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VillainInc
#1 Posted : 6/10/2008 9:25:07 PM
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I was just reading about citric acid and acetic acid a little, and I was just wondering. Would it be safe to assume citric acid would be a better idea for an a/b extraction due to its higher boiling point (177C compared to 118.1C according to Wikipedia)? I'm a little new to this, but I assume if the acid doesn't boil off, the pH should remain more constant.

Oh yeah, and vinegar smells bad.

Like I said, I'm new to this, so go easy on my if I'm wrong. Smile
 

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benzyme
#2 Posted : 6/10/2008 9:42:40 PM

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b.p. doesn't matter, because you really don't want to subject it to that much heat.
personally, I favor acetic acid, as it's also used to extract psilocin. DMT is fully soluble and stable in acetic acid. citric is fine as well, but the product would probably be a bit messier
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Spock's Brain
#3 Posted : 6/11/2008 11:16:27 PM

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benzyme - would ascorbic acid - vitamin C - be suitable and favorable for extraction methods? One could grind up some vitamin C with a mortar and pestle and create an acid solution?
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rellik
#4 Posted : 6/12/2008 1:37:14 AM

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phosphoric has also been used quite effectively in ayahuasca brews
all of my posts are fictional. please interpret them as such.
 
benzyme
#5 Posted : 6/12/2008 3:37:26 AM

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Spock's Brain wrote:
benzyme - would ascorbic acid - vitamin C - be suitable and favorable for extraction methods? One could grind up some vitamin C with a mortar and pestle and create an acid solution?


yes, as it is water soluble. it greatly helps to heat the water too (not necessarily boil though), solubility increases exponentially with temperature
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benzyme
#6 Posted : 6/12/2008 3:41:36 AM

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all of these are great ideas.
personally, I feel that hydrochloric is a bit excessive, as it has a pH between 0 and 1; not to say it's unsuitable for extraction, of course it works well too. you'll just have to make a dilute solution.
any acid with pH of 2 - 3 would work sufficiently, right out the bottle. and every one mentioned in this thread fits the bill.
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69ron
#7 Posted : 6/12/2008 8:52:02 AM

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Yeah, all of these work. They each have their advantages and disadvantages.

Acetic acid:
Pros: can be all evaporated away; food grade is easy to get.
Cons: smells up the whole house; produces unstable alkaloid salts; weak acid.

Citric acid:
Pros: has almost no odor; won’t boil away; produces stable alkaloid salts; food grade is easy to get.
Cons: can’t be evaporated away; weak acid.

Hydrochloric acid:
Pros: can be all evaporated away; produces stable alkaloid salts; strong acid.
Cons: smells bad; can burn you; food grade is hard to get.

Ascorbic acid:
Pros: has almost no odor; won’t boil away; food grade is easy to get; acts as a powerful antioxidant (reducing agent).
Cons: can’t be evaporated away; produces unstable alkaloid salts; weak acid; vitamin C overdoses are possible.

Phosphoric acid
Pros: has almost no odor; won’t boil away; food grade is somewhat easy to get;
Cons: can’t be evaporated away;



I would avoid using ascorbic acid because it’s a vitamin. Vitamin C is good in small amounts, but too much is not good for you. If you eat too much ascorbic acid, you can get symptoms of Vitamin C overdose (diarrhea, gas, stomach upset, headache, lip swelling, difficulty in breathing, etc.).

SWIM prefers citric acid because it’s fairly stable and has pretty much no odor. SWIM likes to deal with powders more than liquids. Citric acid is also very safe. It’s found in fruit, and often used in cooking as “sour salt”. Just a little bit of citric acid is needed to bring a solution down to pH 3.

SWIM doesn’t like hydrochloric acid. It’s too dangerous and smells bad. Plus it’s a liquid and SWIM prefers powders.

SWIM uses sodium carbonate as his preferred base. When citric acid and sodium carbonate are reacted together, they form sodium citrate. Sodium citrate is a common food flavoring additive found in many drinks.
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benzyme
#8 Posted : 6/12/2008 2:47:47 PM

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69ron wrote:


Acetic acid:

Cons: smells up the whole house; produces unstable alkaloid salts; weak acid.


hmm...you sure about that? my (re)sources tell me that disubbed tryptamines are stable in acetic, while in solution.
boiling/evaporation of acids isn't a concern, because the point is to convert the salts in solution into the free base form, with a basic solution. the acid can be a weak one (pH 2 - 3), as long as the solution is heated for a few hours, or else the solid phase will need to sit in the solution for quite a while.
according to the consensus here, the base should be strong enough to take the pH significantly higher than the pKa of DMT (~ 8.6), to around 12 or 13.
what really needs to be taken into account is the nonpolar solvent used (and its selectivity). this is what needs to evaporate
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burnt
#9 Posted : 6/12/2008 5:19:08 PM

