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IMPORTANT: spice color purity fallacy AKA is your dmt ok to smoke ? Options
 
endlessness
#1 Posted : 4/14/2010 11:54:58 AM

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I wanted to deal with an issue that commonly arises here. Often people ask 'is this spice ok to smoke', followed by some picture of some crystals or the description of the color of the spice. What I want to argue here is that spice color and how it looks is a very poor indicator of possible impurities, with few exceptions.

Yellow colour can be a number of things:

- Pure DMT itself has been shown to be polymorphic , so yellow may just be DMT itself. But it can also be other things:
-Oily non-volatile impure solvent remains (bad to smoke)
-Plant oils/fatty acids or other natural impurities (more likely ok to smoke, and can even make for a more efficient vaporization as it protects spice from the lighter's heat, though might taste a bit harsher)
-DMT N-oxide mixed in any proportions to DMT (ok to smoke, also psychoactive, some people even preffer it to normal dmt, others dont like it so much but it definitely works and is not dangerous)
- NMT (also psychoactive, though less potent than dmt, about a fourth of the potency).

It can also be a mix of all/any of the above. Usinc clean chemicals to extract will guarantee that at least you don't have any dangerous chemical impurities, and in that case yellow wouldn't be a bad thing in either way.

White spice can be pure but it may have colorless impurities like solvent traces or other invisible trace toxic impurities from chemicals used, which are not good to smoke. If you have made sure to use clean chemicals and clean procedure, and extracted DMT from a clean plant source, white spice is more likely of a reasonable purity.

Brown color can be the same as yellow color description above or it could also be that during the pulls, small droplets of the basified mimosa/plant liquid came across, which can mean harsh basic plant material and lye in your final product (this is usually associated with the dark naphtha issue, check FAQ for more info). It might be also some impurities from dirty chemicals/solvents used.

Red spice can be a mixture of plant oils, fatty acids or other plant impurities, or in the case of pulling with a more polar solvent like xylene, it can also be small amounts of a secondary alkaloid from mimosa (ok to smoke). Or it can also be some weird solvent non-volatile additives (not ok to smoke). Many people think red is necessarily the same as jungle spice, but that is not true, red can be any or all of the above, depending on solvent/chemicals used, extraction method, plant material, etc etc.

The exception: green/blue spice is a no-no in all occasions, forget that! your solvent is bunk, either throw your stuff away and start new (safer) or recrystalize it at least 3 times with clean solvent + washing with sodium carb, or ideally re-a/b, and then recrystallize.

And it becomes even harder to tell what the content is by color if you are not extracting from mimosa but from a plant such as acacia or another plant with possible different alkaloid content (phalaris, desmanthus, etc etc, because appart from all of what was mentioned above, you could also have a mixture of other alkaloids which might be beneficial like other active tryptamines or synergistic beta carbolines, or might be unwanted (like the potentially toxic gramine and related analogues in phalaris)

Your spice is ok to smoke when:

1- Your solvent evaps clean - As opposed to, for example fuel solvents with non-volatile components like rust inhibitors that may or may not leave your spice blue/green. Always do an evap test with your solvent in a pyrex/glass container to see if it evaps clean before using

2- You have let the spice dry for long enough to evap solvent traces - Showing picture of your spice doesnt help us see if there are solvent traces. Check by the smell, but even after solvent smell is gone, its recommended to break up the crystals and spread them in a plate/filter and let it air dry for some more hours just in case. Also, its possible that solvent traces are trapped inside the crystal formations, so redissolving your spice in some less toxic quick-evapping solvent like acetone or also ethanol/IPA (considering you can get them pure) and evapping again will help getting rid of those solvent traces.

3- There are no remains of the mimosa soup that carried over when separating the pulls - While NaOH does NOT vaporize at the temperatures reached by the lighter, it could come through as unvaporized particles suspended in the smoke. Also, the mimosa soup is not only NaOH but also plant material that will create very harsh smoke. If there is any black spots that may be from mimosa soup or you are unsure, better wash your solvent before evap/freeze precip, with dilute sodium carbonate solution, or recrystalize your crystals after evap/freeze.


