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Elemicin + Harmaline, why is the trip extended? Options
 
69ron
#1 Posted : 7/7/2010 9:24:22 AM

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SWIM has noticed that if harmaline is taken even at the tail end of an elemicin trip that the effects are boosted, and the trip is extended. Elemicin is not an alkaloid, and so why would taking an MAOI subtype A, like harmaline, extend the effects of elemicin? Sometimes the effect is extended by a whole 12 hours or so.

Can MAO subtype A decompose elemicin? Or is something else happening here? Anyone know?
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 

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polytrip
#2 Posted : 7/7/2010 9:38:44 PM
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Maybe the effect harmala's have on the levels of neurotransmitters in you brain is synergistic with some of the effects of elemicin. Or maybe elemicin is being metabolized to something harmala's DO have an effect on, like TMA.
 
jamie
#3 Posted : 7/8/2010 2:00:56 AM

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Maybe the 2 just synergise..if you smoke cannabis at the end of a mushroom trip it brings back the mushrooms a bit as well.
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69ron
#4 Posted : 7/8/2010 2:22:55 AM

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polytrip wrote:
Or maybe elemicin is being metabolized to something harmala's DO have an effect on, like TMA.


Back to this TMA theory again. I wish SWIM has had experience with TMA.

PiHKAL says oral doses for TMA are 100 - 250 mg. That’s much more than is present in 1 ml of elemi oil. SWIM’s oil is about 4% elemicin (that’s the amount of material that DMSO extracts from the oil). With 1 ml being about 880 mg, 4% comes to 35 mg. SWIM is extra sensitive to all psychedelics, usually needing only 1/2 to 1/4 the dose needed by other people. For SWIM 1 ml is needed for it to really be called a psychedelic experience. Below that, he can feel it, but it’s not really very psychedelic. Earlier I had issues with the TMA dosage, but now after more testing, I think the TMA dosage seems reasonable if all the elemicin is being converted to TMA.

Elemicin weighs 208.25 g/mol

TMA weighs 225.28 g/mol

So 35 mg of elemicin could become 37.8 mg of TMA if all of it was concerted. If most people need 100 mg of TMA to be active, SWIM could easily require only 25-50 mg, because he’s extra sensitive to all psychedelics.

The duration of TMA is 6-8 hours, and that matches the duration of elemicin almost exactly.

Let’s look at the only trip reports I can find on TMA, which are from PiHKAL:

Quote:
(with 135 mg) I had no nausea, although I always vomit with mescaline. Somehow my personality was divided and exposed, and this allowed me to understand my psychic structure more clearly. But maybe others could look in there, too. The psychiatric use of this drug would be interesting to pursue. It is not completely pleasant, maybe because of this personal intimacy.


SWIM cannot at all relate to the above trip report.

Quote:
(with 140 mg) There were not the color changes of mescaline there, but certainly a good humor and an over-appreciation of jokes. The images behind the eyes were remarkable and tied in with the music, and I became annoyed at other people's conversations that got in the way. I was out of it in eight hours. I would equate this to 300 or 350 milligrams of mescaline and I rather think that I would prefer the latter.


That report could possibly be similar to elemicin. It’s hard to say. The mood lift is there. The closed eyed visuals are there.

Quote:
(with 225 mg) There was quite a bit of nausea in the first hour. Then I found myself becoming emotionally quite volatile, sometimes gentle and peaceful, sometimes irritable and pugnacious. It was a day to be connected in one way or another with music. I was reading Bernstein's 'Joy of Music' and every phrase was audible to me. On the radio, Rachmaninoff's 2nd piano concerto on the radio put me in an eyes-closed foetal position and I was totally involved with the structure of the music. I was suspended, inverted, held by fine filigreed strands of the music which had been woven from the arpeggios and knotted with the chords. The commercials that followed were irritating, and the next piece, Slaughter on Fifth Avenue, made me quite violent. I was told that I had a, 'Don't cross me if you know what is good for you,' look to me. I easily crushed a rose, although it had been a thing of beauty.


It don’t see anything in that report that’s much like elemicin except for the enhanced perception of music. Elemicin is a mood lifter, and that report makes it sound just plain awful on an emotional level. But maybe that guy is just emotionally volatile by nature and the TMA just sort of brought it out more.