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dmt is freely soluble in acidic water solutions pH 2-4 or so. the acid doesn't make too much of a difference.

i like the smell of acetic acid, clears the sinuses Very happy
 
benzyme
#10 Posted : 6/12/2008 7:27:07 PM

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heh heh, formic does too. man does that stuff sting the nose
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69ron
#11 Posted : 6/12/2008 10:25:14 PM

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benzyme wrote:
69ron wrote:


Acetic acid:

Cons: smells up the whole house; produces unstable alkaloid salts; weak acid.


hmm...you sure about that? my (re)sources tell me that disubbed tryptamines are stable in acetic, while in solution.


I’m absolutely sure about that and I can give references if you like. But you misunderstood what I was saying. I was talking about acids in general, not as they pertain to any particular extractions.

While in an acetic acid solution alkaloids are quite stable as acetates. But dry alkaloid acetates are not very stable salts. After a while they tend to come apart leaving behind an exposed freebase alkaloid. But this is of no concern if SWIY is extracting DMT using a typical extraction tech where the DMT acetate is never dried.

benzyme wrote:

boiling/evaporation of acids isn't a concern, because the point is to convert the salts in solution into the free base form, with a basic solution. the acid can be a weak one (pH 2 - 3), as long as the solution is heated for a few hours, or else the solid phase will need to sit in the solution for quite a while.


Yeah. But it all depends on what you’re extracting and how. If SWIY wanted to extract a DMT salt, then this could matter. But the only good DMT salt SWIM knows of is DMT fumarate. This is a very stable DMT salt, and its one of the few that readily crystallizes. SWIM has plenty of experience with that salt. It’s great for use in ayahuasca and it has a fabulous shelf life.

benzyme wrote:

according to the consensus here, the base should be strong enough to take the pH significantly higher than the pKa of DMT (~ 8.6), to around 12 or 13.
what really needs to be taken into account is the nonpolar solvent used (and its selectivity). this is what needs to evaporate


SWIM disagrees completely with that. SWIM uses pH 9.5 and can extract 97% of all the DMT from chacruna at that pH. At those high pH levels soaps start forming making the extraction really difficult and inefficient. It’s not recommended by SWIM.

I don’t know who started using sodium hydroxide to “salt out” emulsions, but it’s now very popular. It’s a bad idea, it’s dangerous, expensive, but it does work. A pH of 12 isn’t needed to extract DMT. At pH 11.2 99% of all the DMT is in freebase form. Freebase DMT is almost just as soluble in water at pH 11.2 as it is at pH 14. The only thing adding more sodium hydroxide is doing is causing a “salting out” effect which can be done by adding good old sodium chloride (table salt). Those guys that are using sodium hydroxide to “salt out” Mimosa emulsions are wasting their money.

It’s SWIMs experience that with Mimosa if he adds 10% sodium chloride before the defat step, and then freebases at pH 9.5 with sodium carbonate, he will achieve better results than he can at pH 12 or 13 using dangerous sodium hydroxide. A pH of 12 is overkill. The only reason people use that pH is to nock down emulsions that are specific to Mimosa. This is caused by a “salting out” effect which is the same as adding sodium chloride (table salt), only it’s more expensive and more dangerous because they use sodium hydroxide instead of cheap safe table salt. “Salting out” actually works better if sodium chloride (table salt) is used rather than sodium hydroxide.
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benzyme
#12 Posted : 6/12/2008 10:42:00 PM

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swib finds that the soaps actually appear around pH 8, and the salting out occurs at the high pH range. swib finds this easier to work with in the sep funnel.
swib uses acs grade naoh; yeah, it's expensive and dangerous (if one doesn't know what one is doing), but he also uses it for other extractions.
there are many teks out there, and no wrong ones thus far. it's a matter of preference and accessibility.
for all practical purposes, the extraction methods mentioned on the site are relevant to the free bases for vaporization, rather than salts, which are undoubtedly useful for hoasca concoctions. in that case, swib would use hcl, which is also immensely stable.
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69ron
#13 Posted : 6/13/2008 1:40:44 AM

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DMT HCl is stable, but it's very hygroscopic and next to impossible to crystallize without a vacuum desiccator. If crystallized, it needs to be kept in an air tight container with desiccants or it starts absorbing water from the air forming a wet sticky goo within minutes.

As I understand it, DMT citrate, DMT acetate, DMT phosphate, and DMT tartrate, also have the same problem. They are all very hygroscopic and become a wet sticky goo after only a few minutes in air.

Those salts are fine if the DMT is stored as liquid. But if a person needs a dry powder DMT salt, than another acid needs to be used.

