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My Angry Rant Du Jour Options
 
Bill Cipher
#1 Posted : 4/18/2010 5:52:15 AM

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With all of the recent hubbub over harm reduction within the community, I want to bring up an area for discussion which I think needs a LOT of improvement. This is something I’ve mentioned in various threads since joining over a year ago. It’s something I’ve appealed to the moderators over on more than one occasion, and I really think it’s important enough to warrant a thread for discussion.

In my opinion, there is WAY too much amateur medical advice getting casually thrown around here. I realize that we all have our takes on Big Brother and whatever, but as far as I know, there are no doctors here (at the present moment, anyway). When threads appear discussing depression, addiction, integration issues, etc., there are those who invariably pop up recommending avoidance of treatment. When someone new logs on and posts about experiencing psychotic breaks, there are always a number of replies recommending they go off their meds (or don’t start), and there’s often a push to lead them away from seeking professional help.

Regardless of what your individual feelings are on the subjects of the mental health field and pharmacology in general, I would really like to see a blanket policy come into effect that WE NOT DISPENSE ANTI-MEDICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH ADVICE, EVER. This is not the appropriate venue for it, and it’s just too fucking dangerous. I would like to see a concerted effort by the Mod Squad to try and enforce this, and I ask you all, in the spirit of safety, to give it a little thought.

We really don’t need any suicides here, and we sure as hell don’t want to cause any. If we’re not qualified (and we're not) to dispense pharmacological advice, let’s all just try and keep it to ourselves.

Let the angry responses begin...
 

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Entropymancer
#2 Posted : 4/18/2010 6:03:06 AM

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a1pha
#3 Posted : 4/18/2010 6:03:07 AM


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Art,

Thank you for saying this aloud. I've felt the same way. I read posts constantly from people who don't appear to have MDs, yet dispense medical advice like it's fun and games.

Peoples health is imperative and those of us not qualified in medicine should not be giving advice in it. Reading Wikipedia and posting information from it is NOT a medical degree.

With thanks,

--
K
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." -A.Huxley
 
ms_manic_minxx
#4 Posted : 4/18/2010 6:11:53 AM

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If I may please make a strange point that's not intended to argue the subject either way... (I will say the Aya forums adopted a no medical advice policy a little while ago for these very reasons.)

There are a lot of us who call DMT/Ayahuasca "medicine."
Some things will come easy, some will be a test
 
88
#5 Posted : 4/18/2010 6:56:51 AM

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Broadly speaking, I think it's good to share experiences - ie responding to a post with a "this is what happened to me that is kinda similar to what you're describing", even when that is in response to a thread about a medical or psychological issue... that's very much in the spirit and nature of this forum - we are exploring this molecule collectively here.

But we need to be clear when doing this that what we say isn't going to be misunderstood as medical advice or perhaps have unforeseen consequences. It seems to me that most everybody here supports responsible use and exploration, and this is really what we're talking about.
"at journey's end, we must begin again"
 
Blundering_Novice
#6 Posted : 4/18/2010 7:10:44 AM
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I think that when discussing non-specific matters, people should feel free to speculate as they see fit. But I must agree that when it comes to particular individuals with specific issues, caution must DEFINITELY be exercised.

For instance, if someone wants to discuss the perceived partial ignorance of modern medicine, by all means. But yeah, telling people not to take their meds against the advice of their doctors and whatnot is definitely BAD MOJO!!
 
kaleidoscope eyes
#7 Posted : 4/18/2010 11:45:26 AM

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I haven't been around here all that long & all,
but just imo, people should def be exercising caution/judgement when giving advice that could be extremely detrimental... But if there was just a blanket ban on mental health/medical advice- that does restrict more casual discussion of those topics... Eep I'm not sure if I'm phrasing this right, but I just mean people should be able to give general/casual advice on that kind of thing, as long as it's done mindfully. And I guess mods could just keep a look out on a base by base case kind of thing instead of a blanket ban..
the fictional character, kaleidoscope eyes, resides in the sky with diamonds and cellophane flowers
 
soulfood
#8 Posted : 4/18/2010 12:04:16 PM

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That would be a very good idea. This whole smear campaign that some folk seem to have on modern medicine is stupid.

