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red yellow white spice whats the difference? Options
 
burnt
#1 Posted : 2/8/2011 9:02:24 PM
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So I had a wicked intense dream and I wrote it all down. Here it is:

There are many rumor's flying around about yellow spice, red spice, white spice, pink spice, purple spice, orange spice, upside down spice, sideways and backwards inside out spice. Shocked I think its time we settle the matter of whats the difference between the major forms of spice white, red, and yellow.

First what do I mean by white red and yellow spice. By white spice I mean recrystallized spice purified any number of ways but most commonly A/B and STB. It can be pure white crystals, clear crystals, or crystals with a yellow tinge. By yellow spice I mean an oily substance that is usually what is first obtained from an A/B or STB extract before cleaning it up or recrystallizing. It can also be obtained by evaporating the supernatant from for example from a hexane recrystallization. Others report other ways so please share them if you have them. By red spice I mean what is commonly referred to as jungle spice. This is obtained by A/B or STB but instead of using naptha, hexane, or heptane one uses toluene, xylene, or diethylether. The consistency of both red and yellow spice can vary from very oil and a liquid at room temperature to solid and sometimes even a bit crystalline.

So how do we go about solving this problem of whats in it and possibly why users report different types of experiences. We have the human side and the analytical side. Endlessness has already proposed a double blind protocol which is great. This discussion will focus on the analytical side and I encourage those who have experience with these forms to chime in with how they were prepared or how one can change between the different forms. There are also a number of threads that have touched upon this topic that I would recommend reading if your not familiar:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=10553

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=1115

Experimental

Plant source: Mimosa hostillis

1mg/ml solutions in methanol of each form of spice was prepared. They were analyzed by LC-MS and GC-MS. LC-MS used a methanol water gradient (0.1% formic acid), C18 (reverse phase) column, UV wavelength 254 and 350n nanometers, and atmospheric pressure chemical ionization (scan range 50-1000 atomic mass units). I will skip over the rest of the details for now. They were also analyzed by GC-MS using single quadropole mass spec and chromatography took place in a typical methyl 5% phenyl polysiloxane capillary column. Again I will skip over the details for now but the injector temperature was 290 degrees C and the final oven temperature 300 degrees C.

The LC-MS didn't reveal much but it has certainly lent some important clues which will be useful. Basically the white spice had just dmt, the yellow and red spice had dmt + some impurity which would not ionize because of low concentration. The interesting detail is that the peak area which is a measure of the concentration differed a lot between the white spice and the red and yellow spice. The white spice hard a large peak for dmt and the other 2 had much smaller peaks. This means that the ratio of dmt to other stuff varies quite a lot between white spice and the other 2 forms. It also means that whatever it is it does not absorb UV light at 254 nanometers. If it were an indole alkaloid it would absorb light at 254 nanometers especially if it was in such a considerable concentration.

So this led me to take another look at these samples with GC-MS. Since each solution was in the same concentration I wanted to see again if the peak area for dmt differed. If all 3 solutions had the same amount of dmt you would expect the peak area to be similar and this is indeed what would happen if you injected the same sample over and over again. But again the peak area differed. White spice had the most and red and yellow had less. I will go into a bit more details here because I think its important.

The total ion count (TIC) for dmt in white spice was 86906703 for red spice 42133850 and yellow spice 50814225. So both the red and yellow spice contain about half as much dmt as the white spice. Note such as estimation is very rough and there are better ways to go about figuring that out which can be tried later if necessary. Regardless the ratios will certainly vary between samples depending on how they were prepared and the plant source.

The impurity profile is also interesting. Note that these impurities are only the volatile organic impurities. Anything that doesn't enter gas phase at 290 degrees C or breaks down at such temperatures will not be observed. White spice was about 98% pure. The major impurities appear to be n-methyl-tryptamine (NMT), 2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro carbonline (THCB), an unknown and what appears to be a common contaminant that can come from certain plastics octadecenamide (can't say what isomer). I don't remembering using plastic but who knows these samples are quite old and they were stored in a glass container with a plastic lid so it could have leached from there. Maybe something with plastic was used in extraction procedure or the solvent itself was contaminated. I do not know if this compound is found in plants. Its found in mammals though and interacts with cannabinoid system. Of course the identification could also be incorrect without a reference to check it.

