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Does Anyone Here Eat 5-MEO-DMT? Options
 
Apoc
#1 Posted : 6/15/2010 8:21:10 AM

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Hello. I have occasionally seen people talk about 5meo. I am surprised by its power, never tried myself though. But I've only heard of people smoking it. Is it possible to take 5meo orally? What's that like?
 

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69ron
#2 Posted : 6/15/2010 10:53:10 AM

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5-MeO-DMT works orally as is. It’s not that pleasant. It produces a lot of side effects like sour stomach, and other tryptamine style uncomfortable feelings in the body. It’s almost as bad as bufotenine is orally. It's much better sublingually.

However, if 5-MeO-DMT is taken with an MAOI orally, much less is needed and the effects are much nicer. It’s almost like DMT but more mental and less colorful, less visual.
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endlessness
#3 Posted : 6/15/2010 11:13:59 AM

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would you specify the dosages, ron? would be interesting to add to this thread
 
jungleheart
#4 Posted : 6/15/2010 12:43:20 PM

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Gah! Reminds me of a time when things were rather "dry" and all I had was some chaliponga and everyone said, "no no no" not orally active w/o maoi. Oh well.
 
picatris
#5 Posted : 6/15/2010 3:10:16 PM

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69ron wrote:

However, if 5-MeO-DMT is taken with an MAOI orally, much less is needed and the effects are much nicer. It’s almost like DMT but more mental and less colorful, less visual.


I apologize 69ron but that is not a good advice! here's a better one:

Do not use 5-MeO-DMT orally with a MAOI.

5-MeO-DMT is of known toxicity when used orally. Not everyone is affected in the same way, but there several cases ending up in Hospitals. You can find several reports in the scientific literature, where even some FATAL cases are documented. The problem is complex and different people are affected in different ways. Current research points to different allels of Cytochrome P450 2D6, that Demethylate 5-MeO-DMT into Bufotenin. This compound for several people can be highly toxic leading to extreme vasoconstriction even on low dosages of 2mg

I have been researching 5-MeO-DMT for some time, specifically on that ROA. If someone really wants to explore that perillous path I would advise to start really low and measure the way up. Starting with possibly 100 mg harmaline and 1 mg 5-MeO, and very gradually, over several days, increase the dosage of 5-Meo-DMT.

An important caveat is that, no matter what someone finds to be good for them with this compound, results should never be extended to other people for the reasons above.


Also do check this:

Hong-Wu Shen, Chao Wua, Xi-Ling Jiang and Ai-Ming Yu. Effects of monoamine oxidase inhibitor and cytochrome P450 2D6 status on 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine metabolism and pharmacokinetics. Biochemical Pharmacology Volume 80, Issue 1, 1 July 2010, Pages 122-128

A really state-of-the-art paper.




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endlessness
#6 Posted : 6/15/2010 4:25:18 PM

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Good post, picatris! Indeed we should be careful! Now that you mention, I do remember one of these fatal cases. The publication was:

Sklerov J., Levin B., Moore K. A., King T., Fowler F. A fatal intoxication following the ingestion of 5 methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine in an ayahuasca preparation. J Anal Toxicol 2005; 29: 838–41.

picatris wrote:

Also do check this:

Hong-Wu Shen, Chao Wua, Xi-Ling Jiang and Ai-Ming Yu. Effects of monoamine oxidase inhibitor and cytochrome P450 2D6 status on 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine metabolism and pharmacokinetics. Biochemical Pharmacology Volume 80, Issue 1, 1 July 2010, Pages 122-128


Yeah infundibulum posted it here


 
Ginkgo
#7 Posted : 6/15/2010 4:31:04 PM

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I have consumed 5-MeO-DMT orally with Caapi Copy. It was hell. Just hell. No real visions except gray tones, but extremely weird and painful physical sensations combined with an intense headache and bad vasoconstriction. I will never consume it orally again. It's great in medium doses sublingually though, even with Caapi Copy.

How can it be that it gives euphoria when absorbed sublingually, but gives dysphoria when consumed orally? Does it follow different metabolic pathways according to route of administration?
 
Apoc
#8 Posted : 6/15/2010 7:42:57 PM

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Thanks for those posts, pictaris, and evening glory. This is why drug sites are important. How else is someone going to learn the difference in effects between 5-MEO DMT and N-N DMT? Education is important. If you're a person curious about drug use, you need to research

Having read the posts in this thread, I will probably never take 5-MEO because it sounds not worth the risk. With internet research available, a person can see different accounts, weight the positives and negatives.... and assess how many people are saying good things, and how many are saying bad things. Of course, government or authorities will just tell you that every illegal drug is evil and will fry your brain, and that's obviously not true. Then you might have friends who will tell you why a certain drug is great. Who to believe? You don't have to just go by what one person says. "Yeah man, Xtasy is great". Well, if you research it, you'll find a lot of people actually have problmes taking E. I'll never touch that one either. Researching helps people determine what is an acceptable risk. Thanks ya'll.
 