Unfortunately, that’s the limit of trip reports on TMA that I can find. None of them really sound very interesting to me.

An elemicin trip is very dreamy and I didn’t see any mention of that in those TMA reports. I can’t imagine someone taking a large dose of elemicin and not noticing that aspect of it. It’s the most dreamy psychedelic SWIM has ever experienced.

The other effect at higher doses that isn’t mentioned above with TMA is that elemicin causes a strong tingling sensation throughout the body that’s similar to many anesthetics, and is sort of like the bodily tingling sensations caused by high doses of Kava.

One of the effects of elemicin, claimed by a vendor, is it produces mild anesthesia, according to animal tests. I’m not sure of the accuracy of that information though. SWIM experiences tingling like that felt from some anesthetics, but not actual anesthesia.


So I’m inclined to believe that TMA is not formed from elemicin in humans and that either something else is or elemicin is itself active. Without having experienced TMA, it’s really hard to say though. Those trip reports above could be very misleading. They could all be from the same person. Who knows. It doesn’t say.



polytrip wrote:
Maybe the effect harmala's have on the levels of neurotransmitters in you brain is synergistic with some of the effects of elemicin.


This is a possibility.

Nutmeg oil contains myristicin, which some tests show is an MAOI. The effects of myristicin alone are said to be relatively uninteresting, and not as psychedelic as whole nutmeg oil is. Nutmeg oil has effects a little similar to elemi oil, but the effects are very long lasting, 36 hours rather than 8. Perhaps the myristicin’s MAOI effects are prolonging the effects of the elemicin, and altering them, and it’s not really the main active but elemicin is. According to animal tests, elemicin is twice as potent as myrisitin. Harmaline can extend the effects of elemicin, so maybe myristicin is doing something similar?


On a side note, I’ve noticed that there are several places that state that myristicin is useful for PREVENTING liver damage! I’ve always read it caused liver damage in older texts, but several newer sources say the opposite. I’ve also seen myristicin promoted as an anti-cancer compound. What the hell!

I keep seeing conflicting information on myristicin. Myristicin is actually less toxic than caffeine. Again, what the hell! Look at this:

Myristicin oral toxicity (LD50): Oral-Rat 4260 mg/kg

Caffeine (LD50): Oral-Rat 192 mg/kg

Myristicin is 22 times LESS TOXIC than caffeine!

Why is the internet filled with such scare tactics about myristicin use when it’s less toxic than caffeine.

Older tests say myristicin causes liver damage, newer tests say it protects the liver from damage. The older tests use massive amounts, the newer tests use reasonable amounts of it.

In the animal tests that show adverse effects of myristicin that I’ve seen, they’ve used doses that are astronomical. It’s as if they were designed to specifically show toxicity. Everything, even water is toxic if enough is used.

I’m getting very suspicious. It’s almost as if there’s a conspiracy to get people to stay away from myristicin. Is this the DEA doing this maybe?
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
Ginkgo
#5 Posted : 7/8/2010 5:48:35 AM

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You know, I would very much like the elemicin -> TMA theory to be correct, and then also gamma-asarone -> TMA-2. However, next to everything points in the direction that elemicin is active as is.

Take a look at the attached paper, which is a study on the metabolism of nutmeg. If the elemicin present in nutmeg was metabolized to an amphetamine derivative, we should have seen this metabolite in the urine. No amphetamine analogs are seen in the urine whatsoever, so it seems like elemicin is active as is.

For a shorter version, take a look at the attached image from the article. It shows the proposed metabolism of elemicin, compound 12. Compound 16 and 17 is found in human urine after consumption.
 
69ron
#6 Posted : 7/8/2010 9:08:42 AM

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Evening Glory wrote:
You know, I would very much like the elemicin -> TMA theory to be correct, and then also gamma-asarone -> TMA-2. However, next to everything points in the direction that elemicin is active as is.


Why is elemicin psychedelic? Safrole isn't psychedelic, it's a sedative. Myristicin is only weakly psychedelic, and it's also listed as a sedative. Beta and alpha asarone are also not psychedelic, both are sedatives. What's so special about elemicin that makes it active? Why is it stimulating while the others are all sedatives? That's strange.

