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Pharmahuasca Options
 
medicine 4 the mind
#21 Posted : 5/26/2008 1:15:21 PM

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this was swims 1st experience with syrian rue + dmt and all the visuals weren't as clear as smoked dmt, felt very blurred at times but still quite colourful. swim also pointed out that he felt quite disorienated on the trip so is guessing that it was probably from the rue.
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Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
amor_fati
#22 Posted : 6/6/2008 8:20:20 PM

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I've been considering a cold water citric acid extract of 3-4g of rue in around 200ml of water with doubly-filtered rue powder as my harmala component and 100mg spice in a small vial of everclear with the required amount of distilled white vinegar as my spice component. The idea is to take all of the harmala and wait between 5 and 10min or until harmala effects are felt and then take the spice elixir. I was also considering simmering the harmala brew with some egg white to pull oils and plant particles out of it by scraping it off the surface; if my understanding is correct, heating the solution would also convert the harmaline to harmine, and this is preferrable, right?

Any thoughts? Is there something I could change in this to have a more successful outcome?
 
rellik
#23 Posted : 6/6/2008 9:09:51 PM

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does anyone else find pharma more nausea inducing than normal ayahuasca?
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acolon_5
#24 Posted : 7/29/2008 4:02:41 PM

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rellik wrote:
does anyone else find pharma more nausea inducing than normal ayahuasca?


No, I find the plant based brews to induce purging more than harmine/dmt.

Caapi espicially seems to bring on "La Purga" quite efficiently.
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I am certifiably insane, as such all posts written by me should be regarded as utter nonsense or attempts to get attention.

I don't know SWIM and personally don't trust him at all. If SWIM is posting, most likely I will not respond...as I said, I don't trust the guy. YOU I trust, but never SWIM.
 
Jrednaht
#25 Posted : 8/5/2008 8:20:41 AM
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Would Harmine and DMT be better or Harmaline and DMT? Or does it make any difference?
 
69ron
#26 Posted : 8/5/2008 6:12:47 PM

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They are both different in effects. Harmine is more stimulating and harmaline is more sedating. Harmaline is about 2 times as strong as harmine. You usually need about 100 mg of harmaline or 200 mg of harmine for pharmahuasca.

Some people like the sedative effects of harmaline and find that it helps to make a more relaxed dreamy experience. Others like the stimulating effects of harmine and find it makes a more clear headed experience. But different people react differently to these compounds. These are just generalizations.

SWIM likes them both. SWIM also uses them without DMT and can get daydream-like visions from them on their own.

Most people usually prefer harmine over harmaline.
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69ron
#27 Posted : 8/6/2008 12:33:33 AM

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acolon_5 wrote:
rellik wrote:
does anyone else find pharma more nausea inducing than normal ayahuasca?


No, I find the plant based brews to induce purging more than harmine/dmt.

Caapi espicially seems to bring on "La Purga" quite efficiently.


SWIM never gets nausea from pharmahuasca. He uses pure harmine (200 mg), or pure harmaline (100 mg), and pure DMT. Sometimes he adds 5-MeO-DMT for that extra kick. He doesn’t take them in capsules. He dissolves them into lemonade and takes the harmine or harmaline 30 minutes before the DMT/5-MeO-DMT. It’s stronger that way.

SWIM gets a little nausea usually if he uses filtered tea from whole Peganum harmala or Banisteriopsis caapi. He hardly ever purges from psychedelics but B. caapi is the most likely to make him purge, but usually he just gets a little nausea from it.

B. caapi, P. harmala, pure harmine and pure harmaline all have different effects.
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amor_fati
#28 Posted : 8/6/2008 3:22:24 AM

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Harmaline is the breakdown product of harmine due to heat or other factors, correct? Because I believe harmaline has always treated me best. Taken the seeds in capsules is what I believe has been the most vicious.

The DMT end is troubling, as seemingly the only acceptable means of ingestion is in freebase by smoking or in salt crystal form (which is a little tasking) by encapsulating or maybe by insuffulation. The harmala end isn't too difficult, as there are many ways to eliminate the nausea it tends to induce; the only way to eliminate taste factor is by freeing the product and encapsulating, though.
 
rellik
#29 Posted : 8/6/2008 4:35:40 AM

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talking with a few others, they experience the same that pharma causes little to no nausea. then again ive only tried pharma style once and vomited after 5-10 min, maybe it was just a strange stomach day.
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69ron
#30 Posted : 8/6/2008 8:42:45 AM

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How much harmine or harmaline did you use? SWIM uses up to 100 mg of harmaline or 200 mg of harmine and no more. Those are visionary doses for SWIM even without DMT. At that dose SWIM doesn't get nausea. Much higher doses will cause nausea.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
adrian89987
#31 Posted : 8/6/2008 2:21:22 PM
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amor_fati wrote:
Harmaline is the breakdown product of harmine due to heat or other factors, correct? Because I believe harmaline has always treated me best. Taken the seeds in capsules is what I believe has been the most vicious.