Not only that, but to try and help/medicate someone you have never examined or even met and without a medical license is beyond the wall of ignorance.

There are some medical points that are good to talk about if folk have personal experience mainly for avoidance of undesirable combinations of substances and nasty reactions that may be best written up as a warning, but forums are not a place for diagnosis and medication.
 
obliguhl
#9 Posted : 4/18/2010 12:56:44 PM

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Quote:
WE NOT DISPENSE ANTI-MEDICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH ADVICE, EVER.


I totally disagree. I feel that psychotherapy is at least in some way a form of manipulating someone into consensus reality. What is "mental health" anyway? Is a shaman unhealthy? In our society...yes. I think psychotherapy is always an option, and I don't judge it per se...but it'S something to be very careful of and I won't stop speaking my mind about it.

The proposed policy is censorship in its purest form because it strongly dictates a way to think about a certain issue. I feel a balaced way of portraying things is a good thing and there are ALWAYS people advocating psychotherapy, so there'S no need to silence criticism.

If this policy comes in place, I will very much think about my stay at the nexus because this kind of censorship is something I can't accept at all.

edit: Oh, and forbidding health advice...how hypocritical is that? THE WHOLE PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCE IS , TO A HUGE PART ABOUT HEALING.

I can't believe it.
 
Trickster
#10 Posted : 4/18/2010 2:06:39 PM

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obliguhl wrote:
Quote:
WE NOT DISPENSE ANTI-MEDICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH ADVICE, EVER.


I totally disagree.


To a great extent I agree with obliguhl.

Most of people on this forum are sensible, well-educated grown-ups capable to decide for themself how to treat any advice or information.

I always try to get a second, third, etc. opinon on every serious issue regarding my health. Having an MD degree doesn't make somebody infallible.

Very often psychedelics experience relate to some deep personal psychological issues. Are there any trained professionals that can help me to interpret and integrate my deeply troublesome journey? What are we going to talk about if not about them? Extraction teks only?

And how about dosages of various substances, e.g. moclobemide? Am I supposed to ask my doctor how much should I take for proper inhibition?
Do not seek the truth, just drop your opinions.
 
Bill Cipher
#11 Posted : 4/18/2010 4:00:44 PM

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Trickster wrote:
Very often psychedelic experiences relate to some deep personal psychological issues. Are there any trained professionals that can help me to interpret and integrate my deeply troublesome journey?


There are, in fact, trained professionals who do nothing else but help navigate one's subconscious - and while an MD may not make someone infallible, at least it gives them an educated basis from which to draw their conclusions.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not proposing we abolish general or casual conversation. But your viewpoint, Obliguhl, that the goal of psychotherapy is to "manipulate" one into consensus reality is exactly what I'm talking about. It's fine for you to voice your opinion in a general debate - and while it's my belief that views such as these only serve to marginalize the community, this is really just an aside; you're entitled to your own beliefs and you're entitled to express them. But in a scenario where a person in crisis comes seeking a plan of action, and you chime in advising they seek out a shaman to treat their pychotic breaks - well, this I have an enormous problem with - and if you think an attempt to curb your potentially dangerous and uninformed bloviating is anything akin to censorship, I don't really know how to respond other than to say that you are wrong.

Blundering_Novice wrote:
For instance, if someone wants to discuss the perceived partial ignorance of modern medicine, by all means. But yeah, telling people not to take their meds against the advice of their doctors and whatnot is definitely BAD MOJO!!


That's really all I'm talking about - and the concept is not all that limiting.

I see DMT as "medicine" myself, and I believe in it's healing potential. That doesn't mean it will cure my colds or effectively treat my psychosis. What I'm talking about here is safety and responsibility, and I thought this was what we're about. People here tend to underestimate the gravity of mental illness, and they definitely underestimate the weight that their casual advice can carry.
 
obliguhl
#12 Posted : 4/18/2010 4:30:56 PM

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Quote:
I don't really know how to respond other than to say that you are wrong.


I think nexus members should not propose rules based on personal bias.

Quote:
and you chime in advising they seek out a shaman to treat their pychotic breaks - well, this I have an enormous problem with


Because you live in a culture, where a psychiatrist is the cure for every "mental problem". But its the psychiatrist who decides who is mentally ill. Make a test, go to a doctor and say you hear voices of little elfes telling you what is best to do. They'll give you something to numb your brain.

