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"Jungle Spice" - Mystery Alkaloids of Mimosa Root Bark Options
 
Entropymancer
#41 Posted : 6/27/2008 11:17:20 PM

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One last note: Now that the thing is finalized, I've formatted it into a pdf for handy printing and reference (it weighs in at 36 pages). The file is attached below, and to the original post.

I'd like to thank everyone who has attempted to extract this stuff and shared their results over the years. Without all of you, none of this information could have been put together.
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
burnt
#42 Posted : 6/28/2008 8:43:08 AM

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nice job! looks good.

i have come up with another idea on why jungle spice may be more potent then white spice. Perhaps the oily stuff keeps the DMT from being destroyed by oxygen in the heating process. If we look at the doses of pure DMT with different routes of administration:

50mg for good smoke dose

I believe about 25-30 mg for a good IV dose.

Then the difference in potency can be explained if less DMT gets destroyed on its way into the vapor phase when its surrounded by the oil. When its completely exposed to the air some of the compound most likely degrades and in a way lowers the bioavailability.

There is still also the possibility of other minor alkaloids and or tannins or terpenoid like compounds effecting various parts of the body to potentiate the spice.
 
lonederanger
#43 Posted : 6/29/2008 6:16:12 AM
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please continue to share your findings

xylene pull 3 room temp evaped fully: (edit: yields orange goo)
left: redissolved+reevaped in room temp bestine right: insoluble in room temp bestine
http://img78.imageshack....php?image=jpgnewvp1.jpg

edit: as bestine was added, the brown wax separated from the goo and yielded a solid product. the solid insoluble wax was powdered in multiple washes of bestine and decanted off. the orange crystals are the product of the combined evaporated bestine pulls.

edit2: the brown material was more solid than a wax as described earlier. quite brittle
 
burnt
#44 Posted : 6/29/2008 11:11:47 AM

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we have no proof that there is a secondary alkaloid in this kind of stuff yet.
 
burnt
#45 Posted : 6/29/2008 5:32:15 PM

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sugars are not soluble in non polar solvents. the oily stuff as mentioned is probably tannins. however it would be interesting if another alkaloid could be detected but a friend of a friend of SWIMs detected no such thing in GC-MS and if the compound was not stable under the conditions in the instrument it probably would not be stable when heated and breakdown. another analytical method would be useful in trying to investigate this buuuut one needs time to do the analysis.
 
whiterasta
#46 Posted : 6/29/2008 5:35:55 PM

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There is no doubt precursor compounds which may vary from plant to plant or even time of collection.In the absence of a complete scientific assay of many samples, I would not discount an additional active component(s) with a variable structure and activity level in Mimosa.There are too many subjective differences to the experience between spice from Psychotria and spice from Mimosa. Psychotria produces a consistent product with consistent effects. With Mimosa it seems to be a bit different with each extract. Then there is the fact that Mimosa ,at least when fresh and cold water extracted is orally active. This would require another active agent to occur. With Mimosa there is more than just spice involved.
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I can hold it in while I live, but it comes out when I die
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tossed from hand to hand you choose tails and I choose side."
Jimmy Haha
 
burnt
#47 Posted : 6/29/2008 6:05:56 PM

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Quote:
. With Mimosa it seems to be a bit different with each extract. Then there is the fact that Mimosa ,at least when fresh and cold water extracted is orally active. This would require another active agent to occur. With Mimosa there is more than just spice involved.


well if you take it orally with a cold water extract your are not destroying yuramamine or any other potentially active compounds. when you extract mimosa yuramamine or any other alkaloids (A/B or STB) don't seem to be present anymore. SWIMs friend of a friend has checked white spice extracted from mimosa for their purity using very sensitive methods and its surpisingly very pure (assuming you havent had N-oxide forming yet). "jungle spice" again the only alkaloid detected was the spice are all familar with. of course other compounds can be found in various plants but when your obtain a relatively pure sample of a compound it doesnt matter where it came from its still the same compound.
 
Entropymancer
#48 Posted : 6/29/2008 6:07:18 PM

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Yes, I agree there's no direct proof of a secondary alkaloid. What is certain is that there's something in there which is either biologically active, or acts in some physical way to increase the effect of the DMT (I have to say, this latter possiblity doesn't seem likely based on the available information... I could see where the oil might protect DMT from degradation, but it shouldn't increase the potency that much.... after all, the oil adds weight to the sample). All scenarios that make sense to me involve a chemical besides DMT which is biologically active.

As burnt points out, it's entirely possible this could be a tannin. We don't really know at this point. But the issue of jurema's oral activity, and the isolation of yuremamine still lead me to lean toward this being an alkaloid. It would be very interesting to know exactly what yuremamine degrades into under what conditions.
 
burnt
#49 Posted : 6/29/2008 6:20:57 PM

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Quote:
We don't really know at this point.


yea really all SWIM is doing is mostly speculation.