69ron
#9 Posted : 6/15/2010 8:13:26 PM

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picatris wrote:
69ron wrote:

However, if 5-MeO-DMT is taken with an MAOI orally, much less is needed and the effects are much nicer. It’s almost like DMT but more mental and less colorful, less visual.


I apologize 69ron but that is not a good advice! here's a better one:

Do not use 5-MeO-DMT orally with a MAOI.


I've heard that before. However, SWIM likes the combo quite a bit. He doesn't get side effects from it. He finds it has more [EDIT: put "less" instead of "more"! What a bad typo!] side effects without the use of an MAOI maybe because more needs to be taken orally. So it’s BETTER for SWIM taken orally with an MAOI than without. Anyway, that’s SWIM’s take on it.

SWIM doesn't take massive amounts of 5-MeO-DMT. Maybe if you did, that might be of concern. Chaliponga is very often added to ayahuasca and it contains a lot of 5-MeO-DMT. In some parts of the world chaliponga is the only thing added to ayahuasca. So if it's as dangerous as claimed why aren't these people dropping like flies?
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SnozzleBerry
#10 Posted : 6/15/2010 8:16:59 PM

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My last several ayahuasca brews have consisted of caapi/chali and I noticed no adverse health effects. The chali has been in the 12 gram range or so.
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69ron
#11 Posted : 6/15/2010 8:19:32 PM

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SnozzleBerry wrote:
My last several ayahuasca brews have consisted of caapi/chali and I noticed no adverse health effects. The chali has been in the 12 gram range or so.


Yeah, I think this 5-MeO-DMT + MAOI thing doesn't much apply to oral use. I think it applies more to smoking massive doses of 5-MeO-DMT.

But SWIM has also taken 5-MeO-DMT sublingually with harmala MAOIs and found the combination really nice, without side effects of any kind.

If it was that bad, I don't think shamans would be using chaliponga with ayahuasca.
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Ginkgo
#12 Posted : 6/15/2010 8:26:44 PM

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69ron wrote:
If it was that bad, I don't think shamans would be using chaliponga with ayahuasca.

I concur, but my caapi+5-MeO-DMT oral experience says otherwise. Perhaps the dose was a bit too high. I am leaning more towards different metabolic pathways of 5-MeO-DMT in different individuals. This is a real mystery to me, as so many people enjoy chaliponga ayahuasca, while I became seriously ill with a similar combination.
 
69ron
#13 Posted : 6/15/2010 8:31:45 PM

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Evening Glory wrote:
69ron wrote:
If it was that bad, I don't think shamans would be using chaliponga with ayahuasca.

I concur, but my caapi+5-MeO-DMT oral experience says otherwise. Perhaps the dose was a bit too high. I am leaning more towards different metabolic pathways of 5-MeO-DMT in different individuals. This is a real mystery to me, as so many people enjoy chaliponga ayahuasca, while I became seriously ill with a similar combination.


SWIM does not like high doses of 5-MeO-DMT, no matter how it’s used.

What kind of 5-MeO-DMT was used? SWIM exclusively uses 5-MeO-DMT fumarate, never the freebase. That might make a big difference in toxicity. It's a known fact that some forms of alkaloids are more toxic than others.
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jamie
#14 Posted : 6/15/2010 8:42:00 PM

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Isnt oral 5meoDMT metabolized into bufotenine?

I really like smoking chaliponga extracts..Id lke to smoke pure 5meo, I think I would like it alot..but in ayahasca mimosa is superior IMO..I used to u chali, until I tried mimosa with caapi instead..its brighter, more colorful and feminen with less sickness.
 
polytrip
#15 Posted : 6/15/2010 9:08:27 PM
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I have used chaliponga several times as admixture in ayahuasca brews, and never had a bad experience with it. There are places, as ron mentioned where shamans prefer chaliponga over chacruna.

If it's taken in the right amounts, chaliponga with a MAOI is not dangerous at all. It's used this way for at least hundreds of years.

You can die from taking too much 5-MeO-DMT. If you take it with a MAOI, the dose needed is lower and probably the LD:50 in humans is lower as well when combined with MAOI.