ANYWAY....red spice was about 97% dmt with pretty much exactly the same impurity profile as white. Yellow spice was about 90% dmt with the same impurities plus an additional impurities each about 1%. The two new impurities are a bit interesting as they somewhat resemble phenylethyl amines in their mass spectra such as n-methyl phenylethyl amine and dimethylphenylethyl amine. But again without a reference this cannot be confirmed. The other major impurity in yellow spice about 4% was NMT.

So what does all this mean and what can be done to figure more out? The presence of NMT and THCB both would make sense biosynthetically and I do believe NMT has been reported in mimosa hostillis. The phenyl ethyl amines may also make sense biosynthetically if whatever enzymes alkylates tryptamine can also alkylate (methylate) phenylethylamine. The other impurities I can't be sure about.

What is interesting however is that the volatile components are all very similar between the different kinds of spice. For some reason this batch of yellow spice has the most impurities and it would be interesting to see if that's often the case. But what accounts for the missing mass? If the amount of dmt in the yellow and red spice was truly about half (this measurement can be refined with a more quantitative comparison) then that is the other half? The impurities are not present in high enough concentrations to account for most of the mass. Based on previous data with trimethylsilyated derivitized red spice a fatty acid was detected but again it doesn't appear to be enough to account for the missing mass. There could of course be other fatty acids present and this would indeed make sense. It would be interesting to see if there were more or less fatty acids in defatted preparations versus non defatted.

HOWEVER it does seem that whatever these other impurities are 1- they are not a volatile indole alkaloid. In fact they are probably not an alkaloid at all because they also don't show up at 254 nanometers in LC chromatogram. However whatever it is it should be absorbing visible light otherwise it wouldn't have any color. There is a way to at least identify whether or not there is another impurity that could be separated and observed from the rest of the sample. A more universal detector like evaporative light scattering or thin layer chromatography with some different spray reagents should do the trick. Next time I remember a dream I will post about those experiments. NMR measurements of course would be the golden ticket to figuring this all out.

 

Trippy glass for trippy people.
 
Ljosalfar
#2 Posted : 2/9/2011 12:33:16 AM

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Thank you, burnt!!! Recalling my dreams usually yields much less detail...!
Missing mass indeed - any likelyhood that the mass (fatty acids...?) is psychoactive when vaped/burned? Are there known fatty acids which are active?
Excellent REM work, thanks again - L
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." Richard P. Feynman
 
Ice House
#3 Posted : 2/9/2011 1:30:19 AM

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burnt thanks allot for laying this out like you did. White, Yellow, Orange. and Red.
This dreamer partakes of all of them. I have done enough extractions now that I know exactly each color and I know how to do it not by using a bunch of different solvents.

Naphtha and heptane are all I use and with those two solvents I can get fine crystally white I cand get shiny fine yellow powder I can get big dense orange or amber cystals and I can get red waxy gooey sludge that is highly active. My experience with both of those solvents is that there are three determining factors that decide the color and consistency of my final product. and those are-

How long did I let the solvent soak in bark/base/H2O solution.
How warm was my bark/base/H2o solution and solvent when I am pulling my material.
Did I evap or freeze precipitate or a combo of the two.

Ant combination of these three factors listed above will give me a predictable noticable variation of results.

I must say here I have Zero chem background. I have done so many extractions now(over a hundred) by the monkey see monkey do method that I have learned how to get it right every time. I can now hypothesize or guess why my spice is a certain color or consistency with excellent accuracy.

If you were to tell me- IH do me up a batch of red jungle spice using heptane I could. If you said do a white, orange, or yellow using heptane I could.