Quote:
, and the isolation of yuremamine still lead me to lean toward this being an alkaloid. It would be very interesting to know exactly what yuremamine degrades into under what conditions.


yea some other analytical approaches should be taken to answer this question. however thats quite a task. i wonder if the group that isolated the compound will report on its biological activity anytime soon. seems worth investigating.

however SWIM finds no subjective difference in the effects between jungle spice and white spice except the potency varies (a lot) and jungle spice comes on a bit slower. those were the only differences noted. also note that SWIM used the same batch of mimosa when doing these experiments.

so with what whiteraste brought up it could be that SWIMMers are extracting different strains of mimosa that have some different alkaloids. As far as SWIM knows two types of mimosa are around mimosa tenuiflora and mimosa hostillis but its been speculated that these are both the same species but perhaps there are different chemotypes of mimosa that contain some different alkaloids.
 
whiterasta
#50 Posted : 6/29/2008 7:29:59 PM

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Although I mainly am familiar with the vagaries of Trichocereus cacti, from this study I know that alkaloidal profile can vary between plants of the same species.Even the same plant during different times of day.
Also if one is analyzing a sample of an alkaloid and it is as you say white spice it has been selectively xtalized for DMT.It is the less pure samples which need investigated,also several extractions of the same material, using solvents ranging in polarity and pH of different ranges to really know if there is another extractable alkaloid or an active "artifact" in crude extracts. That this controversy exists over Mimosa and not Psychotria or the common wattles of OZ is yet another clue. Of course another factor is personal biochemistry relating to spice metabolism. I know of no studies which have investigated the vagaries of personal biochemistry in the ingestion of spice vapor. This alone could explain the differences in reaction to byproducts in Mimosa, like tannins. I do not claim proof ,just the very high likelihood of active secondary products in crude extracts of Mimosa given the wide variety of effects produced from extractions of supposedly the same species.

PS;
Crude Extract: first pass xtals freeze precipitated and washed with ammonia then dried.
White spice: crude extract recrystallized from naphtha or heptane to pure white crystalline powder
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tossed from hand to hand you choose tails and I choose side."
Jimmy Haha
 
Entropymancer
#51 Posted : 6/29/2008 7:40:25 PM

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Quote:
Quote:
We don't really know at this point.

so with what whiteraste brought up it could be that SWIMMers are extracting different strains of mimosa that have some different alkaloids.


That's a very distinct possiblity, that I personally find to be likely. It would almost be a surprise if the Mexican and Brazilian specimens had identical chemotypes. And as whiterasta notes, there are all sorts of other poorly-understood variations in phytochemical concentrations.


burnt wrote:
As far as SWIM knows two types of mimosa are around mimosa tenuiflora and mimosa hostillis but its been speculated that these are both the same species but perhaps there are different chemotypes of mimosa that contain some different alkaloids.


Mimosa tenuiflora and Mimosa hostilis are synonyms, referring to the same species. That's pretty well established in the literature. It could be that specimens growing in different regions vary in chemotype (seems pretty likely), but there wouldn't be a seperate "hostilis" and "tenuiflora" chemotype, as both terms refer to the same plant, and aren't regionally associated.
 
fourthripley
#52 Posted : 6/29/2008 10:18:40 PM
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I have read that M.Verucusa may be rather frequently misrepresented as M. Hostilis by commercial sources.
mistakes were made
 
Entropymancer
#53 Posted : 6/29/2008 10:24:01 PM

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Yep, that claim is pretty well documented (Section V.1). The major vendor whose pink-flowering plantation Torsten reported years ago still sells that same material, which they insist is Mimosa hostilis. Unfortunately, M hostilis only has white blooms.
 
burnt
#54 Posted : 6/30/2008 4:38:29 PM

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SWIM says its easy to seperate spice from the red oils. just extract with warm hexane.
 
mayahuasca
#55 Posted : 7/17/2008 8:36:35 PM

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there are at least a dozen mimosa species in mexico that i know of and only two are real mimosa tenuiflora which is the same as mimosa hostilis.

it is harder to find real mimosa hostilis, but it does grow wild here.

however, almost all of the mimosa species contain dmt and are fine for making extracts or ayahuasca admixtures.


Very happy
 
polytrip
#56 Posted : 7/19/2008 9:59:04 PM
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Has anyone ever tried an aceton pull?
 
Entropymancer
#57 Posted : 7/19/2008 10:38:41 PM

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Not that I know of. I think 69Ron has talked about soxhletting with acetone, but not with the intent of grabbing the red spice. Acetone is a little more reactive solvent, so depending on exactly what this stuff is, that could change what you get out of it.

If you're talking about pulling from an aqueous solution, I don't think that would work, since acetone and water are miscible. Maybe if the water was heavily salted?
 
69ron
#58 Posted : 7/20/2008 2:39:23 AM

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Acetone dissolves most freebase alkaloids very well. If you saturated the water with sodium carbonate, you can do an acetone pull. It will form two layers that way. SWIM has done that a few times when extracting freebase bufotenine, but it's a waste of sodium carbonate. It's better just to use DCM or a similar solvent that doesn't mix with water.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
Infundibulum
#59 Posted : 8/8/2008 2:56:12 PM

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69ron wrote:
Acetone dissolves most freebase alkaloids very well. If you saturated the water with sodium carbonate, you can do an acetone pull. It will form two layers that way. SWIM has done that a few times when extracting freebase bufotenine, but it's a waste of sodium carbonate. It's better just to use DCM or a similar solvent that doesn't mix with water.


Wow! SWIM was thinking on this method lately, SWIM dissolved 25g sodium carbonate in 100ml waterthen added 100ml acetone. The acetone separated forming a cloudy layer on top, containing acetone, water and sodiun carbonate. This was left to sit overnight and the next morning the acetone layer was clear, having absorbed some water and sodium carbonate. The pH of this mixture was reaching 12.5-13 (the reading was really jumpy!).

SWIM was thinking to extract MHRB this way and get all the alkaloids freebased and in the embrace of acetone. SWIM's currently thinking how he could proceed after that, possibly salting the alkaloids out of this mixture using fumaric acid.


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
polytrip
#60 Posted : 8/11/2008 5:35:46 PM
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i want to give this jungle spice a try. So i have a question. Would i have to evaporate the toluene or does the spice crystalize when i put it in the fridge? I only have a normal kitchen and i'm not looking forward to having these toxic toluene vapors hanging around in my house, so i would prefer not having to evaporate anything.
 
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