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THH has MAOI + SSRI properties =Possibly Neurotoxic? Options
 
Observant
#1 Posted : 1/10/2011 2:54:22 PM

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We now know 69rons stuff wasnt THH but Harmine.
So still , not very much is known about the actual effects of pure THH.

It came to my mind , do you think high doses are risky in regard of what the Thread title implies?
Maybe its a bad idea to combine THH with other strong mao inhibitors Wut?

http://www.erowid.org/li...ya_sec1_thh_pharm.shtml

Just a thought..

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Had he more quickly realized just who they were,he would have shown them more respect.Had he tried harder to fathom their brilliant minds,he would have taken more of their teachings to heart.Had he more clearly understood the purpose of their being,
he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
They were exceedingly well informed; he was grossly ignorant.They were totally indefatigable; he so often, and so quickly,gave up. Still, for many years there was a strong inter-species alliance between the Eleven-Eleven of the Half-way Realm, their Seraphic Associates,and their flesh-and-blood friend, a common mortal. Much was accomplished, many profited, and, there’s only one regret...They could have achieved so much more...

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Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
endlessness
#2 Posted : 1/10/2011 3:07:23 PM

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Are you asking if theoretically taking extremely large doses of pure THH being neurotoxic? Or if it could be neurotoxic in normal or even high doses taken for our normal psychedelic purpouses (as in, ayahuasca/pharma and so on..) ?

If THH was neurotoxic in any reasonable dose dont you think we would have known from all the ayahuasca investigations?

Also notice that THH by itself is a very weak SSRI, nothing compared to pharmaceutical ones, which would definitely be dangerous to consume together with MAOIs

(just putting some questions out there so that we think, I dont have answers, I think its important that you question about it btw)
 
Bancopuma
#3 Posted : 1/10/2011 3:51:30 PM

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I think there would be some evidence for this if it were so. The points endlessness make are all valid, I think any risk of neurotoxicity would come with extremely high doses. Some people have also combined caapi with Iboga which exerts stronger SSRI effects and reported only positive results.

The risk of neurotoxicity from harmaline and Ibogaine does appear to be valid, but again I think this risk comes with highly excessive doses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8377927
 
Observant
#4 Posted : 1/10/2011 4:06:40 PM

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I was thinking about my own future experimentation with real THH .
I honestly dont think THH by itself is very neurotoxic , but it sure has its unique kind of effects on the brain.

I really dont know how much of an SSRI THH is , it seems to be a weaker or shorter acting one than the pharmaceutical ones ,but then those are also taken on a daily basis -do you have a source for ?

Could it be that THH doesnt go well with Harmaline? As in Rue + Caapi Combinations , or maybe also Black Caapi ?
Maybe there is more risk of Serotonin Syndrome like synergetic effects (some people might be more sensitive than others)


Bancopuma, I havent read many reports on Harmalas with Iboga up to Now , Links would be highly apreciated!
Had he more quickly realized just who they were,he would have shown them more respect.Had he tried harder to fathom their brilliant minds,he would have taken more of their teachings to heart.Had he more clearly understood the purpose of their being,
he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
They were exceedingly well informed; he was grossly ignorant.They were totally indefatigable; he so often, and so quickly,gave up. Still, for many years there was a strong inter-species alliance between the Eleven-Eleven of the Half-way Realm, their Seraphic Associates,and their flesh-and-blood friend, a common mortal. Much was accomplished, many profited, and, there’s only one regret...They could have achieved so much more...

All Hypnotizing Hypnotizes Hypnotizing
 
SnozzleBerry
#5 Posted : 1/10/2011 4:32:51 PM

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Observant wrote:
Could it be that THH doesnt go well with Harmaline? As in Rue + Caapi Combinations , or maybe also Black Caapi ?
Maybe there is more risk of Serotonin Syndrome like synergetic effects (some people might be more sensitive than others)

Don't really get what you're saying here...many strains of caapi have significant levels of THH, Harmine and Harmaline in em. Also, where is this risk of Serotonin Syndrome you keep mentioning coming from? AFAIK that doesn't apply to standalone use of RIMAs, but I could be missing something in my reading of this thread and muttering irrelevancies in the corner over here.
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gibran2
#6 Posted : 1/10/2011 4:49:43 PM

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Observant wrote:
I was thinking about my own future experimentation with real THH .
I honestly dont think THH by itself is very neurotoxic , but it sure has its unique kind of effects on the brain.

