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Pictorial Guide to Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction Options
 
gibran2
#1 Posted : 11/12/2010 5:55:16 PM

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I started another thread where I observed how easy caapi alkaloid extraction is, so I thought I’d describe the process in a bit more detail here:

Preparation of the Brew

In the example shown, I started with 64g of shredded black caapi vine. 1g of fumaric acid was added to the vine. Other acidifying agents may be used, such as about 25ml of vinegar. (Some brews are made without addition of any acid.)

Add about 500ml water to the vine (enough to cover most of it), and gently boil for 30 minutes, covered. Pour off the resultant liquid through a strainer into a larger pot. Repeat this step three more times.

Boil the resultant brew (about one liter) and reduce to a volume of about 400ml. Cool to room temperature (if you want, add ice to speed cooling).



Basification of the Brew

Dissolve 5g of NaOH in 50ml of water. Add this solution to the brew, and periodically stir for about 5 minutes. During this time, the alkaloids begin to aggregate and precipitate. Allow the alkaloids to settle and the solution to clarify.



Remove Soluble Impurities

Siphon off the clear dark-brown liquid and discard.

Add about 200ml water, stir, and allow precipitate to settle again. After 20-30 minutes, the precipitate will have settled, but the solution may still be somewhat cloudy. Rather than wait 12+ hours for everything to settle, siphon off the liquid and save it. Repeat this step two more times.



Acidify, Remove Insoluble Impurities

Add about 50ml vinegar to the precipitate. This will cause the freebase alkaloids to form water-soluble salts, leaving behind insoluble impurities. Dilute with about 150ml water.

Allow solution to settle. When the resultant yellow liquid is nearly crystal clear, remove and save it. Discard the brown sediment. This sediment is mostly bits of plant material.



Freebase the Alkaloid Salts

Add about 5g NaOH to 50ml water. While stirring the yellow alkaloid solution, slowly add NaOH solution. The freebase alkaloids will rapidly come out of solution. Add only enough NaOH to get the alkaloids to freebase – you’ll probably only need 20ml or so of the solution, depending on how much acid you used in the previous step.



Remove Excess NaOH, Salts, Etc.

After most of the precipitate has settled, siphon off the cloudy liquid. Reserve this liquid for an overnight settling.

Add about 200ml water to the precipitate, stir, and allow to settle again. Remove and reserve liquid. Repeat this step one more time.

Before removing the liquid the third time, check its pH. It should be somewhere between 7 and 8. If the solution is still very alkaline, you haven’t removed enough NaOH and must do additional rinses. Repeat until pH is between 7 and 8.

A pH meter or pH test papers are highly recommended, but if you don’t have either, then do at least 4 rinses.



Drying the Freebased Alkaloids

After removing as much water as possible from the freebased alkaloids, transfer the alkaloids to a baking dish or another suitable container with lots of surface area. Allow to dry – under a fan is best. When the alkaloids are dry, they will be noticeably lighter in color. Scrape up the dry alkaloids and store in a cool dark place.



Final Yield

Allow the “rinse” solutions that were collected and put aside to settle for 12 or more hours (in a refrigerator is good). You will be surprised by how much precipitate collects from what were only slightly cloudy solutions.

Siphon off the liquid and discard. Acidify the precipitate, allow to settle, etc. as described above.

From 64g of black caapi vine, the initial extraction yielded 1.068g alkaloids. The second extraction of the reserved liquids yielded another 0.258g. The total yield was 1.326g, or 2.07%
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sigmundfreuid
#2 Posted : 11/12/2010 6:15:18 PM
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Thanks for this very nice pictorial Gibran2.Swim was wondering ,what was your final yield for the 64g of Caapi ?
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olympus mon
#3 Posted : 11/12/2010 6:15:49 PM

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gibran, thank you so much for doing this tutorial. this is exactly what ive been looking for. im a very visual person and i now have the confidence to do my own caapi extraction.

maybe i missed it but did you state how much your 65g vine yielded in freebase alkaloids?

