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Cannabis cross tolerance with tryptamines.. Options
 
jamie
#1 Posted : 1/24/2011 8:05:46 PM

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I have noticed this recently since I have been using cannabis every night. It is harder for me to reach a full breakthrough with DMT and I need a higher dose of other tryptamines as well..I also feel somewhat more drained in general..

I am not looking specifically for stories of how people smoke cannabis all day and still have DMT breakthroughs, unless they have also stopped smoking cannabis for a significant period of time and continued to use DMT so they also have that other point of view. I stopped smoking cannabis for about 6 months basically..I only smoked every month or every 2 months for that period of time..and then maybe 2 times a month for another 6 months or more. Durring this period of time I felt like I regained a sort of life energy that years of extremely heavy cannabis use had drained from me. Using cannabis very infrequently is something I find useful without these other negative side effects. DMT became much more clear and clean durring this period of time away from cannabis as well..and breakthroughs became more and more frequent with lower doses..I became more sensitive to tryptamines..and I was using DMT like 4-5 days a week.

Now though I feel like Im starting to build some sort of cross tolerance to DMT and other tryptamines from daily cannabis use. I can still breakthrough but it takes more to get there and it is frustrating. It is not just me either, minxx has noticed the same thing in the last few weeks since we started smoking eveyr single night..It also seems to mess with my sleep and I wake up more tired.

I have read others who started threads about this in the past..Now I am just wondering why this happens? I know that melatonin in released in large ammounts after cannabis use and then is eliminated through the urin..so frequent use could effectivly deplete one of melatonin eventaully..and then pinoline I would assume..also with the huge flood of melatonin after smoking does the body then build a slight tolerance to melatonin, and then does that form a cross tolerane to other tryptamines?

It is interesting becasue I heard others mention this about cannabis and DMT in the past, but I didnt understand it since I was smoking so much pot when I began smoking DMT so that was my only reference point. Now though I have this other refernce from how it was when I was not smoking cannabis all the time..either way it doesnt seem worth it to me anymore to keep smoking daily at all..1-4 times a month seems ok. It is just not worth the negative way it seems to impact and disrupt my relationship to DMT, and makes me feel soo drained.
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polytrip
#2 Posted : 1/24/2011 8:38:58 PM
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This could be related to the phenomenon that cannabis get's less and less psychedelic when used frequently.
Cannabis is definately a psychedelic substance, that in many ways has something in common to the typical psychedelic substances like LSD and DMT, although it has it's differences as well.

I'm intrigued by this and this is also why a while ago a started the 'in what category falls cannabis' thread: because i'd like to know how exactly it is related to classic hallucinogens. What causes cannabis to have those 'typical/classic' psychedelic effects?

It seems to be unrelated to it's sedative effects, because tolerance for those do not increase with the same pace AND people often notice that some strains of cannabis are very sedating while others are more psychedelic, and even that some strains of cannabis can diminish the psychedelic effects of others.

It is a fact that cannabis affects cannabinoidreceptors that are numbered 1 and 2 and affection of one of them leads to more psychedelic effects and the other to more sedating effects.
I don't know if it also affects other, yet unknown receptors or whether it has unknown affinity for other recptors.

If not, than the activity on the 'psychedelic receptor' must through this receptor have an effect on the activity of other neurotransmitter systems related to psychedelic effects. Maybe because the endocannabinoid system is a stressregulating system, so it could regulate activity in other systems?
 
polytrip
#3 Posted : 1/24/2011 8:49:18 PM
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I also like to add, that i find that there is a some sort of simmilarity cannabis has with iboga.
In many ways there are major differences ofcourse, especially in relation to it's pharmacological effects: cannabis diminishes acetylcholine while ibogaine increases it, cannabis is addictive while ibogaine helps with the treatment of addictions, etc.
But there is something to it that's very simmilar to ibogaine's effects (in low doses that is), that's very hard to describe yet very apparent in a way.
 
