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~Phalaris = The Way Of The Future~ Options
 
arimane
#121 Posted : 12/5/2011 12:39:08 PM

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Sorry if I haven't read everything about Phalaris, but I'm more or less following the development, it's really interesting.

I was thinking, and maybe is a bad idea but who knows, maybe something can come out from it, why not go into a more genetic approach?

I mean, looks like in this forum we are starting to have guys who can do and read at least a TLC (me included), and we can get to understand when a plant is rich in DMT and poor in hordenine/gramine/toxic stuff we all know.

So, why not trying to isolate a strain that contains little to zero of unwanted stuff? The Phalaris brachystachys that Samorini studied seemed good for a star, I can send him an e-mail, ask where has he found it, than someone can, at least, take the seeds, send them to someone who wants to cultivate, and the product can be send to a third one who wants to analize... and so on, everybody doing different parts, at their own pleasure, and with a good isolation, works with hybrids (wich I would personally like to do), ecc. we can try to have a nice phalaris to plant, easy to grow and to extract.

Just an idea that came across me today = )

(beside that, since the Phalaris is something that seem so important for the future of DMT, a separate section in the forum would maybe help to collect all infos and different approaches to it)
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endlessness
#122 Posted : 12/5/2011 1:59:57 PM

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AQ1, according to all research done so far, is the highest and cleanest DMT yielding phalaris. The stuff from dreamer I sent to GC MS seems to confirm this, as linked above. The supplier for it is mentioned there too.

Regarding separation area, Ive added some info here:

https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Phalaris_spp.

we still gotta create the pages for individual phalaris. Most of info regarding DMT and 5 meo phalaris findings are mentioned in the DMT and 5-MeO-DMT wikis, in the "plants containing" part
 
Ginkgo
#123 Posted : 12/5/2011 5:48:51 PM

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Aren't you forgetting Phalaris brachystachys? Even if there's a little gramine, it is still by far the highest yielding Phalaris.
 
Dozuki
#124 Posted : 12/5/2011 11:43:57 PM

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Here are a couple of Papers that may be of interest:

"Further Characterization and Quantitative Determination of 5-Methoxy-N-Methyltryptamine in Phalaris arundinacea"

"Methoxylated Gramine Derivatives from Phalaris aquatica"
 
endlessness
#125 Posted : 12/6/2011 12:07:27 AM

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Thanks! some TLC info there.. Too bad no GC-MS info, will have to look further for that...
 
Dozuki
#126 Posted : 12/6/2011 12:12:44 AM

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Do you have the Mass Specs for the B-carbs?
 
endlessness
#127 Posted : 12/6/2011 12:25:05 AM

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Not really, it was something I was gonna start searching tomorrow when I have some time.. You have anything at hand? I know the gander et al 1976 paper has mass spec for one of them, but dont know for others
 
Dozuki
#128 Posted : 12/6/2011 12:36:07 AM

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I'll see what I can find, I have a few references with the data I believe... I'll post here when I find them
 
endlessness
#129 Posted : 12/6/2011 12:44:57 AM

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Thanks!


Gingko, do you have any reference for the brachystachys yield claim? All I can find is whats in the Nexus wiki and there is no quantitation.
 
Dozuki
#130 Posted : 12/6/2011 1:39:49 AM

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Mass Specs of Beta-Carbs:

2-Me-6MeO-THBC: Re-crystallization From Heptane:Ethyl Acetate (10:1), and possibly benzene

216(30.6), 173(100), 158(46.5), - Shannon et al 1971
M+ 216 - Peaks at: 216, 173, 158 - Gander et al 1976
M+ 216 - 216(15), 173(100), 158(52), 130(5) - Anderton et al 1999

2,9-Dimethyl-6-MeO-THBC:

M+ 230 - Peaks at: 230, 216, 215, 200, 200, 187(base peak), 186, 172, 171, 159, 158, 143, 130, 42, 15 - Audette et al 1969
These were listed as 'important peaks'

2-Me-THBC: Re-crystallization from Heptane:Ethyl Acetate (10:1) or Benzene

M+ 186 - Gander et at 1976
M+ 186 - 186(34), 143(100), 129(1.5), 115(8 ) - Anderton et al 1999


I've not seen any Qantitative data on Phalaris b. other than Festi and Samorini.
 
endlessness
#131 Posted : 12/7/2011 1:11:02 PM

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As posted in the advanced chem mass spectra thread, identification of phalaris is basically done.

Most substances or at least classes of substances have been identified, check earlir post in this thread. There is only one important peak at around min 5.7 in all of the 3 that seems very likely caffeine but I dont think caffeine is in phalaris, so Im wondering if possible contamination? I can't see how this would have been contaminated, but maybe for some weird reason we got caffeine in our samples? Any other guesses, maybe its just a substance with similar molecular structure?

