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Geometry of DMT crystals Options
 
Pscientist
#141 Posted : 8/2/2012 6:02:39 PM

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I in no way read the entire thread, I read a lot of the discussion regarding crystals, storing information and the potential differences in experience regarding DMT crystal structure.

Firstly, I tend to err on the side of science, I believe once vaporized it is all DMT molecules however I believe there are intrinsic properties that can be duplicated among crystals, thereby storing information due to imperfections caused by the environment (early mutations of crystal structures). This is the proposed crystal theory of the origin of life , essentially that DNA may have somehow arisen from replicating crystal structures, and many imperfections over vast time created an arrangement of molecules that somehow formed RNA-->DNA.

Most importantly is the fact that tiny imperfections in crystals are repeated due to the nature of the formation of crystals, and this may affect the "information" stored within the crystal be it DMT or carbon and how the rest of the crystal may interact with its environment.

Richard Dawkins explains this theory of the origin of life much better than I can in "The Blind Watchmaker" if anyone's interested.


In short, I think crystals may potentially have the ability to store information about their formation (and who knows what else) apart from the molecular structure that comprises the crystal. The arrangement makes the structure, but the structure determines the information.

This is all speculation, just thought I would contribute my 2c.
 

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CaptainFuture
#142 Posted : 9/16/2012 8:28:05 PM

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Eliyahu
#143 Posted : 9/16/2012 11:45:16 PM
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This is crazy synronicity because I was just recently noticing that there seemed to be somthing about the diamond shaped crystals....

I got diamonds by slow evap re-exing using naptha..

Peace!


EDIT: I can't believe I never really noticed this thread until now.... it's really facinating..

The first logical questions I have, that come to mind are.....

assuming there is some type of "information" in the crystal

how does the molecule store information after the crystals have been crushed?

I don't need a scientific explanation but I just wonder where the information is stored so to speak?

And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not percieve the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "brother let me remove the speck from your eye", when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye?-Yeshua ben Yoseph
 
benzyme
#144 Posted : 9/16/2012 11:52:44 PM

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wonder if anyone has done a m.p. test on crystals...

what m.p. range has been noted?
I've noted 41 - 44 C.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
olderROM
#145 Posted : 9/21/2012 9:37:48 PM

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benzyme wrote:
wonder if anyone has done a m.p. test on crystals...

what m.p. range has been noted?
I've noted 41 - 44 C.


Some Simple Tryptamines: Keeper of the Trout & Friends 2nd Ed.
ISBN 9780977087655

That book has a list of about 16 references between
44C-49
with most around 47

There's one reference lower @ 39-44C and...
about 5 higher up to 67C
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benzyme
#146 Posted : 9/22/2012 9:05:43 PM

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yes, I know it's been referenced in lit.
I'm talking about our members Big grin
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
CaptainFuture
#147 Posted : 10/24/2012 1:53:05 AM

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Eliyahu wrote:

This is crazy synronicity because I was just recently noticing that there seemed to be somthing about the diamond shaped crystals....

I got diamonds by slow evap re-exing using naptha..

Peace!


EDIT: I can't believe I never really noticed this thread until now.... it's really facinating..

The first logical questions I have, that come to mind are.....

assuming there is some type of "information" in the crystal

how does the molecule store information after the crystals have been crushed?

I don't need a scientific explanation but I just wonder where the information is stored so to speak?




I really can't tell with my mind, its just that spiritually there is a difference.

Good to ask this question since that way the thread got bumped back to the top.
Cause after being printed on a poster at a dutch entheogenic conference recently my crstal grows seem to be quite a thing to share.

Much love, my fellow beings and take care,
Cap
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Rising Spirit
#148 Posted : 10/25/2012 4:56:31 AM

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Thank you brother. I was wondering if you've grown any more "diamonds"? Have you been successful in re-creating their Sacred geometry? If so, can you point out some of the primary enhanced aspects you perceive from vaporizing the diamond-shaped, crystalline geometric variants of NN-DMT? Thanks again for sharing your extraordinary experience!
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benzyme
#149 Posted : 10/26/2012 5:38:58 AM

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CaptainFuture wrote:

All this talk about energy being locked up in diamond crystals doesn't make sense.
Well, thats your opinion. There definitely is energy in crystals. F.e. piezo in quartz crystals. Guess why you're CPU works for you?


you're comparing the conversion of electrical-mechanical energy to intramolecular energy in crystal formation? not an accurate comparison.