The DMT end is troubling, as seemingly the only acceptable means of ingestion is in freebase by smoking or in salt crystal form (which is a little tasking) by encapsulating or maybe by insuffulation. The harmala end isn't too difficult, as there are many ways to eliminate the nausea it tends to induce; the only way to eliminate taste factor is by freeing the product and encapsulating, though.


You can swallow the freebase DMT crystals in a capsule as well..
 
amor_fati
#32 Posted : 8/7/2008 3:08:03 AM

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Too much belly-burble with freebase.
 
69ron
#33 Posted : 8/7/2008 5:29:02 AM

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amor_fati wrote:
Too much belly-burble with freebase.


SWIM also found the freebase is weaker because it doesn't absorb well. DMT fumarate is the best SWIM has tried as far as absorption goes. It absorbs really fast orally.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
rellik
#34 Posted : 8/8/2008 12:36:36 AM

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hmm, it was edit: (160mg, found my notes) edit: (oops harmaline not harmine, possibly too much) powder from an online vendor. im assuming its either synthetic or extracted and separated. 60 mg of clean white freebase was used as well. both were mixed into seperate oj and drank 15 min apart. i vomited shortly (id guess 10min) after the freebase ingestion. my stomach felt strange in comparison to a normal ayahuasca dose and the trip was still there at a low-medium level even though i threw up relatively quickly.

edit: ah, thanks ron69. I will need to try a salt next time
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69ron
#35 Posted : 8/11/2008 11:28:25 PM

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Quote from SWIM:
Quote:
I am able to get full on DMT effects at very low doses when used in pharmahuasca.

200 mg of harmine + 30 mg of DMT is enough for me to get very decent visionary effects. That's high on the harmine side for me, which is how I prefer it. At just 200 mg of harmine alone, I get closed eye visions. When 30 mg of DMT is added I also get open eye visions. DMT also smoothes out the harmine experience. DMT seems to clarify harmine’s effects making the trip more clear headed and the visions much more colorful.

I weigh about 280-290 pounds and I never fast, follow any diets of any kind before, during, or after taking pharmahuasca.

I don’t smoke. Tobacco contains b-carbolines and may cause smokers to need more harmine for it to be effective.

I also don’t drink alcohol. I have nothing against it, I just don’t like it.

I don’t smoke marijuana or take any other drugs regularly except I drink coffee everyday (sometime during a pharmahuasca trip) and I smoke freebase bufotenine at least 5-10 times a month (sometimes during a pharmahuasca trip).

I eat just about every king of food there is, and the only think that makes me nauseated during a pharmahuasca trip is chocolate. I don’t know why, but nothing else makes me nauseated. I can eat pretty much anything during the effects and my stomach is just fine.

Recently I’ve been taking pharmahuasca about 4 times a year. It’s not as often as I used to (about 4 times a month). I don’t have the time for it recently. I’m just too busy, so I prefer smoking freebase bufotenine (5-HO-DMT) instead.

I keep reading about people using 100 mg DMT and up in pharmahuasca. That's TOO MUCH for me! At 50 mg of DMT + 200 mg of harmine, I get enveloped in the experience and I’m beginning to lose control.


What accounts for such huge variations in dosage of pharmahuasca?

Jungle ayahuasca usually has about 150 mg of b-carbolines and 30 mg of DMT and most jungle users get plenty of effects from that.

Why do some people need 100 mg DMT or more?
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Infundibulum
#36 Posted : 8/12/2008 12:57:51 PM

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It's hard to say, maybe the fact that people consume ayahuasca more than once per session?

Maybe more diverse alkaloids present in ayahuasca in comparison to extracted DMT alone?

Different preparation of oral extracted DMT (freebase DMT vs salted DMT?)

Variation in the digestion process among individuals?

(SWIM has a full blast DMT trip with 30-40mg, but won't feel anything after 400mg harmala alkaloids and 200mg oral freebase DMT. Same goes with mushrooms, 15+ grams dry material just to get him started while his friends fall unconscious with 3 grams of the exact same batch!)


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
amor_fati
#37 Posted : 8/14/2008 1:36:09 AM

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I suppose smoking spice while on harmala would be considered a pharmahuasca preparation. I find that the hallucinations are of a more "primitive" nature than straight spice, and that the effects are more invigorating. Smoking it this way essentially induces an ayahuasca peak. So far, this my preferred method, though the prospect of insuffulation of the fumarate certainly strikes my fancy. At least with smoking, there's no risk of vomiting up precious spice, and I would imagine that insuffulation is much the same.
 
endlessness
#38 Posted : 9/2/2008 4:38:56 PM

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69ron wrote:


What accounts for such huge variations in dosage of pharmahuasca?

