Very true words, my friend but I would suspend judgement until we see the interrelatedness of the two seemingly diverse paths. "Superior"? IMO, neither is superior, as they are best joined in harmony and each has it place in the journey of the Wounded Healer. they appear, on the surface, as different pathways to the mountain top but neither could be labeled as superior or inferior. Like Alan Watts used to say and I loosely paraphrase him, "Psychedelics are powerful medicines which give us tremendous insights but should not be a daily diet". Meditation, in all of it's various guises, is a healthy daily diet. Food for the soul, yet, hardly as ego-shattering as LSD-25, Sacred Cacti, Magic Mushrooms or Ayahuasca/ DMT. I respect them each, in their own way, as well as all of the kind folks on this forum.

In all honesty, without gradually becoming well-practiced in the art of meditation, I suspect I would have spent much less time absorbed into the Clear Light of the Void (under the influence of psychedelics), and more time in confession, chaos and utter terror. Death is inevitable and I believe we must come to terms with any degree of this natural reality. I/you/we live in the here & now and cannot sanely care for the morrow (as it does not really exist, despite the publicity). From gradual degrees of concentration, an individual becomes able to center on one thought or point of concentration and attuned to one single frequency of awareness.

All good stuff, for sure. Otherwise, I guess I could have spent lifetimes bouncing across the universe of endless possibilities and seemingly, infinite mental distractions. Meditation does give one a proven path to heighten ones focus on the third eye and the crown of one's consciousness, within the auric body (i.e. higher centers of consciousness). That being said, nothing can be as powerful or ego eliminating as the Medicine nature has gifted us with. Funny, thousands upon thousands of years ago... our forefathers/mothers sensed a Divine link from the earth's sacred plants and through generations of ritual and meditation... they merged with the Absolute, even as we still do today. By today, I mean right... NOW.

Peace, love and light

maybe the psychedelic experience is supposed to be intense, and meditation something else. They can both have their own place.

Bingo!!! I love your use of the phrase, "potentate each other". Also, your suggestion about self-control is pretty much on-the-mark. Perhaps it might be more appropriate to use the term MIND-CONTROL, as this leads to cessation of thought impulses and cultivates an attunement to subtler and far subtler frequencies of awareness. Calming the calamity of the mind's subjectivity is key to the dissolution of finite sense of oneself and ultimately... is a catalyst for the clear realization of the one universal Self (non-self). Psychedelics are wonderful allies to get beyond one's mental fixations and the rock-solid confines of ego. Sure, the extremes of the cosmic roller-coaster ride can be damaging to the subtle nerves of the brain, if done to excess and may be a detriment to a healthy auric body. Even so, I believe our Creator gifted us with these Sacred Medicines to awaken us from our rigid mental predilections and fuse us with our own personal glimpse of the universal interconnectedness of all that is. There fore it is a natural process and those who criticize it are not meant to take such journeys. "To each their own." Right? I mean really, we find psychedelic Medicines in dry, scalding desserts, in damp woodlands and in dense jungles. There are no coincidences in this world.



The ugly side to those who practice "meditation"... is that it can foster spiritual pride and mild or extreme forms of megalomania. The Tibetan Buddhist poet/guru, Trungpa Rinpoche used to refer to this as, "spiritual materialism". Sometimes the seeker gets so obsessed with the seeking, that it becomes a prison (in and of itself) and quite the opposite of a true, spiritual level of consciousness. This in turn, generates judgmentalism and various holier-than-thou, attitudes and condescensions. Many overly intellectual, discipline-oriented characters gravitate to sitting meditation practice. One breakthrough experience with DMT would shatter much of this total BS, as it is a by-product of the temporal mind (ego) and not of the Soul, our link to the Absolute.

In my more extreme phase of spiritual seeking, I would sit in meditation for as much as 4 or 5 hours a day (broken up in 3 or 4 sessions, throughout the day & night). Frankly, much of the time I was not really meditating at all, rather, attempting to meditate. yeah, conceptualising about non-conceptualization and therein lies the greatest irony. While repetition and concentration are fantastic tools to still the chaotic thought-waves, this too is a nasty trap. I feel we are all, in our varied methods, attempting to shake our consciousness free of it's limitations. This is where psychedelics can be of tremendous value, to say the very least and why I keep returning to the well!!!