Here's the ratio of the significant active alkaloids (they can be compared between th different phalaris because it was same dissolution amounts):

AQ1:
DMT: HORDENINE: Possib 2MTHBC: MYSTERY CAFFEINE
14.6: 2.6: 1.1: 3.1

Big Medicine:
DMT: HORDENINE: GRAMINE: MYSTERY CAFFEINE
37.5: 13.3: 1: 44.7

Yugo red
DMT: HORDENINE: GRAMINE: MISTERY CAFFEINE
2.1: 90.3: 65.2: 9

Conditions of growth and suppliers for plants are also written above.

Now instead of checking whole plants, ideally we should check extracts, its much more useful knowledge for us since a lot of what is found in crude plant methanol soak will not make it through in an extraction.
 
jamie
#132 Posted : 12/7/2011 6:49:03 PM

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so there was no 5meoDMT in either of the arundinacea's?
 
endlessness
#133 Posted : 12/7/2011 7:13:04 PM

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nope, no 5-MeO-DMT at least in those ones. Maybe Turkey Red would be the best bet.
 
Dozuki
#134 Posted : 12/7/2011 8:53:17 PM

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Yup, that should be a good candidate, I know where some wild strains are too.

Also makes me wander where 'Yugo Red' came from (I would suspect seed) as it seems like a combining of the names 'Yugoslavian Fresh Cut' and 'Turkey Red' both of which are strains from Appleseed.
 
jamie
#135 Posted : 12/7/2011 9:02:38 PM

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okay so I collected a big bag of wild arundinacea about 2 weeks ago. I chopped it up a little bit and boiled it in a pot of water and vinegar..I then poured off the water and vinegar and evaporated it in a food dehydrator until it was a greenish black sticky resin..I then added calcium hydroxide and water and mixed it into a paste and let it sit for a while to let the reaction happen..I then did 2 limo pulls for 24 hours each pull and salted each pull 3x with a mixture of vinegar and hot water..I am doing the 3rd limo pull right now.

The result of the first 2 pulls I salted is a cloudy yellowish grey-white..alot like when I salt mimosa but a bit less orange in color I guess..anyway it's a good sign, I must have pulled something and I dont think it is just a bunch of oils and fats..it does not smell at all like phalaris anymore which smells disgusting after it has been boiled, as does the resin..

I will take a picture of the solution after I salt the 3rd pull and before I evaporate it..then I will probabily convert that to fumerates and back to freebase to clean it up a bit more.

Do we have any information at all as to how soluble gramine and hordenine are in limonene? I dont have any naptha, or money for naptha this week, and would prefer to avoid naptha anyway due to a number of reasons..one of them being that naptha wont pull oxides so it's use as a solvent poses other problems.
 
Dozuki
#136 Posted : 12/7/2011 9:19:21 PM

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I'm not sure about the solubility data. However, with grass being extracted this late in the season, it appears you will end up with larger amounts of the Beta-carbs. The literature shows that the tryptamines peak in mid summer then steadily fall (the testing ends in October). The Beta-carbs, however just keep slowly increasing.
 
jamie
#137 Posted : 12/7/2011 9:28:45 PM

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^yeah I just dont buy it from experience though, becasue I have extracted grass late in the season(later than this even) and grass very early and grass in the summer..and I smoked a sample of each one every time I did it. The stuff extracted very late in the season was the most potent, definatily strong tryptamine effects from the tiny ammount I smoked..but not like mimosa..more like reports I have read of 5meoDMT experiences. I guess it is possible there are beta carbolines that can produce such an experience.

 
Dozuki
#138 Posted : 12/7/2011 10:06:01 PM

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The tryptamines are still there, they just show up in lower amounts toward the end of the season according to the literature. The beta-carbs could be active themselves, they could also possibly be potentiating the tryptamines, and certain extraction techniques could eliminate them leaving only the tryptamines.

EDIT: Yup, the tryptamines are still there, and in good numbers... Preliminary results *suggest* that Naptha leaves the traces behind and extracts 5-MeO. See this thread...


Lower amounts meaning less than their peak period, but more so than the beta-carbs.
 
Dozuki
#139 Posted : 12/8/2011 2:42:13 AM

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It's also good to hear bioassay reports on this, especially good ones Smile What where the early and midsummer extractions like??
 
endlessness
#140 Posted : 12/14/2011 2:03:21 PM

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By the way I sent one of the phalaris to analyze again to see if the caffeine was some contamination or if its really some misterious presence in phalaris. I also tried to do some quick limonene extraction on a small bit of it, and sent to gc-ms, but I think maybe it was too small amount, dont know how well it will be detected, lets see. Ill keep you guys posted, probably in a week Ill have the results.
 
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