4- If you avoided material made of plastic during your extraction. Plastic itself, or phthalates used in it's composition, can both theoretically end up in your final product, which is why they should be avoided, in particular plastic that isn't specifically made to withstand the chemicals used. Some solvents already come in plastic bottles but usually these are specially made fluorinated bottles that withstand the solvent. Using improvised ziplock as separatory funnel, making your extraction using plastic bottles that aren't specifically reinforced to hold non-polar solvents, etc, is all a big No-No. Please check THIS FAQ entry and the two links on why plastic shouldn't be used and how to potentially clean a product if it got in contact with plastic.

5- If you subjectively feel ok with your stuff - If you are affraid your spice is not good enough for some reason or other, its possible this will affect your experience negatively. Smoke it when you feel your spice is clean enough

6- If extracting from other plant form appart from mimosa hostilis, that you make sure there's no toxic alkaloids. For example if using phalaris, only try the product if it's been extracted with room temperature naphtha (that does not contain xylene) or room temperature limonene, because this seems to remove most of the toxic gramine, but even then, it's recommended to buy a reagent such as ehrlich to test your product or at the very least start with very small 'allergy' doses to see if there's any negative reaction. When extracting from different acacias or other dmt-containing plants, also start with low doses.

If you have not extracted the DMT yourself, you are probably not in the position to know the above points, which means it might not be safe to smoke the DMT you have. Extract your own, or if a friend gives you, be sure he works clean and considers all the points mentioned above. If you are still stubborn and will want to smoke something you didn't extract yourself even though we really recommend you dont, at least make sure it IS DMT you're dealing with (at least testing with a reagent like ehrlich to see if it tests positive), recrystallize it a couple of times, do a FASA conversion and reconvert it back to freebase, and this way you probably eliminate most impurities if it is DMT in the first place. But still, better not smoke anything you haven't extracted yourself.

hope that helps.. if anybody has any comments or wants me to add/change anything, please go ahead Smile
 
 
gammagore
#2 Posted : 4/14/2010 12:03:31 PM

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Excellent endlessness, this should be a "sticky"
 
vovin
#3 Posted : 4/14/2010 12:24:59 PM

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yellow is common. Back in the day pretty much everyone used to get the yellow goo from extractions it was only when washed and purification methods were better developed that people started to see crystals consistently./ Gotta be careful with the first time allot of people dont realize lye is white so lack of color doesnt guarantee a pure product.
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amor_fati
#4 Posted : 4/14/2010 2:26:20 PM

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vovin wrote:
yellow is common. Back in the day pretty much everyone used to get the yellow goo from extractions it was only when washed and purification methods were better developed that people started to see crystals consistently./ Gotta be careful with the first time allot of people dont realize lye is white so lack of color doesnt guarantee a pure product.


SWIM believes yellow to be the normal color of spice as an oil, as in, if anything remains in the product that won't allow it to crystallize (too much oxidized spice, solvent or other impurities) or if the crystallization methods aren't quite up to snuff. Lye contamination is generally considered to be an overstated risk: Lye is typically completely insoluble in solvents used for extraction and simply is not vaporizable or combustible by normal smoking procdure. However, droplets of the "basified soup" can make it into a product when using sloppy procedures, and while the actual content of lye is minute, the product's vapor can be incredibly harsh (likely due to the various volatiles and combustibles, not the lye).
 
bufoman
#5 Posted : 4/14/2010 4:20:54 PM

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Pure DMT freebase is a clear oil. However a slight impurity (1% or less) can give the yellow color. If one crystalizes several times from hexane a pure product that if melted is clear can be obtained. Pure DMT leaves no residue when vaporized (properly vaporized not burnt) and is only minorly irritating to the lungs. It is amazing how smoother it is when pure. People should strive to obtain pure product with whatever they are doing. DMT requires several recrystalizations to remove all the crap but it is well worth the time. It is much more rewarding personally and if it were to be ingested much less unhealthy.