Jungle ayahuasca usually has about 150 mg of b-carbolines and 30 mg of DMT and most jungle users get plenty of effects from that.

Why do some people need 100 mg DMT or more?


Yes, I wondered a lot about that too.. here´s what I said in another post:

Quote:

and here lies one of the mysteries of pharmahuasca.. Mostly everyone taking pure extracted dmt says that a higher amount is needed compared to the reported ayahuasca dosages (Ott is the one that mentions this 30mg number ).. So why is that? There are a few possible reasons..

1- In normal ayahuasca sessions, people generally take more than one dosage. In santo daime, for example, it is generally at least 3 doses during a night.. So ppl are not limited to one 30mg, but to, say, 60 or 90mg or more... Whereas in pharmahuasca people take it all at once

2-In general, the b-carboline dosages in ayahuasca are quite strong, which may account to even less dmt being destroyed, or to a psychoactive effect of it´s own

3- One could also suppose that there is more to ayahuasca than the ´extracted purified principles´, that the whole synergy of the plants are responsible for stronger trips even in lower dosages..

4- Maybe people taking crystals dont have them purified enough, as compared to the accurate analysis where the ´30mg number in normal ayahuasca dosage´ came from.. Think about recrystallization, how one can lose half the amount of DMT depending on how yellow it is.. so maybe if everyone had very pure dmt the dosage would be closer to the reported analyzed one...

or maybe some other reasons one can think of... Fact is, it IS in general reported that more is necessary in extracted oral dmt... an interesting thing to research more about.


Also maybe SWIM thought that in the ayahuasca concoction, it could be that all the tannins and alkaloids in salt form and the complex mix of alkaloids in general could be absorbed differently (maybe more easily bypassing the MAOI, or whatever), resulting in stronger trip.


SWIM used already 200mg of freebase dmt with syrian rue tea and had very strong but good trip.. also same for 40g caapi with 9g MHRB tea.. and ayahuasca itself, it always varies, but SWIM generally takes in different rituals from different batches, so it´s hard to compare because strenghts are different each time..

In any case, definitely more controlled experiments are needed in this area. Also one common thing that indigenous people say (and also santo daime people) is that its not only about quantity. They say how sometimes you can take just a little but it can be very strong, or the inverse. I wonder if this is really so, or if its just some self-suggestion, set and setting, mistaken conclusions kind of thing
 
69ron
#39 Posted : 9/2/2008 8:29:20 PM

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endlessness wrote:
Also maybe SWIM thought that in the ayahuasca concoction, it could be that all the tannins and alkaloids in salt form and the complex mix of alkaloids in general could be absorbed differently (maybe more easily bypassing the MAOI, or whatever), resulting in stronger trip.


I think that's a big part of it. I know that different forms of drugs absorb differently and have different levels of toxicity. For example, oxalates tend to be quite toxic while citrates tend to be less toxic. Many ayahuasca users have noticed that DMT phosphate comes on quicker and it much stronger than other forms of DMT. Look at this quote from another site
Quote:
There's a huge thread about the "phosphoric acid method" or whatever on ayahuasca.com, something about DMT possibly absorbing better I don't know - but I did get some phosphoric acid and did make some DMT phosphate, and ate it, and it DID seem to not only come on faster but was a lot stronger for the 60 or so milligrams I took


SWIM has noticed that DMT fumarate is stronger than freebase DMT when taken orally with harmine. It comes on usually within about 5 minutes rather than 15-30 minutes for the freebase form.

The DMT in chacruna, chaliponga, and mimosa are present as salts. Each plant likely has a different salt form of DMT. Nearly all bark high in tannic acid, like mimosa, contains alkaloids as tannate salts. So it’s likely that if you just boil mimosa in water and don’t add any acid, you’ll get DMT tannate in your ayahuasca. Being used as leaves, chacruna and chaliponga most likely contain DMT malate, DMT succinate, or DMT citrate. Each of these natural salt forms have different levels of water solubility and would have their own potency level and oral absorption rate which would differ from each other and from freebase DMT.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
polytrip
#40 Posted : 9/2/2008 10:09:15 PM
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Maybe it also has to do with these 'mystery jungle alkaloïds'.
Or maybe there is just more DMT present in the plants then we can extract and is the body a better DMT -extracter then any lab-tool.
So there would be just more DMT present in ayahuasca, then we estimate. Or it could be some other tryptamines as well. Also, in some ayahuasca brews, there are other plants added. I know of one plant that is sometimes put in the mixture as well, that contains ibogaine, but i never tried this myself.
 
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