...

Could it be that THH doesnt go well with Harmaline? As in Rue + Caapi Combinations , or maybe also Black Caapi ?
Maybe there is more risk of Serotonin Syndrome like synergetic effects (some people might be more sensitive than others)

Where will you be getting real THH? (Or did you just mean that you plan on using caapi – a natural source of THH?)

Also, you single out black caapi. Why?
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Observant
#7 Posted : 1/10/2011 5:05:44 PM

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I know you are one of the few people here who experimented with the black caapi variety ,gibran2, i personally havent .
A recent trip report on here contained rantings of an amazonian shaman who said Black Caapi is used by the Brujos on the other side of the river ; ) What would you say is the difference between the black caapi and the white variety for example? Someone claimed it had a higher concentration of harmaline , or is there another difference ?

I hope to be getting pure synthetic THH from a reliable source at some time in the future .
I also wonder if it feels more similiar to harmine or Moclobemide , or more like an ssri , especially after a few days of use.

Snozzleberry , my thought came from the fact that tetrahydro harmaloids have some Serotonin reuptake inhibitor effects
and SSRI + maoi as a combination of different drugs is contraindicated ...

Had he more quickly realized just who they were,he would have shown them more respect.Had he tried harder to fathom their brilliant minds,he would have taken more of their teachings to heart.Had he more clearly understood the purpose of their being,
he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
They were exceedingly well informed; he was grossly ignorant.They were totally indefatigable; he so often, and so quickly,gave up. Still, for many years there was a strong inter-species alliance between the Eleven-Eleven of the Half-way Realm, their Seraphic Associates,and their flesh-and-blood friend, a common mortal. Much was accomplished, many profited, and, there’s only one regret...They could have achieved so much more...

All Hypnotizing Hypnotizes Hypnotizing
 
gibran2
#8 Posted : 1/10/2011 5:21:11 PM

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Observant wrote:
I know you are one of the few people who experimented with the black caapi variety ,gibran2, i personally havent .
A recent trip report on here contained rantings of an amazonian shaman who said Black Caapi is used by the Brujos on the other side of the river ; ) What would you say is the difference between the black caapi and the white variety for example? Someone claimed it had a higher concentration of harmaline .

I hope to be getting pure synthetic THH from a reliable source at some time in the future .

Snozzleberry , my thought came from the fact that tetrahydro harmaloids have some Serotonin reuptake inhibitor effects
and SSRI + maoi as a combination of drugs is contraindicated .

I don’t have lots of experience with pharma yet, but one time I tried a 1:1 mix of harmine and harmaline as the MAOI, and it was more physically difficult (mainly nausea) than my black caapi experiences. From my limited experience, it doesn’t seem that black caapi is particularly high in harmaline.

One difference might be the relative concentration of alkaloids in various caapi – I recently did an extraction from yellow caapi and got just under 1% alkaloids. My latest batch of black caapi yielded over 3%. If someone who is used to 50g of yellow caapi took 50g of black, he would be in for quite a surprise.

Once you get your THH, please report back on effects. I’m very interested in knowing what it’s like.
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SnozzleBerry
#9 Posted : 1/10/2011 5:36:11 PM

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Observant wrote:
Snozzleberry , my thought came from the fact that tetrahydro harmaloids have some Serotonin reuptake inhibitor effects
and SSRI + maoi as a combination of different drugs is contraindicated ...