I cannot recall one Medicine Journey that I have taken, that did not contain much very deep meditation. in fact, every peak experience I have been shattered by, has been the result of decades of gradually becoming centered in my higher centers of awareness. So, meditating while tripping is probably the most powerful combination conceivable (as it removes the witness/ blasts one's subjectivity into billions of light particles, thus allowing a timeless moment of clarity. Beyond this, of course, is the Void and the realization of non-separateness. All is one and when the dreamer awakens to see himself/herself... there is no one to record the data. This is where the concept of God originates and what Einstein alluded to as an indivisible frequency of pure consciousness. A unified energy field of omnipotence, which is the true nature of all that appears to finitely exist (yet, whose reality is nothing at all, without a self to experience it). Sort of, kind of... and still, so much beyond the scope of words or ideas, that it is insane to try and speak of it. Perhaps this is why the illuminated Chinese sage, Lao Tzu, was quoted as saying, "Those who know the Tao, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know the Tao. The Tao that can be described with words is not the eternal Tao."

So, basically... I guess I should just shut up and eat my mushroom soup? Yes. I had some Monday night, after nearly 19 years time and it was simply Divine!!!

Familiar territory.



How?

I'm currently at this stage in my meditation practice and I am quite excited about this, how repetition (of the "I AM" mantra in my case) auto-magically leads to "stillness of the chaotic thought-waves". After 3 months of meditation, I also begin to notice what you describe as "gradually becoming centered in my higher centers of awareness". A sense of spiritually based self-confidence starts to build up. I also like how it became like brushing my teeth in the morning/evening. Not making it into some kind of esoteric ritual really helps.

I attempted to take up meditation practice several times in the past, but I never succeeded. Now I see the primary source of my former failures and it's so simple. I imagined meditation as doing something (breathing, concentration, visualization, whatever the practice calls for) versus everything else (getting lost in fantasies, day-dreaming). And when my mind did the "everything else" stuff, I got angry at myself because of that ( "how can you be so lame, try harder!" ) This attitude led to a disbalance and disharmony in my life (I acted out this anxiety in external life). So sooner or later I always stopped doing it because I found that it caused unwanted suffering in my life.

Then 3 months ago I found this site http://www.aypsite.org/ where this guy shares what he had learned about meditation with the rest of the world. This guy recommended the following approach: see the fantasizing, the day-dreaming as a part of the meditation practice. Here is how: I start doing the prescribed stuff (mantra in his case), then my mind *naturally* wanders away, then some time later I realize that it wandered away, then I gently go back to the prescribed stuff.

The trick is that I do not condemn the wandering away. He wrote that this wandering away happens when our mind finds a psychological "knot" and wants to "untie" it. This untie-ing is the wandering away and the realization of having wandered away *automatically* happens when the untie-ing process reaches its completion. Therefore it's natural then to get back to the primary process.

This way of overcoming the duality - and therefore the judgmental attitude and all the negative consequences this brings - proved to be the key for me.

Hi cellux,

Actually, me thinks I chose the wrong words with "nasty trap"... since of all the habitual fixations a human being can get caught up in, meditation is by far, one of the most benign. Even so, where it can get "nasty" is in the attachment the witness develops for the method. Have you heard the zen koan, "On the path to enlightenment, if you see the Buddha by the roadside... KILL HIM." I was disturbed by this statement 32 years ago, when I first read it but I have come to understand a little bit about the nature of the seeker's mind-set and this is absolutely necessary, at a certain level of understanding. Meaning? When we become fixated or attached to the form of our spiritual practice, it can eventually hinder us from true emptiness and therefore, Satori/Samadhi (enlightenment). Perhaps an analogy would be better to illustrate what I was getting at, since something about what I just wrote doesn't come across as I meant it.

When we turn inward and choose to concentrate on our breathing, heartbeat or mantra repetition, we experience a gradually increased level of peace and clarity. Now, the calmness and clarity this cultivates is very beautiful and I recommend this practice to any psychonaut (especially while under the influence), as a life-long practice. So, presented as this little story, it may seem more crisp?