SWIM always thought that the LYE contamination people are so worried about is nonsense. You could not smoke lye if you wanted to. However as stated one would not want to pull any of the aqueous soup into the organic solvent layer when evaporating. It is much better to leave a little solvent behind than leave a little water in the final product.
 
DeMenTed
#6 Posted : 4/15/2010 10:38:08 PM

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what they all said Razz
 
geeg30
#7 Posted : 4/16/2010 2:19:33 AM

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With your #3 I would be easier to decant/suck up the 'clean' solvent and return the rest with the offending black mix back into the 'mother' mix and repull. There is no need to evap/precip a pull that might have lye mix contamination.

If needs be, return the whole lot back into the mother mix and repull - it don't take that long to pull solvent.
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Apoc
#8 Posted : 5/10/2010 7:26:49 AM

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So it's basically common sense. You should know before you do an extraction if your solvent will evap clean, so that shouldn't be an issue. Basically, as long as it's dry and not blue, and of course if you didn't suck up any mimosa with base, which you will also know before your final product, then you can smoke it. So what's all the fuss about amonia washing and recrystalizing etc etc etc? Just wondering. I just freeze precip some spice, pour off the naphtha, and let the bowl dry. No further cleaning at any stage in the tek. Is this wrong or unclean? Just wondering to confirm forever and all time.
 
endlessness
#9 Posted : 5/10/2010 9:25:13 AM

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read nr 3, fnog.. Thats the reason most people recrystalize/wash, because of possible visible or not-visible small remains of the basified liquid that might have come across during separation and could make the smoke harsh.

If you are sure your separation was perfect and nothing of the black stuff got carried over, and if you dont think your dmt is specially harsh tasting, then no its not wrong or unclean to skip recrystalization or wash. But if you have never done it, I suggest you do it at least once and compare the products so you can decide for yourself more accurately if its worth it or not.



geeg30 wrote:
With your #3 I would be easier to decant/suck up the 'clean' solvent and return the rest with the offending black mix back into the 'mother' mix and repull. There is no need to evap/precip a pull that might have lye mix contamination.

If needs be, return the whole lot back into the mother mix and repull - it don't take that long to pull solvent.


Yeah you are at least partially right. The thing is that sometimes there are small basified suspended droplets that take a while to settle, or that are stuck to the sides of the container, or that you dont see well, so even though in general you can just return the 'dirty' solvent and pull again, there's always the chance there is a bit of the black liquid, so doing a wash or recryst will help making sure there is nothing there. But of course, this is no rule, each one should do what they feel achieves a product they are satisfied with.
 
DeMenTed
#10 Posted : 9/22/2010 12:03:27 AM

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Spice that hasn't been washed or re-x'd always tastes harsh to me.

I would say to apoc that he/she should try re-x'd spice to see if they notice a difference in the smoke. I certainly do Smile
 
vovin
#11 Posted : 12/13/2010 6:10:36 PM

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The basified solution is not soluble in the solvent but I have seen with my own eyes many times tiny almost microscopic bubbles of base solution in suspension in the solvent material. Some will fall out rather quickly some will be small enough to float for a long while. If you evap this stuff is going to be in your result. Good part is that once it clumps together is will no longer float so it is easy to remove.

Usually I also leave my solvent sit in a glass for about 15 minutes before pouring it off into the evap dish and any gunk that will fall out fast is in the glass.
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Ice House
#12 Posted : 12/13/2010 10:30:13 PM

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I take a 30cc syringe body, right, so I take the plunger out of a 30cc syringe and I fill that body with cotton. Then I pour my decanted spice laden solvent through that home made filter/funnel. It works great, IMO it catches 99.9% of the .001% of suspended basic crud that probably didnt get into the solvent anyway.

I dont ReX or wash any more. there is no need to. I have tried blind testing both. I cant find a difference. I am completely confident in my abilities to get this right. I've done it enough times now.