Simplistic Randamonium
#4 Posted : 1/24/2011 9:22:23 PM

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wait...
im sorry but i have to speak...
ok so anything can be over done but i would say thats more tword a personality type.
i feel i can say this because i have first hand been through it.
years of every day smoke to none at all for well over a year and noticed no effects that i would relate to addiction.
i have been hella strung on oxycodone and alprazolame and trust me i know addiction.
herb is my most helpful medicine and has truly allowed me to live a normal life outside of the hospital.
i dont mean to be combative, i was just shocked to see the words marijuana and addictive together....
i thought every one knew better by now.

peace
if u made it this far you are a champ, and although we may never meet you are also my friend.
S.R.
 
jamie
#5 Posted : 1/24/2011 9:59:20 PM

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ok can we please not pollute this thread with people arguing over cannabis addiction. We have been down that road before and like it or not the studies are out there and if you want to discuss it any more start your own thread. The point of this thread is not for people to prove how addicted they were to opiates etc and then compare that to cannabis. Thank you.
Long live the unwoke.
 
imPsimon
#6 Posted : 1/24/2011 10:28:29 PM

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Can CBD play a role in it?
I wonder what would happen if one where to take just CBD during a trip.
It's definitely a potent anti psychotic, maybe there's some kind of accumulation
of cbd when smoking often.

...this is just wild speculation though so feel free to butcher me=)
 
jamie
#7 Posted : 1/24/2011 10:32:56 PM

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who knows..CBD downregulates some of the overstimulation etc from THC, which is why alot of people dont like pure THC as opposed to a balanced strain of cannabis..maybe it can linger in the system and downregulate psychedelic effects of tryptamines..I a not a neuropharmacologist though so I cant say.
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DMTripper
#8 Posted : 1/25/2011 12:41:40 AM

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I need to stay off cannabis for 1-2 months to be able to break through if I've been smoking cannabis regularly.
And smoking cannabis frequently makes me very tired and I can get ill tempered. Smoking just once a week makes it hard for me to break through with DMT.
I try not to smoke cannabis more than 1-2 times a month. And I find that a challenge because it's so damn addictive for ME!
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Ljosalfar
#9 Posted : 1/25/2011 1:22:04 AM

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Fractal E
Quote:
I also feel somewhat more drained in general..

DMTripper
Quote:
And smoking cannabis frequently makes me very tired and I can get ill tempered.


Yes.
Cannabis is frequently draining and occluding. In SWIM's experience, generally the high and mild dissociation of cannabis, while often therapeutic and pleasant, is not resonant with or supportive of the high clarity and deeply observant nature of tryptamines.
Cannabis is of course immensely popular... SWIM feels that the draining, occluding effects are often overlooked or worse, not treated honestly. Perhaps more time devoted to integration of all plant ally experiences would be beneficial.

L

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." Richard P. Feynman
 
Simplistic Randamonium
#10 Posted : 1/25/2011 2:06:09 PM

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alright.
i thought this was a place to disscuse opinions and i have mine.
i was under the impression that i could do that here.
its not my fault that you may not like what i have to say.
does your different view disscount mine?
i certainly feel that mine does not yours.
im just saying that ANYTHING can be over done.
i would rather read how some one has a PERSONAL addiction to marijuana.
this i can understand.
to say marijuana IS addictive seems like a blanket statment.
we as humans make choices and i can not respect any attempet to deminish our responsibility
for our actions.

im wondering if my smoking is going to jade my spice journys



but if my imput is polution and wasted then i guess i will leave you to you conjecture...





if u made it this far you are a champ, and although we may never meet you are also my friend.
S.R.
 
polytrip
#11 Posted : 1/25/2011 3:14:57 PM
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I'm thinking..we know that DMT, LSD, mescaline and all the other typical hallucinogens diminish serotonergic activity: these molecules bind to a serotonin receptor and stimulate it in such a way that the brain thinks :"this serotonergic system is being too active, i've gotta reduce it's activity somewhat", and then the amount of serotonin receptors is being downregulated.