I am glad you made this post because I needed someome with some chem experience to fill in the blanks for me with regard to potency.

You stated that the red was 97% DMT and the yellow only 90%. I like the red better but I always assumed it was not as pure. I though the bright yellow shiny powdery spice was much purer and the white being purest.

I would like to be able to provide more info here I just dont have the chem mind to be able to lay out all of my findings. I have considered making a spread sheet or graph depicting the parameters I use to get my different colors of spice.

I NEVER re x. The way I pull and seperate and filter, I never have to worry about contams. I am careful and meticulous. Soooo What comes out of my solvent is what I use. Depending on how it comes out decides how I'm going to use it, ie make changa, use for pharma, or vape via GVG.

I must say that when I pull my solvent I do know in advance how the product is going to come out and that is because of the time and temps I used during the soak. Oh yes and weather I'm going to evap or freeze precip.

I have been wanting to know for a long time what the chemical differences are in the different product I am pulling.

I am convinced I could never tell the difference between 100% pure and 90% pure. I have tested allot of different spice.

Thanks burnt.
Ice House is an alter ego. The threads, postings, replys, statements, stories, and private messages made by Ice House are 100% unadulterated Bull Shit. Every aspect of the Username Ice House is pure fiction. Any likeness to SWIM or any real person is purely coincidental. The creator of Ice House does not condone or participate in any illicit activity what so ever. The makebelieve character known as Ice House is owned and operated by SWIM and should not be used without SWIM's expressed written consent.
 
burnt
#4 Posted : 2/9/2011 8:32:20 AM
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Quote:
Missing mass indeed - any likelyhood that the mass (fatty acids...?) is psychoactive when vaped/burned?


I doubt it. Either way whatever it is doesn't burn until higher then 290 degrees C. So unless your smoking at such a high temperature your not getting it anyway. SWIM notices that when smoking jungle spice in a glass vaporizing pipe some red stuff always oozes around and remains in the pipe.

Quote:
How long did I let the solvent soak in bark/base/H2O solution.
How warm was my bark/base/H2o solution and solvent when I am pulling my material.
Did I evap or freeze precipitate or a combo of the two.


Yep all these things will probably make a difference and it brings up important point. Ratios of dmt to impurities will of course vary depending on how one extracts and the plant material itself.

Quote:
You stated that the red was 97% DMT and the yellow only 90%. I like the red better but I always assumed it was not as pure. I though the bright yellow shiny powdery spice was much purer and the white being purest.


Well this is only the purity with regard to the volatile components. I think there is something left over in the yellow and red spice which is not volatile. Also note that the yellow spice in this specific experiment was very oily almost waxy. It was not crystals with yellow tinge which should be more pure. I need to do some more analysis to get an idea of what that might be. There are a couple ways to go about figuring that one out which hopefully will come in another dream.

 
Shaolin
#5 Posted : 2/9/2011 4:50:54 PM

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Ice House wrote:
I have considered making a spread sheet or graph depicting the parameters I use to get my different colors of spice


Shocked SYNC ! I just googled "online spreadsheets".

Columns:
1. Soaking time* (hours)
2. Temperature** (C/F)
3. Method for obtaining the final product***
4. Product color/shape****

* How long did the solvent soak in bark/base/H2O solution.
** How warm was bark/base/H2o solution and solvent when pulling
*** Evaporation or freeze precipitate or a combo of the two.
**** Red, white, yellow, oily, crystalline,...

I have no idea how many different data you have so I can't do the rows but I would be really glad to see your work.

Just one thing though. You can get "jungle"/"red" with naphtha or heptane ?
Got GVG ? Mhm. Got DMT ?

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MelCat
#6 Posted : 2/9/2011 4:54:38 PM

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Shaolin wrote:
Just one thing though. You can get "jungle"/"red" with naphtha and heptane ?


In my experience, it is possible but you have to heat EVERYTHING up quite a bit.