DMT crystals favor the lowest internal energy (equilibrium) of formation, exciting them does nothing for enhancing purity. it causes them to melt.

as was mentioned by Infundibulum and OlderROM's attachment, DMT has rotatable bonds flanking the alpha and beta carbons (this is not necessarily unique to DMT, it's inherent to tryptamine), thus it's possible for various crystal formations, no formation any more pure than others.perhaps this is why there are several mp/bp ranges reported.


benzyme attached the following image(s):
CID_6089.png (26kb) downloaded 632 time(s).
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
endlessness
#150 Posted : 10/26/2012 10:48:19 AM

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Can the differently-rotated bonds result in different binding to receptors and therefore changes in pharmacology?
 
Infundibulum
#151 Posted : 10/26/2012 11:53:27 AM

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endlessness wrote:
Can the differently-rotated bonds result in different binding to receptors and therefore changes in pharmacology?

Not really, because these differently-rotated are only fixed in a crystal structure; in solution however you get all the possible combinations as the bonds are freely to rotate as they please.

A crystal can have, as mentioned by benzyme, different melting temperatures owning to how the molecules are fixed in it, so it is possible that some crystal structures to appear "more active" per weight if they have the tendency to vaporise easier than others.

In a way it is fun to speculate, but let us not forget that we are speculating over CaptenFuture's subjective, non-blind, non-controlled and biased reports that the diamond crystals provide a "different" experience. In a way we're mentally masturbating over poor, unconfirmed rumours.


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CaptainFuture
#152 Posted : 5/7/2013 7:29:38 AM

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Quote:
In a way it is fun to speculate, but let us not forget that we are speculating over CaptenFuture's subjective, non-blind, non-controlled and biased reports that the diamond crystals provide a "different" experience. In a way we're mentally masturbating over poor, unconfirmed rumours.


Yeah, thats why I motivated everyone to start growing crystals and trying to crystalize diamonds out of it.

I am meanwhile pretty sure that its a matter of purity to form them. They always showed up with the lime-tek extracts. And they were always the purest I've got out.

I haven't smoked DMT in a while but when the whole topic started were doing it a few times a week, so I did not easily wrote about my experiences with the solid crystals.

Anyway, just wanted to bump up the thread again, I guess. Smile
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kiang
#153 Posted : 6/3/2013 9:47:05 AM
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I didn't read the entire thread and dont't know if this was brought up to the conversation, but if I may add..

As a geologist, I learned that real diamonds are formed in high temperature and very high pressure locations underground the earths crust. Generally they are very pure materials based on the carbon element. The higher the purity, the higher the hardness and density of the crystal. Graphite as you know is also carbon but the molecular \ atom structure is not aligned in the optimal way for best hardness, but aligned good enough for it to be stable at the temperature and pressure where it was formed. Diamonds at normal pressure and temperature are not stable, but need millions of years to transform to graphite.. for example.

My case is that I would suggest to make a experiment to see if crystal structure of DMT would change depending the pressure and temperature condition. Temperature must be low for the crystals to precipitate, right? But maybe putting more pressure would add a new condition.

Maybe the fact that the crystals are formed at different atmospheric pressure caused in the summer vs winter times, do make a difference in the crystal structure formation. I'm thinking about a bottle that was slightly heated and then filled with solvent with dmt. Bottle would be closed and put inside the friezer(?) to precipitate. This would create a negative pressure (in relation to normal atmospheric pressure) and cause maybe more fluffy crystals. It would be interesting to have a control outside, precipitating also at low temperature but normal pressure.

High pressure -> denser structure aka diamonds , Low pressure -> less dense structure aka fluffy crystals.


 
joshisom
#154 Posted : 6/3/2013 8:31:07 PM
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DMT is such a sacred chemical i definatly feel that some batches have a greater spirit inside them i had 3 different type of crystals and each one consistently provides a different experience and im not talking about intensity and of coarse it cannot be scientifically explained im mean common trying to explain profound experiences scienfically is just silly IMHO explain why 2 people can share the exact same experience together. with psycho actives ther is more than meats the eye
 
SKA
#155 Posted : 6/4/2013 8:17:06 PM
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kiang wrote:
I didn't read the entire thread and dont't know if this was brought up to the conversation, but if I may add..

As a geologist, I learned that real diamonds are formed in high temperature and very high pressure locations underground the earths crust. Generally they are very pure materials based on the carbon element. The higher the purity, the higher the hardness and density of the crystal. Graphite as you know is also carbon but the molecular \ atom structure is not aligned in the optimal way for best hardness, but aligned good enough for it to be stable at the temperature and pressure where it was formed. Diamonds at normal pressure and temperature are not stable, but need millions of years to transform to graphite.. for example.

My case is that I would suggest to make a experiment to see if crystal structure of DMT would change depending the pressure and temperature condition. Temperature must be low for the crystals to precipitate, right? But maybe putting more pressure would add a new condition.