The more I study this, the more it looks like elemicin is not a back seat driver in the effects of nutmeg, but rather it is THE active ingredient of nutmeg and that myristicin and the other compounds in nutmeg only serve to enhance and modify the effects of elemicin. SWIM's recent experiences with nutmeg oil have all felt very similar to elemicin. Elemicin is said to be twice as potent as myristicin, so even though nutmeg contains more myristicin, the elemicin is still a major player in the effects of nutmeg oil.

Keep in mind that nutmeg oil has different effects from nutmeg. Nutmeg contains things not present in the oil. SWIM is talking about nutmeg oil here.

It's starting to look to me like myristicin in nutmeg is playing a role similar to harmaline. I believe It's MAOI effects are enhancing and prolonging the effects of elemicin, and that it has only minor effects of its own.

The plants that are high in myristicin, but lack elemicin, are not known to be psychoactive. Bioassays of quite a few I read about showed pretty much little to no activity. Human tests of pure myristicin show its very weak on its own, and doesn't have the full effects of nutmeg.

I see all the signs pointing to elemicin being the main active in nutmeg.

SWIM would like to get hold of pure myristicin for testing purposes, but it's so damn expensive!

Look at this:

"Myristicin is an unselective MAO inhibitor, meaning it acts on both MAO-A and MAO-B. Nutmeg also contains the MAO inhibitors kaempferol and quercetin."

Is myristicin a non-reversible MAO inhibitor? I never saw mention of it being a reversible MAO inhibitor like harmaline. If it's non-reversible then it could easily extend the effects of elemicin for up to 36 hours, explaining the long trip felt from nutmeg oil.

I bet myristicin will act like harmaline and will enhance the effects of DMT, bufotenine, etc. It might even orally activate DMT if enough is taken.
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
Ginkgo
#7 Posted : 7/8/2010 11:15:36 AM

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69ron wrote:
Evening Glory wrote:
You know, I would very much like the elemicin -> TMA theory to be correct, and then also gamma-asarone -> TMA-2. However, next to everything points in the direction that elemicin is active as is.


Why is elemicin psychedelic? Safrole isn't psychedelic, it's a sedative. Myristicin is only weakly psychedelic, and it's also listed as a sedative. Beta and alpha asarone are also not psychedelic, both are sedatives. What's so special about elemicin that makes it active? Why is it stimulating while the others are all sedatives? That's strange.

Why is hyoscyamine stimulating while scopolamine is sedating? Why is LSD stimulating while LSA is sedating? We don't really know. Elemicin is a different compound than myristicin and safrole, just as hyoscyamine is a different compound than scopolamine and LSD is a different compound than LSA.

Different substances act differently. Even though the structures of two compounds are similar, they may have vastly different effects, even in some instances the exact opposite of each other. It is not unheard of that one compound is an agonist, while a very similar compound is an antagonist.

I agree that elemicin is the hallucinogenic compound in nutmeg, and that myristicin and safrole is responsible for the sedating effects, bloodshot eyes, dry mouth, etc. Variations in the proportions would account for the vastly different effects reported. Personally I have never tried nutmeg oil, only whole nutmeg.

3 or 4 whole nutmeg (15-20 gram I think) ground up and eaten resulted in around 15 hours with a feeling similar to a high-dose oral cannabis, minus all traces of euphoria and plus lots of burps smelling and tasting nutmeg. No hallucinogenic effects was noted whatsoever. It felt like a poison, so I guess what I ate was mostly myristicin and safrole.
 
69ron
#8 Posted : 8/11/2010 10:03:25 AM

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SWIM has done more work with this combination and so have a few of his friends.

It was found that harmaline will not increase the potency of elemicin if taken at the same time, or a few minutes before, a few minutes afterwards, etc., like it can with other psychedelics. So I don't think MAO enzymes have any effect at all on elemicin.

This has been tried by SWIM and several of his friends.

However, if taken during the effects, there is a boost of the psychedelic effects of both. It seems like harmaline is just sort of synergizing with elemicin, but not having any affect on its destruction.

Even long after the elemicin's effects seems to wear off, you can still jump start the effects by taking harmaline. And this can be done over and over. Note that, you can use harmaline to feel the effects of elemicin as much as 2 days after taking the elemicin!

So it's not actually extending the effects of the elemicin, just somehow boosting them until the effects of the harmaline wear off.
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.

If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
 
 
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