Now go to a shaman. He will know whats up because he knows the spiritual world. The psychiatrist DONT. So its imho dangerous to advice a psychiatrist over a shaman. At least for nexians who are quite a bit away from mainstream society. I would seek a psychiatrist only as a last resort.

As Trickster said, this is a community of adult, well informed individuals who are capable of making their own decisions. No need to nanny them.

Quote:
People here tend to underestimate the gravity of mental illness


No i don't. I've had schizophrenic friends. And while i accept that actual delusion DOES occur, i feel that a psychiatrist is a ridicolous idea for a psychonaut, at least in more or less mild cases, where no immediate danger for his or her life exists.

Sure i'd take neuroleptic "medicine" before I kill myself because of voices I hear.
But i'd also amputate my foot in case of sepsis.
 
endlessness
#13 Posted : 4/18/2010 5:05:28 PM

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I must disagree with you oblighul.. hearing voices is not all the same and shamans cant cure every psychological disease.

and you are forming a stereotype of what a therapist/psychiatrist is, without considering there are good ones out there too. Im a psychologist (though not clinical) and I know other professionals who are open minded and wouldnt straight away jump into giving you some anti-psychotic medication or whatever. Many regard that as a last option and what they care is that you deal well with your symptoms or general manifestations of your psyche, and not necessarily that you are 'normal'. Charles Grob is a good example of a good doctor too, for example, and there are many others, famous or not.

This being said, of course there are the other closed minded and pharma-backed doctors that would be quick to give you some mind-numbing medicine even if you didnt really need it, so its important to be careful with who (though unless you were violent, they wouldnt force you with that med so in the end its one's choice and responsibility to consume that medication or not) Also I dont think necessarily someone who is having difficulties needs to go to a doctor, it really depends.

In any case, I think it would be interesting to make a thread about how to find a good doctor in case one needs, what signs to look for in their practice, what things to be wary of, etc. Im trying to remember who else was a psychologist/psychiatrist here in the forum to collaborate in this thread with.. Clouds maybe?

I think we cant generalize saying that a shaman will cure a certain condition or a therapist will cure or whatever.. I think its case by case, sometimes it may be one needs one or a mix of things to get healthy, such as: change in life style, belief that one is gonna be cured, feedback from well informed people, traveling/change of general surroundings, but also it could be a psycho-spiritual intervention can help, and/or western medication too.... who knows.. it all depends, on the person, condition and context!

I do agree with the general point of the thread that we should be careful. If one says things like "dont go to a doctor", it should definitely come together with a disclaimer that its only one's opinion and not professional advice, and it has to be well argumented why, remembering that one's words may have direct significant impact on others. Even for those of us who are profesional, still counceling over the internet is not really possible (or at least definitely not so simple as giving an opinion on a forum). We all here in this forum have to be careful not giving irresponsible advice that others may take literally and hurt themselves (potentially hurting us too)
 
clouds
#14 Posted : 4/18/2010 5:06:45 PM

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http://www.dsm5.org/Prop...edrevision.aspx?rid=456

American Psychiatric Association wrote:
Hallucinogen-Use Disorder

A. A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by 2 (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:

- Recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, or home (e.g., repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions, or expulsions from school; neglect of children or household)

- Recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (e.g., driving an automobile or operating a machine when impaired by substance use)

- Continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the substance (e.g., arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication, physical fights)

- Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:

a. A need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect

b. Markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance
(Note: Tolerance is not counted for those taking medications under medical supervision such as analgesics, antidepressants, ant-anxiety medications or beta-blockers.)

- Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:

a. The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from the specific substances)

b. The same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
(Note: Withdrawal is not counted for those taking medications under medical supervision such as analgesics, antidepressants, anti-anxiety medications or beta-blockers.)

- The substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended

- There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use

- A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects

- Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use

- The substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance

- Craving or a strong desire or urge to use a specific substance.