I prefer the red/jungle that xylene delivers better.
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Shaolin
#7 Posted : 2/9/2011 5:02:27 PM

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Melodic Catastrophe: Can you share some details on that ?

I presume heating "everything" means bark/base/H2o solution and solvent temperature ? How hot are we talking here ?
Got GVG ? Mhm. Got DMT ?

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MelCat
#8 Posted : 2/9/2011 5:36:08 PM

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One of my buddies would consistently get this reddish/orange spice just using naptha.

His secret was to take a gallon jug, put the water in, add the MHRB, then add the naptha and finally top it all off with the lye. This would successfully heat up the solvent and soup and provide him with some pretty exceptional (but not very clean) yields.

He finally took my advice and no longer adds the lye last but more towards the beginning of the extraction and he now gets beautiful white spice.

--

From my own personal extraction experience, I keep the milk jugs warm by keeping them in a sink full of hot water. If I continued an extraction from a previous session, I would boil some water in a very large pot I use for brewing caapi and just set the jug in there for awhile once the water cooled to below boiling. I would then heat up the naptha or xylene and get some really muddy pulls. I then rex the whole messy goop with heptane and end up with beautiful pure crystals on top of a very dense red clump of jungle.
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LandOfOz
#9 Posted : 2/10/2011 4:05:08 AM

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^^^ i once did that for 5 separate extractions. it yielded nearly everything in 20min. but you HAD to re-x(i always do it anyway). i got some wield microbubble base liquid emulsions, nearly black naphtha, naphtha that became semisolid at 25f, LOTS more solid orange dmt. semi transparent. when you add lye, a gas is released. is ti reactive? theres just so many things that would vary chemically.


before you start qualitative testing of different spice colors, you must first prove color has anything to do with the qualitative data.

you need to do this spreadsheet thing, then send the purest purest pure sample of each you have to dancesafe or anyone that does good mail in gcms work. only barrier here is that its like 125usd a sample.

we NEED to know what jungle is. if oxide exists. if yellow orange red is all just diff % of the same compound mixed with dmt, or different chemicals. we need to then use this data to find selective solubility teks and test mounts similar to the % found in the colored dmt product. test under various conditions to find if psychoactive. i would first isolate, then re-add to pure dmt at at the same % it was found in the orig sample. this way you can see if it gives the same effect, and is responsible for the altered psychoactivity. this manner ensures a way to test that wouldnt kill you with a huge dose of something benign at 5% but deadly at 40%(who knows, maybe some kooky neuron shielding via site competition between the dmt and other novel substance is doing on or who knows else). then try a 80% sample(still at the same dose found in the original smokable spice) and so on.

id be happy to read on wiki in 20 years that 'an online community' was responsible for the discovery of these chemicals. there are already like 3 subforums pretty much FULL of threads regarding this. they outnumber the amount of threads involving base liquid contamination. if i had the money id pay for hundreds of samples...
 
Shaolin
#10 Posted : 2/10/2011 10:29:05 AM

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LandOfOz wrote:
to dancesafe or anyone that does good mail in gcms work. only barrier here is that its like 125usd a sample.


EcstasyData (and probably all US sites) can't really offer you all the data due to DEA restrictions [1].

"Because of this, the information we receive from the laboratory testing only includes information about what known substances were found and in what ratios".

Ergo no pioneer work with those.

Also a quote from a BlueLight moderator [2].

"Note though that if they do not have a reference spectrum for you compound, they'll tell you it's an unidentified substance"

So when it comes testing (at least in the US, Switzerland/Spain/Netherlands also have testing programs but you need to be multilingual) good people carry the torch. You know who you are and thank you for that Pleased

[1]http://www.ecstasydata.org/about_data.php
[2]http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=530234
Got GVG ? Mhm. Got DMT ?