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Lodi
#13 Posted : 3/25/2011 10:41:40 PM

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I use an electronic siphon for gas, and have used it for a year with no problems, and it only cost me 30 dollars. I just siphon the mhrb liquid and hold the jug on a corner as I do it (good to have an extra set of hands, it can get tricky by yourself, but doable) and when it gets close to the naphtha shut it off. I use about 4 mason jars to decant the liquid, and then finish with decanting out of a glass baking measuring cup with a spout and a handle for a steadier decant. For me it has worked 100% of the time, it is fast and clean, and would advise some to try this method. Make sure you get the right siphon.

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The Observer
#14 Posted : 7/15/2012 7:56:37 PM

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Using Normans Tek for the masses (STB), and using the exact same procedures and NP solvent/NaOH, I have gotten snow white results (using Brazilian), as well as yellow results (using Mex MHRB).

Therefore, I believe, that the MHRB origin/etc. affects the spice color.......

Maybe its all psychological, but I have been experiencing more profound effects with the yellow.......

then again, I also have adjusted up to 35mg on both variations........

IMO
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Ice House
#15 Posted : 7/16/2012 4:16:48 AM

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The Observer wrote:
I also have adjusted up to 35mg on both variations........

IMO


If youre vaping your spice efficiently 35mg is a stiff dose regardless the purity. Yellow or white, 35 mg most often gives me hyperspace amnesia. if I step down to 30mg, I get a fully psychedelic breakthough dose that is going to rock me good. 25mg, Now thats more like it. Thats how it works for me, as we know everyone is different.

My point being, if you are going to test your theory that the yellow gives better results maybe you should try and back off your dosage a bit and then try a couple of blind tests with the assistance of someone you trust.

I have been there before. Tested the theories. I have a solid opinion now, one I am confortable debating with anyone.

Keep up the strong work.

Good luck and for god's sake be careful!

lol

IH

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behindthelight
#16 Posted : 7/28/2012 8:37:42 PM
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My only concern is having some naptha left in the spice when I vape it. I let a fan blow on my pyrex dish for about and hour before I scrape the crystal up. I think this should be enough. But maybe I should start putting the scraped up crystal on a piece of paper or something afterwords and crush them up with a razor to make sure all areas of the crystals are getting a chance to evaporate right?
 
skoobysnax
#17 Posted : 4/5/2015 6:05:28 AM

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Confused I did a q21q21 with a FASI and freebased the fumarates with sodium carb H2o slow crystallization method, then washed the excess carb with ice cold h2o. I still have a very slight d-limo scent. Really trying to not use naptha or hexane this time but the citrus scent persists. It is food grade but OK to smoalk?

EDIT:
yes but a tad harsher but still yums
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endlessness
#18 Posted : 4/5/2015 7:56:35 AM

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If you want to remove the limonene smell the best is to wash it with cold IPA or acetone when you have it in fumarate form.

In any case a tiny amount of limonene will probably not be a problem.
 
intosamadhi
#19 Posted : 4/5/2015 10:03:43 AM

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Endlessness - what would you recommend for someone using veg oil teks and producing acetates, in order to achieve a decently pure smokeable compound?

I have been basing with sodium carb and pulling with acetone in order to produce changa. All reagents are food safe so i would presume that the only impurities that might persist are oil residues. Do you think these are likely to make it into the end product when using acetone and if so how could one avoid this.

I don't smoke very often as i prefer other routes, but when I have I haven't found the smoke to be harsh at all. I usually take it via a waterpipe. This could just be me though, because others who have used it have said it was harsh for them.
 
endlessness
#20 Posted : 4/5/2015 10:55:19 AM

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I think that should be ok, intosamadhi, there shouldn't be anything problematic leftover there.

My guess is that they said it was harsh not due to impurities but due to the combustion of DMT itself, which can generate irritatint by-products. For these people like me who are sensitive to combustion, you should point them out to vaporizing methods such as the green buddha, inspirator mkII or the GVG.

Smile
 
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