One thing is definately true however and that is that sensitivity for this substance varies. To me, 10 grams of chali with caapi is very intense. Some people need far less to have very powerfull experiences, but there are also people who need much more.

Too much 5-MeO-DMT must be very hellish. I find that it's a very demanding substance. I once took 20 grams of chaliponga in an ayahuasca brew, and there where moments that i literally didn't know for sure whether i was still alive or whether i had just died.

On the whole i'm positive about the substance, but it is definately not something i like to do often.

I reject the statement that taking it orally with MAOI is dangerous, but you got to find out first how sensitive you are for the substance.

If you start using chaliponga as an admixture in ayahuasca brews, you better start with dosages below 5 grams. To many people that would be very powerfull and to some people it would even be too much already.

I would start with 3 grams of it. That's definately a safe dose and yet enough to get an impression of what kind of effects to expect. I wouldn't know in how many mg's of pure 5-MeO-DMT that would translate.

It is said that 1 to 2 mg's of the pure stuff is enough to get effects from (without MAOI), so i can see that taking amounts equal to n,n-DMT amounts in pharmahuasca, could be dangerous and maybe even lethal.

That doesn't mean however, that the combination of 5-MeO-DMT with a MAOI is by definition dangerous. It means that it's a powerfull substance and that the margins for safe doses are smaller than with substances acive in ten's of milligrams only.
 
69ron
#16 Posted : 6/15/2010 9:08:35 PM

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fractal enchantment wrote:
Isnt oral 5meoDMT metabolized into bufotenine?


Maybe a small amount is. That would explain some of the similar bodily side effects SWIM feels from using 5-MeO-DMT orally without an MAOI. It does sort of feel like oral bufotenine that way, but it's still very different from oral, smoked, or sublingual bufotenine. Bufotenine lacks the mind warp that 5-MeO-DMT is notorious for. You would never mistake one for the other. Their psychedelic effects are about as different from each other as psychedelics can possibly be.
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polytrip
#17 Posted : 6/15/2010 9:14:40 PM
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69ron wrote:
fractal enchantment wrote:
Isnt oral 5meoDMT metabolized into bufotenine?


Maybe a small amount is. That would explain some of the similar bodily side effects SWIM feels from using 5-MeO-DMT orally without an MAOI. It does sort of feel like oral bufotenine that way, but it's still very different from oral, smoked, or sublingual bufotenine. Bufotenine lacks the mind warp that 5-MeO-DMT is notorious for. You would never mistake one for the other. Their psychedelic effects are about as different from each other as psychedelics can possibly be.

Yeah, i think you can safely say that most of it is not metabolized into 5-HO-DMT.
With caapi it does get more visual. But it is still far less visually active than most other psychedelic's.
 
69ron
#18 Posted : 6/15/2010 9:21:19 PM

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polytrip wrote:
Yeah, i think you can safely say that most of it is not metabolized into 5-HO-DMT.
With caapi it does get more visual. But it is still far less visually active than most other psychedelic's.


SWIM's 5-MeO-DMT fumarate pharmahuasca experiences have all been very interesting psychologically, but seriously lacking in the visual area. The visions have been dark, without any color at all, but extremely complex.

It's definitely not the colorful visual experience of DMT or bufotenine with or without an MAOI. The harmalas do make it more visionary, but it never comes close to DMT or bufotenine in that respect.

5-MeO-DMT is mostly a "mind trip" experience. It can be EXTREMELY FREAKY at moderate doses, one of the most freaky psychedelics there is, so beware.
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polytrip
#19 Posted : 6/15/2010 9:29:41 PM
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There is another interesting element in it, wich is synestesia.
I find that the sense of touch kind of blends with other senses and specifically the visual sense (like something sounding pointy or the colour yellow feeling hairy, very weird and hard to understand if you never had it).

In that way it's simmilar to mescalin that does this even more.
 
jamie
#20 Posted : 6/15/2010 9:39:11 PM

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nono I am not saying that all the meo gets converted to bufotenine. I have drank ayahuasca with chaliponga many times its nothing like bufotenine. You have to take tons of bufotenine before you can get mental effects that begin to approach even DMT. By the time you get into the mental warping aspect of bufotenine the visions are soooo deep that you cant tell them apart from reality..with chaliponga in a brew I have had extreme mental warping without any visuals other than some faint black and white grids.

But there was a thread a while back talking about how meo gets converted in the body to bufotenine, any ammount of bufo i can imagine to be very sickening orally..even if a tiny bit is converted to bufo you will get constriction and nausea. There is also bufotenine in chaliponga already.
 
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