One morning, while sitting in a blissful calmness, the loud sound of vulgar music starts to smother this peaceful feeling. Instantly, the mind becomes activated, however, with a sort of righteous indignation. This proliferates anger and resentment and then the whole mood is spoiled. "Who is that horrible person ruining my precious meditation?" So, as we can see, when the practice becomes an addiction, it is nasty. True meditation is the capacity to perceive the Divinity within all forms, even the foul music. Yes? So, I merely was suggesting that eventually... even the medicine has to be put aside, along with the disease, to be fully healed. Addiction to any type of medicine, be it a chemical or an internal practice of centering, creates dependence, so generating just one more complex variation of duality (and therefore, another self delusion). Am I making any sense? When sitting in a lotus posture, internally chanting (japa mantra), we are able to still our thoughts and center on one single point of consciousness. Beautiful, right? Beautiful or hideous, it all must be released to merge with the one. Even our cherished gods must be set aside or I/you/we will never perceive the fringes of the Void or shatter into the silence of eternity.

As I re-read my post... it does seem harsh, so to speak, to label the science of meditation as a "nasty trap". That being said, the seeker must sacrifice EVERYTHING, even the cherished concept of Divinity. Ultimately, the Wounded Healer must release the conditions of said meditation and find the oneness in the diversity. This, of course, comes after many decades of routine practice. In other words, don't stop meditating any other spiritual practice you fancy, PLEASE, just keep one eye on the way I/you/we habitually cling to the ritual and lose the quintessence of the desired frequency of consciousness we are striving to realize. Ram Das, author of BE HERE NOW, used to go down to the busy subway or crowded bus stations and do his japa mantra meditation. Let's face it, it is far easier to become centered in a serene environment. I personally love being out in nature when I sit. Mountain ledges, hill tops, rushing streams and by the crashing waves of the vast ocean... that's the very best place to watch your breath and tune your awareness.

So, ultimately... I was speaking in terms of the danger of mentally labeling this, "spiritual" and that, "profane". Any apparent differences are a subjective mirage, eh? All is God as all is One. Amen to that! BTW, I respect your resolve to enthusiastically continue to embrace your daily mantra repetition, as it is a time-honored and proven methodology to still the restless waves of the human mind and ego-driven desires and emotions. I haven't thrown in the towel or lost faith and I'm not likely to in this lifetime. I just keep one eye on the tendency to get lost in the rapture of worship, sweet as it is, because I don't want the dependence to be a barrier for me to see the inner light in all appearances and locations. But of course, who doesn't prefer to meditate by a babbling mountain brook, on a sunny day with a gentle wind whistling on the breeze?

Also, I really dig your mantra!!! I used that one for a stretch and it still sounds wonderful. It can certainly link to the Carrier Wave and beyond, which is where Sacred Medicines come into play.



Peace, love and Light

Yes, Sir, you make perfect sense!

My LSD experiences provided an exceptional learning aid in the understanding of this process, the play of maya... Finding the balance, growing proud in it, then finding out later that I again cornered myself to one side of a meta-level duality... Trying to overcome that also... until the whole "enlightenment process" I'm doing becomes one side of a duality... and then the two becomes the yin-yang and I am suddenly Mahākāśyapa smiling at the mudra of the white flower. :idea:

Yes cellux,

Isn't this one of the greatest paradoxes? To realize that everything we have learned is only valid from a subjective perspective and relative to said mental conditioning. The transcendent awakening to the inner reality, that all is pure unbound spirit... does create the most dramatic dichotomy imaginable! So if ALL IS ONE, then the illusion of duality is fundamentally false. For the witness to have the capacity to label one view as true and one false, there must be a separate self in judgement. When the seeker merges with the Void and dissolves into non-self, the last sense one can cognize is that God is indivisible consciousness. This subtle, yet profound thought if often prior or post Breakthrough experience. As with a solar eclipse, the blinding light of the sun and the cool reflectivity of the moon, merge for a passing moment (in and of itself an eternity).