Maybe the fact that the crystals are formed at different atmospheric pressure caused in the summer vs winter times, do make a difference in the crystal structure formation. I'm thinking about a bottle that was slightly heated and then filled with solvent with dmt. Bottle would be closed and put inside the friezer(?) to precipitate. This would create a negative pressure (in relation to normal atmospheric pressure) and cause maybe more fluffy crystals. It would be interesting to have a control outside, precipitating also at low temperature but normal pressure.

High pressure -> denser structure aka diamonds , Low pressure -> less dense structure aka fluffy crystals.




Fascinating. Defenitely like the negative pressure-experiment you proposed.
With Negative pressure I guess you mean a partial vacuum?

I'm guessing, since the density would be much lower, the fluffy crystals might make them alot more active than dense dmt crystals, having alot more surface area then dense crystals.
I guess that fluffy structure would distribute applied heat much more evenly and vaporise alot faster and more completely.


By this logic, if you were to evaporate a DMT-saturated solvent in a high pressure enviroment(relative to ambient pressure levels), you should get very dense, hard DMT crystals, right? Great to know that pressure affects crystal density.
Is pressure also the sole influence on the crystal's shape?
Or are there other factors involved in the shape of growing Crystals?(Other than purity)
 
keleblin
#156 Posted : 9/7/2013 1:13:36 AM

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kiang wrote:
I didn't read the entire thread and dont't know if this was brought up to the conversation, but if I may add..

As a geologist, I learned that real diamonds are formed in high temperature and very high pressure locations underground the earths crust. Generally they are very pure materials based on the carbon element. The higher the purity, the higher the hardness and density of the crystal. Graphite as you know is also carbon but the molecular \ atom structure is not aligned in the optimal way for best hardness, but aligned good enough for it to be stable at the temperature and pressure where it was formed. Diamonds at normal pressure and temperature are not stable, but need millions of years to transform to graphite.. for example.



Despite the fact that these crystals are diamond shaped, rather than the more traditional tabular-acicular forms you normally see with DMT, they're still monoclinic crystals with 2/m symmetry.

In fact, Falkenberg lists DMT as being capable of of two point modifications within the P2/m space group. If anyone has access to this full article, it might explain the exact crystallization differences in DMT. Unfortunately, I only have access to papers going back to 1997.

<= igneous petrology student
 
glorf
#157 Posted : 9/8/2013 10:40:06 PM
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keleblin wrote:
In fact, Falkenberg lists DMT as being capable of of two point modifications within the P2/m space group. If anyone has access to this full article


apologies for not doing a proper, more searchable citation
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...amp;m=272525#post272525

but unless it's a weird tor (running noscript) ip thing, you can download the full pdf from your link like i just did. it asked for a login before. it might be temporary access either way.
 
keleblin
#158 Posted : 9/9/2013 4:36:00 AM

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Awesome! Thanks for linking to that.

This makes me wish I was posting here when I was doing x-ray crystallography. That would've been fun.
 
keleblin
#159 Posted : 9/9/2013 10:23:29 PM

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Apologies for the double post, but I got reading that article, and after doing a search on DMT polymorphism, I found this thread (and the article contained within): https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=42590 where DMT is confirmed to have two distinct polymorphs. This leads me to two questions:

#1, in regard to CaptainFuture and anyone else who might have grown diamond-like DMT crystals as well as normal tabular crystals: did your 'diamond' crystals come from the same batch of MHRB that produced the tabular crystals, and if so, how fresh was the MHRB when you got the diamonds as opposed to when you got the tabulars?

#2, to the organic chemists: according to Falkenberg, the polymorphism is a result of a difference in interatomic bond angle between Carbon atom 11 - Nitrogen atom 12, and between Carbon atom 14 and its associated hydrogen atoms (14 a, b, and c) (image attached). What would cause that change in bond angle? Most of my expertise in crystal chemistry deals with inorganic mineral formation involving high heat and pressure (on the order of mega/giga pascals).
keleblin attached the following image(s):
dmt interatomic angles.jpg (162kb) downloaded 302 time(s).
 
Kohan
#160 Posted : 9/10/2013 8:52:02 AM
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Yeah only read the start of the tread, skipped the whole thing... turned into a massive ego trip instead of getting to work and playing with crystals...silly kids.

I need to say WOW diamonds Drool

May i add a tip for crystals growing if done in a fridge\freezer; you don't want any vibrations from the fridge running, A book on top of 6inch of bathroom towel (level the top flat surface) will help anyone to cut out any vibrations to interfere with the growing, as vibrations will make inconstancy in your geometry work. Of course cover with a dome to protect from inside subtle wind, with invisible matter growing into a visible crystal, the slightest wind will hinders your work.


Much love
 
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