That's why in the US, DMT fumarate is approved for medical research. It forms a dry salt that is extremely easy to crystallize, that is completely non-hygroscopic, is less waxy than freebase DMT, easier to powder, completely free flowing, and extremely stable. I believe DMT picrate is similar.

According to SWIM, DMT fumarate is stronger in ayahuasca than freebase DMT. SWIM is not sure why. Probably it gets absorbed faster. SWIM notices it comes on much quicker. DMT phosphate is also said to be stronger than freebase DMT in ayahuasca.
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benzyme
#14 Posted : 6/13/2008 1:53:59 AM

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so swiy prefers ingesting the salts orally? interesting. how long is the experience?
swib had hoasca once..took too much of the force, not enough of the light. he said the ordeal lasted about 3 hours, and it took about 50 mins for onset
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69ron
#15 Posted : 6/13/2008 3:45:35 AM

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SWIM likes DMT orally but also likes it vaporized. When vaporized, it comes on too quickly and is gone too soon. So, SWIM prefers the effects of vaporized 5-HO-DMT to that of DMT. It lasts longer, and the come up is much slower, allowing SWIM to get more form the experience. SWIM also gets more visuals from 5-HO-DMT and not as much nausea. It’s kind of weird. SWIM gets no nausea from oral DMT, but gets nausea from vaporized DMT. SWIM gets no nausea from 5-MeO-DMT if vaporized, but does if taken orally. 5-HO-DMT is psychically a little more rough feeling than DMT or 5-MeO-DMT. But SWIM still prefers it over the other two when it comes to vaporizable psychedelics. SWIM really loves the auditory hallucinations that he only gets from 5-HO-DMT.

When taking DMT fumarate orally, SWIM first takes 200 mg of harmine freebase in a capsule. Then 15 minutes later takes 30 mg of DMT fumarate dissolved in a glass of water. SWIM feels the DMT in about 5 minutes if done this way. SWIM reaches the peak in about 45-90 minutes. It lasts about 2-4 hours. It's a different experience than vaporizing it. The harmine is psychedelic on its own. It adds a lot to the experience. It’s a very dreamy experience. SWIM never gets any nausea from this combination.

SWIM really likes the strange mix of alkaloids in Diplopterys cabrerana. That makes some really interesting and unique ayahuasca. It really simulates the mind. Diplopterys cabrerana has DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and some other unusual compounds that make the effects very unique. If SWIM uses mixed alkaloids from Diplopterys cabrerana, he doesn’t go higher than 20 mg. It’s very potent.
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damiana
#16 Posted : 8/19/2009 4:35:12 AM

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Quote:
I would avoid using ascorbic acid because it’s a vitamin. Vitamin C is good in small amounts, but too much is not good for you. If you eat too much ascorbic acid, you can get symptoms of Vitamin C overdose (diarrhea, gas, stomach upset, headache, lip swelling, difficulty in breathing, etc.).


69ron, where did you find this information, i've been told that vitamin c is extremely good for destroying free radicals and too much is not possible. I've been taking almost 2000mg daily, thanks. i'll have to find out where i got that information, it seemed reliable, scientific studies published in a peer reviewed article, hmm.
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Phlux-
#17 Posted : 8/19/2009 7:09:57 AM

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swims heard any amount over about 400mg per day for an average sized male of vitamin c per day can be counter productive.
2g per day seems a bit much.
i think to be called a ascorbic acid lacks something and therefore is not vitamin c.
i doubt anyone would eat enough of a ascorbate salt for it to be an issue.
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69ron
#18 Posted : 8/19/2009 10:02:35 AM

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Too much ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) gives me headaches and nosebleeds and makes my skin feel tight. It's not fun at all for me. I don't think it's good for you in excess.

There are many new studies that say moderation is the key and too much is unhealthy. It's good it the proper amount only.
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pvitity
#19 Posted : 4/2/2012 10:00:25 PM
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Sorry to bring out this topic but I can't find acetic acid (5-10%) anywhere. Can I use citric acid alongside with Q21Q21 tek? If so, with 100GR of MHRB how many grams should I add of citric acid? In the powder form or should I make a solution? Will it be efective as the distilled white vinegar is?
 
Hyperdimensional Cuttlefish
#20 Posted : 4/3/2012 12:16:44 AM

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Regular white vinegar usually 5% acetic acid in the store. If you live near a grocery store you should be fine.
All these posts are on behalf of Stimpy, my yellow bullhead. He is an adventurous fish, and I feel his exploits are worth sharing...so much so, I occasionally forget that HE is the one who does these things. Sometimes I get caught in the moment and write of his experiences in the first person; this is a mistake, for I am an upstanding citizen who never does wrong. Stimpy is the degenerate.
 
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