No conceivable knowledge can be retrieved from this point of oneness, yet there is a lingering flavor which illuminates the pages of humankind's spiritual history. As is often the irony, this experience, as you alluded to, becomes the polarity of the Hell many of our species perpetuate. So what's a good seeker to do? I think that recognizing the tendency to become ingrained by this yo-yo effect, with it's highs and lows, is key to releasing the dangers of the SPIRITUAL EGO and it's myriad self reflections. It's really kind of a catch 22. To live free and unfixated, one must stop trying to grasp the moment. To consciously TRY NOT TO TRY is one of those awkward psyche wrenching paradoxes.

This may be one of the pivotal reasons I have been doing a very organic Zen meditation for the last decade or two. Essentially, that means to me, concentrating on my breath and the space between heartbeats. It becomes obvious in a small amount of time, one cannot control the rhythm of the beat and simultaneously live in a pure state of spontaneity. Early on, I surrendered to the state of becoming the impartial witness to the natural process and not the cause of it. In time I discovered myself becoming lost in the flow of the air, without a discernible beginning or ending.

This circular flow, coupled with the exploration of the emptiness between heartbeats and the deep silence between the beats. Not surprising, in this world of opposites, the silence reveals a multitude of droning, buzzing and an almost electric ringing tone or frequency of vibration. Like the sound the planet Saturn's rings generate, when recorded by the Voyager space probe. Man, I can get so high of that tone. This must be where the phrase, "The Roaring Silence" comes from? I can still recall the first time I got lost in this entrancing sound, under the influence of LSD-25. Acid always delivered this experience much more intensely than sh rooms or cacti. but then... after smoking Spice for the first time, I was really, really drawn completely within by this high-pitched ringing tone. I still can't seem to shake a touch of this miraculous music. I later read that this is referred to as the Carrier Wave.

The wonderful thing about this methodology of meditation, is that it is completely natural and all of these phenomenon are taking place every minute of every day, within our physical bodies. This practice has become my Holy Trinity and the food my soul craves the most. That is, when I am entering or returning from such states where I/you/we dissipate in the eclipse of self and Self (non-self) leaving no mirrored reflection or footprint in the sands of time, as WHO IS THERE TO LEAVE THEM? I find this yo-yo effect even more extreme under the influence of mushrooms, cacti or acid. the one time I journeyed with DMT crystals, I may have had the most immediate, vivid experience ever. I have to credit meditation with tempering my spirit and preparing me to release my hold on my cherished realities.

Peace, love and Light

Wow, Rising Spirit, you really dig this stuff. Your words are chock full of pointers.



Oh yes. Witnessing how that universal consciousness holds the two extremes flawlessly in ONE mind... having spent countless lives trying to match up the two basic pieces of the puzzle... then rise to the throne of zero and have my jaw dropped, my mind wrapping itself around the ingenious solution... holy gosh, they are both 100% present and they don't kill each other!

This is my favorite. How this emptiness or insubstantiality makes it possible to say 100% YES or NO. The meeting of Christianity and Buddhism in eternity. How the emptiness serves as a kind of support mechanism for the play of maya, which can be truthfully stated to be REAL, no quotation marks required. That the absolute reality is that only subjective reality exists.



Using the heartbeat? That sounds interesting. I have this problem that I cannot "detach" from my breathing process. I know that when I don't pay attention, my breathing goes on vegetative automation - if it weren't I'd surely notice it -, but if I meditate and am aware of my breath, I cannot "break" the connection between my will and my breath. I know it's possible (once in my life it happened spontaneously), but I don't how to "ease up" this fixation.

Using the heartbeat may be better - that's surely not controllable by my will (hopefully).

Listening to the space between the movements... that sounds deep. I'm still working on the trash. I repeatedly get back to this thing in my stomach. It feels like compressed fear. I try to observe it silently, hoping that perhaps it will dissolve but it's tough. Now I'm drawing its contours, every day it becomes more accessible. But I have no clue what I will do with it when it ripens (whatever that means).

Check it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scrwfvoleXw

I'm afraid to....

That has nothing to do with DMT. The title is misleading.

Dont be its ok

? I was sure that he was talking about it he did not directly say DMT but i thought that's was he was explaining his experience his awakening.

hey check this out

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=13983

I C So it looks like ive been beatin to it

that's awesome.. so amazing..