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endlessness
#11 Posted : 2/10/2011 10:36:21 AM

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I dont understand what you mean, LandOfOz... Did you read the first post? It IS a gc/ms test of jungle spice, just like this thread:

and regarding the subjective tests, there is this thread which helps laying groundwork for how to do it, I thnk people are good to go, its not like they will be smoking something different for the first time, people have been smoking yellow and red and white spice for years, so I dont see why you think there could be something deadly in it?
 
Nature Boy
#12 Posted : 2/10/2011 2:56:58 PM

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Wow...this is great information. Thank!

To both Burnt and IceHouse...I'd love to hear more! IH...please describe your different methods with more particularity. Time, temp, solvent, ratios of water, bark, base and solvent too, if possible. I know what you mean by the monkey see, monkey do method. I myself fly by the seat of my pants with the only "science" being observation of what works and what doesn't.

In my experience using NaOH and naphtha, early pulls yield white, later pulls which require more time between pulls, result in an increasingly yellow product. Never got a "red" result, no matter how long I waited, but, then again, I never employ heat beyond a few degrees above room temperature.

Best to all,

N.B.
 
burnt
#13 Posted : 2/11/2011 5:08:42 PM
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I honestly don't think analyzing hundreds of samples extracted under slightly different conditions will yield more interesting results. All that will be shown is that ratios of various compounds will vary with dmt predominating in most cases. What would be interesting is to correlate chemical profile with activity. But this is a very difficult thing to do.

The only way to figure out exactly what all impurities are is to isolate them and do the NMR. This is weeks to months of full time work. But compounds like NMT are very obvious as is this beta carboline (although there are some structural things that wouldn't be visible easily in mass spec).

Concerning dmt n oxide. I am really starting to think that dmt n oxide is not a breakdown product of dmt that occurs to any significant degree under natural circumstances. But I would like to look into this a bit more. Currently there is no evidence that I am aware of that dmt n oxide occurs even in very crude preparations like ayahuasca.

The following article attempted to detect dmt n oxide in ayahuasca:

Direct analysis of psychoactive tryptamine and harmala alkaloids in the Amazonian botanical medicine ayahuasca by liquid chromatography-electrospray ionization-tandem mass spectrometry. E.H. McIlhenny et al. Journal of Chromatography A 2009 pages 8960-8968.

They didn't detect any. Wouldn't we expect dmt n oxide to be present in ayahuasca if dmt is boiled for hours in a brew exposed to open air? Its of course possible anti oxidant type compounds in the brew suppress such reactions but still. Dmt n oxide is a well known mammalian metabolite of dmt but doesn't appear to be present in plant material. Are there any papers that have Id'd dmt n oxide in any plant?

The only sort of evidence we have that dmt n oxide might exist is that people have reduced with zinc dust 'yellow' dmt and claimed to have obtained crystals after this. I personally have not gone over all these reports. But perhaps the same result would be obtained with yellow dmt if you just redid acid base and crystallization? There is always going to be some dmt left behind in solvent during recrystallization. So one would never entirely remove the dmt from the preparation without another way of purifying such as chromatography.

But if dmt n oxide is not a common breakdown product of dmt what is? Id imagine dmt splitting into indole and ethyl dimethyl amine might be possible but I'm not really sure. Under what conditions have users noticed a loss in dmt potency?

 
SnozzleBerry
#14 Posted : 2/11/2011 9:14:40 PM

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Dagger wrote:
I know from personal experience that my dmt acetate solution definitely breaks down somehow. It gets weaker and weaker in a matter of weeks. In a couple of months, it may have lost over half of its activity. As soon as I make a new solution, it is back to full strength again. It is actually quite frustrating, in that it is hard to gauge accurate dosage.

Could this have something to do with it being in salt form? When I have done heat conversions of acetate to FB, I have noticed no such loss in potency over time.
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burnt
#15 Posted : 2/12/2011 10:29:14 AM
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Quote:
I know from personal experience that my dmt acetate solution definitely breaks down somehow. It gets weaker and weaker in a matter of weeks. In a couple of months, it may have lost over half of its activity. As soon as I make a new solution, it is back to full strength again. It is actually quite frustrating, in that it is hard to gauge accurate dosage.