Seems a bit of a stretch to me...you're talking about an alkaloid (which happens to be an RIMA, not an MAOI) with relatively low SSRI effects which has been ingested regularly and in high-doses by various societies (some of which have been studied, as in the Brazilian Government's tests) with no apparent neurotxic/detrimental health effects. I really don't think this particular "combination" (of one drug) could/would be said to fall into the category of contraindicated pharmaceuticals you are talking about, but I could be entirely wrong. The research I am aware of would point to this as being a non-issue, although I am by no means an authority on this.
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burnt
#10 Posted : 1/10/2011 5:52:43 PM

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You can extrapolate rough dose of THH consumed in typical ayahuasca brews. Levels around that are certainly safe as ayahuasca doesn't seem to have any negative long term neurological effects.
 
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#11 Posted : 1/10/2011 9:03:33 PM

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slightly off topic but i noticed that at the bottom of the link the OP. posted that the author included the notes of the procedure used to obtain the THH sample... dont know if this has recently been validated though...

Quote:

Notes #

1. Procedure: (Example) 10 grams of harmaline dissolved in 10% aqueous hydrochloric acid had zinc dust added gradually (with occasional shaking). The mixture was heated on a water bath until the yellow coloration disappeared. After filtering off any unreacted zinc, ammonium chloride was added to prevent precipitation of zinc hydroxide. Addition of ammonia caused an immediate precipitation of white material. This was shaken into Ethyl acetate; which recovered THH. (See Siddiqui et al. 1983 for their version of this procedure.) (This should also work for harmine) Siddiqui et al. 1983 reported that the addition of NH4Cl prior to basification with Ammonia increased the yield for this reaction from 50% to around 80% (by preventing the precipitation of Zinc hydroxide).



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mindash
#12 Posted : 3/6/2011 2:38:31 PM

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there are some doctors out there combining maoi's with ssri's. obviously dose is very fragile but it is being done google it
 
syberdelic
#13 Posted : 3/1/2017 7:32:22 PM

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I am reviving this old thread as there are unanswered questions and concerns about the effects of THH in ayahuasca/pharmahuasca brews.

Obviously, it can't be too dangerous since it is present in caapi vine along with harmine and this has been consumed countless times by countless people. With that said, people like myself and significant other will likely never consume traditional ayahuasca again due to some of the negative side effects and the vile taste/texture of the brew. I will however be consuming pharmahuasca as it has proven to me far superior.

I have been toying around with the idea of adding THH to my pharmahuasca. So, the question here is how much is appropriate to simulate THH levels in traditional ayahuasca? Exactly how strong of an SSRI is THH? The comment has been made that a grotesque amount of THH would need to be ingested in order to be dangerous. What exactly would this grotesque amount be? 200mg or 2g???

I personally have a low tolerance to SSRI drugs, and after learning that THH is an SSRI, I now suspect that I suffered from mild serotonin syndrome while consuming ayahuasca in the jungle. I had heat radiating from my spine and profuse sweating. There was also a lot of confusion, but this could have very well been the DMT. It just seemed like a lot more confusion than any other DMT session I've had before. My later pharmahuasca session (harmine+DMT) had some mild warmth and sweating but nothing like ayahuasca and the confusion was minimal.

This brings me to the next question. Is mild serotonin syndrome part of the traditional ayahuasca experience. My significant other seemed to get only mild effects from ayahuasca, but describes part of it as the "hot tub effect" being a warm swaddling effect with some tingling in the extremities. I recognize this as being a very subdued version of what I experienced.

Finally, if THH is acting as a mild SSRI, could other SSRIs be used in place of it (pharmahuasca)in very small amounts? This is where it would be helpful to quantify the SSRI effect of THH. For example 100mg THH substituted by 5mg MDMA? Don't get me wrong. I'm not about to go drop some MDMA into my next pharmahuasca brew, but the thought has occured and needs further investigation.

I realize that the data simply might not exist yet to answer these questions, but if this is the case, then it warrents investigation. Any time science returns the answer, "I don't know.", this is an opportunity to enhance our knowledge base.
 
Jees
#14 Posted : 3/1/2017 8:52:43 PM

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In case you haven't already this info: page 3 of the attached document has relevant numbers.
 