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corpus callosum
#4 Posted : 11/12/2010 6:40:07 PM

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Excellent work Gibran2-methinks this should be wiki-edVery happy !!
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Malaclypse
#5 Posted : 11/12/2010 6:40:12 PM

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Good stuff there man! Pics do really help.

Next time SWIM gets some caapi he will give this a go with some Calcium Hydroxide and/or Sodium Carbonate as a base and see if that works as well. As far as I understand there shouldn't be any problem with this with Sodium Carbonate as I found phlux has a tech to separate harmine from a harmaline/harmine solution. Not sure if there is any problem with Hydroxides, but I would like to test this out to see and give people more options.

Did you happen to check pH on the first step of NaOH? I'm rusty on my chem still, but brushing up with the info here. From the info Endlessness compiled https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=13172 Harmine has a pkA of 7.7 and Harmaline 9.8. So if the pH is something over 11 or so you grabbed everything (unless THH is way higher, I couldn't find pkA for that).

I think according to https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&m=89205 that your end result of this will be mainly harmine with little harmaline, which could actually be desirable for some as I am reading that harmaline is the more "stoney" feeling alkaloid some may want to remove. Can some chem guys confirm that?
 
gibran2
#6 Posted : 11/12/2010 6:43:42 PM

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sigmundfreuid wrote:
Thanks for this very nice pictorial Gibran2.Swim was wondering ,what was your final yield for the 64g of Caapi ?

The yield from the part of the extraction shown was 1.07g, or about 1.67%, but I’m still in the process of extracting from the “rinses” that I collected and let sit over night. It looks like there was a good amount that settled out. I’ll report the final yield as soon as I know it.
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The Traveler
#7 Posted : 11/12/2010 6:44:44 PM

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Wonderful gibran2!

This will be put on the Wiki.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
The Traveler
#8 Posted : 11/12/2010 6:47:14 PM

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Any specific name you would like to give this guide?

Like "gibran2 Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction guide"?


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
gibran2
#9 Posted : 11/12/2010 6:49:20 PM

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Malaclypse wrote:
...Did you happen to check pH on the first step of NaOH? I'm rusty on my chem still, but brushing up with the info here. From the info Endlessness compiled https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=13172 Harmine has a pkA of 7.7 and Harmaline 9.8. So if the pH is something over 11 or so you grabbed everything (unless THH is way higher, I couldn't find pkA for that).

I think according to https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&m=89205 that your end result of this will be mainly harmine with little harmaline, which could actually be desirable for some as I am reading that harmaline is the more "stoney" feeling alkaloid some may want to remove. Can some chem guys confirm that?

The pH was somewhere over 12. I used test strips, so I can’t say precisely how high it was, but clearly higher than 12.

Regarding what alkaloids were pulled – caapi vine contains mostly harmine and THH, with a smaller amount of harmaline.
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gibran2
#10 Posted : 11/12/2010 6:50:08 PM

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The Traveler wrote:
Any specific name you would like to give this guide?

Like "gibran2 Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction guide"?


Kind regards,

The Traveler

How about "Easy Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction Guide"?
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The Traveler
#11 Posted : 11/12/2010 7:01:49 PM

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gibran2
#12 Posted : 11/12/2010 7:01:50 PM

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Fiashly wrote:
That is pure sweetness right there gibran2! I had read your other post about it and thought it seemed not too hard but this post clinched it, this is simple. I am wondering what the bio-assay reveals. Is this as good as the brew you think?

I also wonder at the first basification step. How do you know how much lye/water to add? I see where you are saying to add it all but I usually brew a couple hundred grams of vine at a time so obviously I would need more. I wonder what PH would be sufficient to consider all of the relevant molecules basified. I see where the next steps would help remove excess but what about adding too little and not getting the full bang for the buck?


Also on the remove soluble impurities step I see where you say to set the liquid aside but you never say what you do with that liquid. Can I assume you let it sit a while and decant and then put whatever settled back in with the main batch? Or maybe you filtered it somehow instead?