Cannabis doesn't bind to 5-ht-2 receptors as far as i know. But the endocannabinoid system does have the function to reduce stress and overactivity of the brain.

Maybe cannabis also downregulates these receptors somewhat, or otherwise decreases the activity of the serotonergic system.

That could explain a cross-tolerance, because in that case, maybe the brain becomes a bit numb for these 'alarm, too much serotonin!!!' signals.

Another thing could be the cross tolerance people report between cannabis and opiates. DMT leads to the release of endorphines. It could be that if you're becoming a bit more tolerant to endorphines, that realy does take something away from the total DMT-experience.

It remains weird: people rate cannabis as a psychedelic, a sedative and a dissociative drug and it has cross tolerance with opiates and psychedelic's. As if it's some substance that's right in the middle of everything.
That's also why i tend to see it as a dissociative drug in the first place. Because like dissociatives, it sit's right in between sedative and psychedelic drugs.

Edit: cannabis IS a substance with a high potential for addiction. That's just a fact. Doesn't mean that cannabis use is irresponsible or that anybody who smokes it becomes addicted. It simply says that it has a high chance of becoming habitual.
If you're not addicted yourself, you must be able to find some time and mental focus to read something about the endocannabinoïd system so you can see this for yourself.
 
gibran2
#12 Posted : 1/25/2011 3:23:53 PM

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polytrip wrote:
I'm thinking..we know that DMT, LSD, mescaline and all the other typical hallucinogens diminish serotonergic activity: these molecules bind to a serotonin receptor and stimulate it in such a way that the brain thinks :"this serotonergic system is being too active, i've gotta reduce it's activity somewhat", and then the amount of serotonin receptors is being downregulated.

...

Is that true for DMT? I thought that Strassman’s work showed that there is no tolerance built up with regular/frequent DMT use. If DMT was causing downregulation of serotonin receptors, and if DMT’s primary effects are on serotonin receptors, wouldn’t one develop a tolerance over time?
gibran2 is a fictional character. Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.
 
polytrip
#13 Posted : 1/25/2011 3:49:49 PM
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gibran2 wrote:
polytrip wrote:
I'm thinking..we know that DMT, LSD, mescaline and all the other typical hallucinogens diminish serotonergic activity: these molecules bind to a serotonin receptor and stimulate it in such a way that the brain thinks :"this serotonergic system is being too active, i've gotta reduce it's activity somewhat", and then the amount of serotonin receptors is being downregulated.

...

Is that true for DMT? I thought that Strassman’s work showed that there is no tolerance built up with regular/frequent DMT use. If DMT was causing downregulation of serotonin receptors, and if DMT’s primary effects are on serotonin receptors, wouldn’t one develop a tolerance over time?

I don't know if that would nessecarily mean that you'd devellop tolerance for it that lasts for long enough to speak of.
All the classic hallucinogens cause downregulation of serotonin receptors, but the duration of their effects differs.
It could be that tolerance does build up with frequent DMT use, but that it's just too minimal to notice. It could also be that it just lasts very shortly.

I'm not sure either if many years of very regular (like daily) use of DMT would not lead to even a tiny bit of tolerance. If it builds up very slowly, the user would probably not notice it immediately and i don't know if strassman ever examined people who've taken DMT for that long with that frequency.
 
Lunaria
#14 Posted : 1/25/2011 4:11:46 PM
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I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, but from what I understand CBD has been shown to be a 5-HT1A agonist, which definitely sounds like a good enough reason for it to cross-tolerate to me. And I can definitely attest to the fact that smoking often will reduce overall impact of psychedelics.
 
jamie
#15 Posted : 1/25/2011 6:25:07 PM

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Simplistic Randamonium wrote:
alright.
i thought this was a place to disscuse opinions and i have mine.
i was under the impression that i could do that here.
its not my fault that you may not like what i have to say.
does your different view disscount mine?
i certainly feel that mine does not yours.
im just saying that ANYTHING can be over done.
i would rather read how some one has a PERSONAL addiction to marijuana.
this i can understand.
to say marijuana IS addictive seems like a blanket statment.
we as humans make choices and i can not respect any attempet to deminish our responsibility
for our actions.

im wondering if my smoking is going to jade my spice journys



but if my imput is polution and wasted then i guess i will leave you to you conjecture...