Nereus
#15 Posted : 3/1/2017 9:19:46 PM

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Harmine and Harmaline are both known to produce hypothermia in high doses.

Quote:
Résumé / Abstract
ABDEL-FATTAH, A.-F. M., K. MATSUMOTO, H. A.-K. GAMMAZ AND H. WATANABE. Hypothermic effect of harmala alkaloid in rats : Involvement of serotonergic mechanism. PHARMACOL BIOCHEM BEHAV 52(2) 421-426, 1995.-The effect of total alkaloid extracted from Peganum harmala seeds collected in Egypt on body temperature was studied in rats. Intraperitoneal administration of the Peganum harmala extract produced significant and dose-dependent hypothermia. Similarly, harmine and harmaline, major constituents of the harmala alkaloid, lowered the body temperature.


http://cat.inist.fr/?aMo...cheN&cpsidt=3688188

Also Harmaline is known to be a central nervous system stimulant (what i believe to also be dose dependant)

Quote:
Harmaline, like other harmala alkaloids, does not seem to possess classical psychedelic activity [that activity similar to LSD, psilocybin/psilocin or mescaline]. The problem this individual had was that Syrian rue, Peganum harmala, contains several alkaloids that can either inhibit the enzyme monoamine oxidase that is responsible for the metabolism of serotonin or bind to serotonin receptors in addition to a variety of other effects that include production of tremors.


https://www.researchgate...ien_Rue_Peganum_harmala

Could just upping the Harmaline dose be what you're looking for in terms of SSRI admixture?
 
syberdelic
#16 Posted : 3/2/2017 12:15:21 AM

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This is all great information, but what I'm looking for specifically is quantitatively how strong of an SSRI is THH? If harmine and harmaline are also SSRIs, then how strong are they?
 
Jees
#17 Posted : 3/2/2017 5:44:28 AM

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syberdelic wrote:
This is all great information, but what I'm looking for specifically is quantitatively how strong of an SSRI is THH? If harmine and harmaline are also SSRIs, then how strong are they?

What would you do with that information if obtained?
We have ways to work practically with it, should that not be enough?
Just curious Pleased
 
Aum_Shanti
#18 Posted : 3/2/2017 8:57:23 AM
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I think the final question is, what are the save levels of THH, combined with e.g. Harmine.

Knowing the effectiveness of THH as an SSRI would help some people guessing a proper dosage window. Especially for people being sensitive to SSRIs, like it seems to be the case for syberdelic, this could be a helpful information.
But I would think proper numbers are hard to come by.

But if more THH separation is done, we could probably come up with a dosage mix, which most users would find "ideal" for them.
That needn't have to be the same ratios as in Yahe. As they can hardly influence these ratios.
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Jees
#19 Posted : 3/2/2017 10:37:07 AM

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Though I am curious how weak an ssri the THH actually is, but I would not calculate or guess a dose on it. I would rather start low and build up and come to individual conclusions as being the most proven method to deal with the cargo of personal differences.
 
syberdelic
#20 Posted : 3/2/2017 5:58:16 PM

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What I'm eluding to is that most likely these numbers that I seek do not yet exist. I don't know the right person to nudge to get that experiment going, but it's likely that someone on this board does.

Until this happens, I will try to get my hands on THH and use myself as a guinea pig. As stated, I will start with a low dose and go from there. I have a suspicion that the first time I feel the effects in combination with harmine, I will abandon ship but we'll see.

Also, there was some mention of the effects of harmaline. Please tell me if I'm wrong, but I was understanding that there was only a negligible amount of harmaline in caapi vine.

And there is also the idea of substitution. If we knew the relative strengths of SSRIs, another easier to source SSRI could be substituted for THH, that is if THH has any realisticly noticable SSRI effects. For instance Moclomebide + Prozac + DMT. And yes, I fully realize the dangers involved which is why I want better numbers. I would suspect the Prozac dosage for the above scenario would be miniscule at around 1 or 2mg.
 
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