I’ve tried the alkaloids from a previous extraction and they are quite pleasant and effective – I consumed 225mg caapi alkaloids followed by about 50mg DMT and had my first pharmahuasca experience a week ago. It was nice.

I allowed all of the collected rinses to settle over night and got quite a bit of additional precipitate. I’m in the process of extracting it (following the same process), and will report back on additional yield.
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sigmundfreuid
#13 Posted : 11/12/2010 7:07:41 PM
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Gibran2 ,your starting material was shredded Caapi or did you powder it ? And if powder was used then you would probably need to
let your 400ml of reduced caapi liquid settle for a few hours right to let the sediment settle right ?
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gibran2
#14 Posted : 11/12/2010 7:11:36 PM

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Fiashly wrote:
...One more thing I am wondering, could this same process be adapted to P harmala seeds? I know I hear that filtering seeds is problematic but what if you didn't grind them? They are so cheap anyway perhaps you could run this same process on whole seeds and it would still be worth the effort if the yeilds were sufficient. Of course I realize the alk profile is different than the vine and would be a different animal but still.

No – this technique is not suitable for extraction from P. harmala seeds – they contain some rather toxic alkaloids that would be pulled along with the desired ones. (The Manske process selectively leaves the undesirable alkaloids behind).
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gibran2
#15 Posted : 11/12/2010 7:14:36 PM

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sigmundfreuid wrote:
Gibran2 ,your starting material was shredded Caapi or did you powder it ? And if powder was used then you would probably need to
let your 400ml of reduced caapi liquid settle for a few hours right to let the sediment settle right ?

It was shredded (see the very first photo). If powdered, you would need to let the liquid settle in the initial brewing steps (but for 5-10 minutes, not for hours), and return any sediment back to the brew (in case it contains any actives).
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DiMiTriX
#16 Posted : 11/12/2010 8:04:30 PM

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good job gibran2!!Very happy
let's wait for jimjamshop caapi restock Cool
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Madcap
#17 Posted : 11/12/2010 8:16:01 PM

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awesome! I've used a similar method once before, although I will likely follow your tek next time as it looks pretty straight forward.

Thanks for taking the time to picture and write up. I know it adds extra work, it is appreciated.

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gibran2
#18 Posted : 11/12/2010 9:22:22 PM

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I added final yield notes to the above TEK:

Final Yield

Allow the “rinse” solutions that were collected and put aside to settle for 12 or more hours (in a refrigerator is good). You will be surprised by how much precipitate collects from what were only slightly cloudy solutions.

Siphon off the liquid and discard. Acidify the precipitate, allow to settle, etc. as described above.

From 64g of black caapi vine, the initial extraction yielded 1.068g alkaloids. The second extraction of the reserved liquids yielded another 0.258g. The total yield was 1.326g, or 2.07%

Not bad. Smile
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Crystalito
#19 Posted : 11/12/2010 11:30:59 PM
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Excellent! Very nice pictorial and a rather easy method. Also i think the yield was very satisfactory..More than i would have thought cappi would contain!

Quote:
No – this technique is not suitable for extraction from P. harmala seeds – they contain some rather toxic alkaloids that would be pulled along with the desired ones. (The Manske process selectively leaves the undesirable alkaloids behind).


Hmmm, with a slight modification somewhere in between it could work for Peganum harmala i guess. It would require an acidification and a NaCl precipitation step, and then back to basifications.

The point i bring this up though is not this. Its more of a question i have : Are we sure that the undiserable alkaloids in syrian rue precipitate as freebases from aqueous solutions? Have any tests been done? . Not all alkaloids precipitate when freebase in aqueous solutions or else many extractions would be way easier... If i am missing somethiong from the picture, please do inform!
 
jbark
#20 Posted : 11/12/2010 11:38:36 PM

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Very nice Gibran2. I had a quick look at the tek, and I can't wait to try it. Very well organized (as expected!!) Let us know how the bio-assay goes.

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