Ok..dont take it so personally. If you had been here in the past you would have seen how this topic has come up again and again and both sides have been discussed and it ends up just filling up threads with the topic. Thats why I would rather have a seperate topic to discuss the topic of cannabis and addiction. it has nothign to do with not wanting to hear another side to the story. I just would rather discuss the topic of cannabis and cross tolerance in this thread.

Long live the unwoke.
 
jamie
#16 Posted : 1/25/2011 6:41:54 PM

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Lunaria wrote:
I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, but from what I understand CBD has been shown to be a 5-HT1A agonist, which definitely sounds like a good enough reason for it to cross-tolerate to me. And I can definitely attest to the fact that smoking often will reduce overall impact of psychedelics.


That is very interesting..I didnt know that about CBD..thanks.
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Lunaria
#17 Posted : 1/25/2011 7:48:28 PM
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No problem, I was just reading through the abstract again and found this interesting line, I wonder if any more research has been done into it....

Quote:
Preliminary comparative data is also presented from the cloned rat 5-HT2a receptor suggesting that CBD is active, but less so, relative to the human 5-HT1a receptor, in binding analyses. Overall, these studies demonstrate that CBD is a modest affinity agonist at the human 5-HT1a receptor. Additional work is required to compare CBD’s potential at other serotonin receptors and in other species.

 
polytrip
#18 Posted : 1/25/2011 8:48:59 PM
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This is interesting stuff. It would surely explain why i always felt (and many others on the nexus with me) that there is a strong overlap between cannabis and the classic hallucinogens.
So...you keep learning new stuff here on the nexus.Smile
 
I am.
#19 Posted : 1/26/2011 3:54:06 AM

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i know that IME (and the experience of those around me), pot really does take a chunk out of dmt. ANY psychedelic, for that matter, IME. during periods when i was not smoking pot (or at least not much at all), the trips were more profound and clearer. now, with daily abuse, it's harder and harder to get off. with spice, it takes more (sometimes twice the normal) and with lsd it's just a lot less vivid of an experience. also takes more to completely lose my head on acid if i've been smoking.
embrace your nothingness...it's all you are...
 
jamie
#20 Posted : 1/26/2011 4:30:08 AM

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So I did not smoke last night at all..so that gave me 24 full hours away from cannabis, and keep in mind I was only smoking usually once every night. Last night I drank 50g worth of a caapi only ayahuasca brew. I drank it at around 12:30 I am guessing and was real tired. I was in and out of some deep visions until 5am when I finally just slept until 9am. caapi always resets my entire system it seems and erases tolerance to mushroom, bufotenine, mescaline..whatever..

I smoked this morning just after I woke up..and trust me, there was no tolerance or resistance to the DMT at all! The breakthrough was effortless and the trance was sooo clean, clear and crisp. It is interesting how ayahuasca and prob rue and harmalas themselves are capable of having this effect..almost as if you have this "reset" button that harmalas push..

So anyone feeling that cannabis burnout or cross tolerance etc..cutting out the cannabis for a period of time and rebooting with a decent dose of caapi might help you.

I also do not prefer to smoke cannabis durring the afterglow of mushrooms or ayahuasca becasue I find it cancels out the postive life affirming effects that both seem to have for me on my system in the wake of the experience the following days..really I can do without cannabis on a regular basis. I love the clarity that comes after tryptamines and harmalas and I hate the fact that cannabis compromises that for me.

I love cannabis..just that my days of being tethered to it seem to have ended long ago. I cant go back to that place and feel like Im not building a wall within myself. It wont lend itself to me that way anymore. It feels the best no more than 2-4 times a month.
Long live the unwoke.
 
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