Severity specifiers:

Moderate: 2-3 criteria positive

Severe: 4 or more criteria positive


Specify if:

With Physiological Dependence: evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e., either Item 4 or 5 is present)

Without Physiological Dependence: no evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e., neither Item 4 nor 5 is present)
 
Big Inhale
#15 Posted : 4/18/2010 5:09:43 PM

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obliguhl wrote:
Quote:
WE NOT DISPENSE ANTI-MEDICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH ADVICE, EVER.


I totally disagree. I feel that psychotherapy is at least in some way a form of manipulating someone into consensus reality. What is "mental health" anyway? Is a shaman unhealthy? In our society...yes. I think psychotherapy is always an option, and I don't judge it per se...but it'S something to be very careful of and I won't stop speaking my mind about it.

The proposed policy is censorship in its purest form because it strongly dictates a way to think about a certain issue. I feel a balaced way of portraying things is a good thing and there are ALWAYS people advocating psychotherapy, so there'S no need to silence criticism.

If this policy comes in place, I will very much think about my stay at the nexus because this kind of censorship is something I can't accept at all.

edit: Oh, and forbidding health advice...how hypocritical is that? THE WHOLE PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCE IS , TO A HUGE PART ABOUT HEALING.

I can't believe it.
Definitley in agreement with you on this one.
Can you Imagine? From one single Idea everything appeared here.
RZA

Here in the Prime Creators universe all things are possible,because all things are possible many lessons are learned.

None Of This Is Real!
 
obliguhl
#16 Posted : 4/18/2010 5:16:00 PM

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Quote:
and you are forming a stereotype of what a therapist/psychiatrist is, without considering there are good ones out there too.


How would you go about finding such a person?
 
Big Inhale
#17 Posted : 4/18/2010 5:28:11 PM

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Hallucinogen-use Disorder seriously all I see there is irresponsible drug use which could be solved by education and drug addiction which rarely happens with hallucinogens.
Can you Imagine? From one single Idea everything appeared here.
RZA

Here in the Prime Creators universe all things are possible,because all things are possible many lessons are learned.

None Of This Is Real!
 
clouds
#18 Posted : 4/18/2010 5:33:11 PM

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My opinion is that is is a very delicate subject.
According to the DSM-IV (and soon DSM-V), most people here have 'mental problems'. Including myself (a psychologist).

That's why I think that obliguhl has a valid point. If you go to a psychologist or a psychiatrist with the same arguments ۩ posted in the other thread, you can be SURE that you will be diagnosed 305.30 [quoted above] and soon also 292.84.

Of course seeking 'professional' help is always an option, but the answers to this problem are not as easy as Uncle Knucles suggests.

I have to say though, that if someone is ALREADY taking medications it is not recommended to use any type of psychedelic.

edit: Although that is ironic, since LSD can cure cluster headaches much faster and better than typical medicines for that particular problem.
 
jbark
#19 Posted : 4/18/2010 5:41:38 PM

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obliguhl wrote:

Quote:
No i don't. I've had schizophrenic friends. And while i accept that actual delusion DOES occur, i feel that a psychiatrist is a ridicolous idea for a psychonaut, at least in more or less mild cases, where no immediate danger for his or her life exists.


You see, obliguhl, this is exactly the sort of thing Art, and myself, are concerned about. Who are you, or anyone on this site for that matter, after reading a few lines scribbled in desperation, to decide that there is "no immediate danger for his or her life"? Correct me if I am mistaken, but you are just not qualified to distinguish between a mild case and a severe one. You can use your better judgment, but if that judgment leads you to advocate dismissing an option that has genuinely and effectively helped millions (because of a prejudice against institutionalized medicine), I think that it falls steeply down a dangerous incline. I am not advocating the rampant over-medication that seems to be epidemic in north america, or even necessarily meds (which can be effective, although often abused), but an overall policy of refraining from discouraging others from seeking valid and helpful treatment and therapy.

obliguhl wrote:
Quote:
I think nexus members should not propose rules based on personal bias.


You make a gross assumption that your position is not personal bias. Let's say we accept that our position is dogma. And let's say you accept that yours is possibly too. even ground. I have said this elsewhere, but given two conflicting dogmas, we should ALWAYS show preference to the one that will and has saved lives. (if you doubt this, I have two friends who would be no more if I had not intervened and got them the professional help you so abhor).