How is it stored?

This is kinda info I am curious about. Want to purposely let material degrade and see if a difference can be observed.
 
burnt
#16 Posted : 2/12/2011 7:47:17 PM
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Quote:
It was stored in the fridge. Concentration about 10mg dmt acetate per 1-4ml of liquid. It may be that it degrades faster when there is more air in the container, but am not sure about that.

The weird thing is that I have had containers that have not lost potency for months, then it suddenly starts degrading noticable in weeks. It may be that the more I use from it, the amount of air increases inside the container, and thereby increasing oxidation. I'd love to find out what is causing it and if there is some other acid I could use that would make the solution more resistant to degradation.


Acetates could be more prone to degradation also because of microbial reasons. They may be metabolizing the dmt acetate somehow?

Has anyone noticed a difference in potency and storage with different salt forms?
 
LandOfOz
#17 Posted : 2/13/2011 5:50:30 AM

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sorry burnt i got this and the other thread just like it mixed up when i was posting in them, i did not read the first post until today.

i still do believe that testing of various color concentrations would tell us(when shown against the contam ratio) if the color correlates to which specific contam.

 
burnt
#18 Posted : 2/13/2011 12:02:09 PM
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Quote:
i still do believe that testing of various color concentrations would tell us(when shown against the contam ratio) if the color correlates to which specific contam.


I see what you mean. It might give a general picture. Would require a lot of replicates to see if color reflects impurity profile in a repeatable manner with different sources of plant material and different extraction procedures. Again though a lot of work. Wink
 
dreamer042
#19 Posted : 2/13/2011 5:13:53 PM

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burnt wrote:
Are there any papers that have Id'd dmt n oxide in any plant?


In Trout's Notes on the Genus Desmodium, he mentions several of the plants containing dmt n-oxide.
Also noticed this little snippet at the beginning re the zinc reduction

trout wrote:

While numerous of their many contained alkaloids
are known to be pharmacologically active,
only 4 are active as entheogens. Hallucinogenic
activity has been proven only for DMT and 5-
MeO-DMT and their N-oxides . These water
soluble N-oxides are converted to their parent
compounds when smoked [or they can be dissolved
in acetic acid and reduced to their parents
by adding an excess of zinc dust (stir for ~30
minutes then neutralize the acid with base and
recover with a nonpolar solvent)]


http://trout.yage.net/sc/D2_2004_Trout.pdf
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Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
Ice House
#20 Posted : 2/13/2011 9:55:00 PM

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Nature Boy wrote:
IH...please describe your different methods with more particularity. Time, temp, solvent, ratios of water, bark, base and solvent too, if possible. I

In my experience using NaOH and naphtha, early pulls yield white, later pulls which require more time between pulls, result in an increasingly yellow product. Never got a "red" result, no matter how long I waited, but, then again, I never employ heat beyond a few degrees above room temperature.

Best to all,

N.B.


I had a couple cans of bestine laying around for reX. I decided to use it as my solvent to pull spice from my MHRB,H2O,NaOH slurry. I had run out of Naphtha, I had never pulled with bestine before. I added 150ml of bestine to a half gallon mason jar that contained my basic slurry. There was 350g of powderized MHRB 350g of NaOH and water to just shy of the top of the jar. I left just enough room for my solvent. The first pull I let this sit in a nice dark warm place,(80degF) for about two months? + or -

I pulled my solvent off and it was a very nice amber red color. I did a slow evap of this and ended up with very dense orange crystals here is some pictures. If you look at the last pic in that post there is a nice reddish orange waxy spice.

I was under the impression that bestine pulled white stuff, isnt that why we use it to reX?

Well after that first pull I did the 2d 3d and 4th pulls much faster again with bestine and put em in the freezer and got white crystals with pull 2 and yellow with three and four.

I'm having allot of fun with this. Learning allot.
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