I will go one step further: yours is a personal bias (shared by many here)that is dangerous by virtue of exclusion; Art is not saying not to seek the help of a shaman, he is simply not excluding (and admittedly showing a marked preference for) giving advice that will lead people to seek out trained help in an institutionalized and regulated environment. And asking that a policy be instituted to prevent people from giving harmful advice to desperate individuals like: smoke more spice, there's nothing wrong with you, you don't need to do anything - you're on the right track, it's part of the healing process - is responsible, defensible and even admirable. Some people DO need help. Some kill themselves. Others cause physical harm to those around them. Advising them to do nothing, and not seek help, when they seem to be exhibiting signs of mental illness, or schizophrenia, or severe depression, IS irresponsible, and SHOULD as a policy be discouraged here.

We're all in agreement, I think, that spice/aya/fungus are healing medicines. But you don't take an aspirin for cancer or chemo for a headache or a medicine that challenges your consciousness when said consciousness is already teetering on the brink.

Trckster wrote:

Quote:
Most of people on this forum are sensible, well-educated grown-ups capable to decide for themself how to treat any advice or information.


When mentally distressed, one of the key symptoms is not being able to decide for oneself; and, residing beyond reason, being prone to listen to unreasonable lines of thought; if you had ever been truly desperate and mentally unstable, trickster, you would know that no level of education, sensibility or maturity can help you. There are pits, and there are abysses. You may have been in a lot of pits, but I must presume based on your statement that you have never been in an abyss...

Furthermore, you say "most". Although I clearly disagree with you, for the sake of argument, let me grant you that. What about the others? I mean the young impressionable ones (and no one here can presume to know the age of anyone else unless they have met them), who are still figuring shit out, and look up to people here, and are given dangerous mental health advice like : you just need to go into the forest and smoke a bowl of changa and all your problems will go away (paraphrased from an actual post). If I was 18 (or 15, or 13 - I am sure there are some out there) or even an impressionable 35 year old, that would be the advice I would listen too. Much easier than taking responsibility and seeking professional help.

Anyway, I could go on (and probably will after the incendiary responses I expect!), but in summary I sincerely hope we can all (eventually) agree that while mental and physical health is a valid and relevant topic to be discussed here, we should as a community strongly encourage members clearly in distress to seek out all available help, first and foremost the type of help that has helped countless numbers overcome their difficulties (including, in my case, family members, friends and lovers). While not qualified to diagnose or treat, I know whereof I speak.

Health and stability to all,
JBArk
JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
 
Ya
#20 Posted : 4/18/2010 5:58:31 PM

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Uncle Knucles wrote:

In my opinion, there is WAY too much amateur medical advice getting casually thrown around here.

I would really like to see a blanket policy come into effect that WE NOT DISPENSE ANY MEDICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH ADVICE, EVER.

We're not qualified to dispense pharmacological advice, let's all just try and keep it to ourselves.


Fixed. Now your advice appears slightly less biased, but I wonder if you'll be able to follow your own advice as posted.

And still, even with that fix, your proposal is pushing YOUR beliefs, about what is best for others onto Nexus members.

Many Nexus members DON'T believe it's in the best interest of others to risk being institutionalized "for their own good."

Leaving aside the irreversible damage caused by ingesting, and getting permanently addicted to, toxic petrochemicals.

Your advice, which you want to be the ONLY advice here from now on, is that others admit to doctors, "Hello, I'm crazy."

Unjust laws are in place allowing authorities to preemptively institutionalize those who doctors claim are potential risks.

Your advice, which you are confident is in the best interest of others, is like advising others to tell a cop "I smoke DMT."

Just laws can only imprison a human after that human has actually hurt another human, past-tense, not potential future.

Regardless of how relatively sane you feel you are Art, every DMT user can be easily institutionalized as potential risks.

I highly doubt you would push this idea of letting authorities decide, if the police bring a doctor to your house tomorrow.

And again, no matter what angry words you write, it is not right for you to try to decide what is best for everyone to do.

As you yourself admitted, you're not qualified to dispense pharmacological advice, so just try and keep it to yourself, or:

You have the right to continue giving your advice and everyone else here has the right to continue giving their advice.Stop

 
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