CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
Acetates, the solution to all needs DMT. Options
 
q21q21
#1 Posted : 3/10/2010 5:02:19 AM

SWIM


Posts: 1239
Joined: 08-Aug-2009
Last visit: 17-Mar-2021
Location: Nowhere, I'm not real.
SWIM has been working with acetates for a while now and he is now convinced that they can be used for every purpose that would be needed.

(1) creating a smokable jimjam product (tested)
(2) creating a smokable jungle+ N-N-DMT-oxide product (partially tested. separated but not evaporated/smoked)
(3) creating a smokable N-N-DMT product (partially tested, separated but not evaporated/smoked)
(4) creating an ingestable high-accuracy tincture for pharmahuasca, either (a)jimjam or (b)N-N-oxide+Jungle mix (tested)
(5) creating a sublingual tincture for lingahuasca, either (a)jimjam or (b)N-N-oxide+Jungle mix (tested)
(6) evaporating onto herbs for changa (purely theoretical)


Now whichever tek is used is not important, whether using a limtek, STB, A/B, whatever.

to create a situation with the freebase alkaloids from MHRB are contained within a solvent. Either d-limonene (tested), xylene (tested), or toluene (untested)

Once the solvent has been isolated from the bark then the mix is placed in a container that can be shaken without spillage.
Separatory funnel would be best.
A zip lock bag (that is solvent-safe) works perfectly fine.
A simple seal-able container, preferable glass or solvent-safe plastic could be used with a turkey baster and/or medicine dropper.

Added to the solvent is 20-25ml of 5% vinegar. The mix is shaken vigorously several times over 5 minutes.

(SWIM's calculations and practical tests suggest each ml can convert ~150mg of DMT (rounding down), so each pull can convert 3.000g to 3.750g of alkaloids.
SWIM's tests also suggest that at 95-99% of the alkaloids pulled by 5% vinegar are DMT related compounds.)

Once the bottom (now slightly-yellow) vinegar has been separated from the solvent via the separatory funnel, cutting the corner of the plastic bag or turkey baster the process can be repeated a second time with fresh vinegar in the solvent to make sure all the alkaloids are converted and dissolved into the vinegar.

The resulting vinegar can be dealt with in a few ways.

Although if it is left to evaporate at room temperature and a light-orange gel-like substance will be achieved.
This will contain .7575% freebase/ 132% the weight of freebase DMT and can be used for oral pharmahuasca or sublingual lingahuasca.

But this product is not very useful, it can be heated indirectly over a hot water bath (simmering pot) at >120F/49C to convert to freebase.
Though This method the slowest and least useful

3 others would be better and faster.

A:If the vinegar is placed on a flat-bottomed dish and evaporated slowly over a simmering or boiling pot of water (so the dish does not sit in, but above the water) then a pure freebase jimjam goo will be achieved

B:If the vinegar is placed in a food dehydrator and dehydrated then an identical pure freebase product could be achieved

C: (untested) If the vinegar is placed in an oven at 200F/95C then the same freebase product would be achieved, though the high heat could result in loss of product, SWIM will test the method.

Theoretically the vinegar could also be placed in a container with some herbs and evaporated indirectly over simmering/boiling water for enhanced-leaf for changa (6) though it would probably be easier just to melt the goo into the herb later.

Now assuming of of the lettered methods were used a completely smokable freebase jimjam product (1) is achieved. (tested)
(the acetates are evaporated off since the flash point of acetic acid is 39C. The process leaves the freebase behind)

These can either be used in a tincture by dissolving the product in a water/vinegar mix (1:4 vinegar to water has worked for SWIM) which can be used as an ingredient for oral pharmahuasca (4a) or sublingual lingahuasca (5a)

If this product is mixed with hot tap water then the jungle and N-N-DMT-oxide alkaloids will be dissolved and the freebased N-N-DMT will cloud up the water. (tested)

If the mix is put through a filter then the filtered water can be evaporated to achieve freebase jungle+N-N-DMT-oxide mix which can be smoked (2) or used as an ingredient for oral pharmahuasca (4b) or sublingual lingahuasca (5b) (untested)

The freebase DMT should be caught in the coffee filter and dried to achieve pure smokable N-N-DMT (3) (untested)

Conclusion: This method is useful because it can be adapted to be 100% food safe (lime + d-limonene tek) and even if lye or xylene are used then the final step makes sure that that no lye is left in the product and the evaporation evaporates the xylene, it there is any.

Apart from the safety aspect, this method is extremely simple using no materials other than vinegar and water, no strong bases need to be cleaned up/separated/purified. This method is relatively quick, the evaporation can be done in an hour or less and the salting in 5 minutes if you're fast. Previously the only other food-safe method of obtaining freebase jimjam/jungle required the impure and extremely slow evaporation of limonene. Now it is pure and quick.

Special thanks to Blueskine, his experiments with acetates were the first for removing acetates from DMT acetates

(this is clearly a first draft and once everything has been tested it will put in a tek with pictures and everything. This is just a jumble of words even some of the experienced DMT-ers might not fully understand.)
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 

Psychedelic news, articles, interviews and art from the DMT-Nexus and other sources.
 
plumsmooth
#2 Posted : 3/10/2010 10:32:56 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 311
Joined: 05-Jul-2009
Last visit: 04-Aug-2020
Am I that confused or isn't acetate the salt form. You keep referring to the "freebase" over and over again. I thought when one re-pulls with vinegar from Limonene that you are now in Salt mode as opposed to base. Am I missing something?
 
q21q21
#3 Posted : 3/10/2010 11:22:03 AM

SWIM


Posts: 1239
Joined: 08-Aug-2009
Last visit: 17-Mar-2021
Location: Nowhere, I'm not real.
plumsmooth wrote:
Am I that confused or isn't acetate the salt form. You keep referring to the "freebase" over and over again. I thought when one re-pulls with vinegar from Limonene that you are now in Salt mode as opposed to base. Am I missing something?


assuming of of the lettered methods were used a completely smokable freebase jimjam product (1) is achieved. (tested)
(the heat from the evaporation vaporizes the acetates since the flash point of acetic acid is 39C. The process leaves the freebase behind)

It's a process that is not knew, but is disscussed more in this thread

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...m=124173&#post124173
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
endlessness
#4 Posted : 3/10/2010 11:27:37 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 13915
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 28-Jul-2021
Location: Jungle
q21, I think all experimentations and knowledge-building in these areas are great! Personally, though, I dont really 'get' it... Acetates are sticky, annoying to deal with. Why not simply freebase for smoking? I like having solid products, not sticky goo, so for me it makes much more sense to have freebase for smoking and fumarates for oral/storing. (I mean this with no offense, keep researching)
 
Infundibulum
#5 Posted : 3/10/2010 12:54:57 PM

Kalt und Heiß, Schwarz und Rot, Kürper und Geist, Liebe und Chaos

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 4660
Joined: 02-Jun-2008
Last visit: 26-Jul-2021
There seem to be plenty of misunderstanding here;

What q21q21 is demonstrating is that what dmt acetate is heated then this salt breaks apart to dmt freebase and acetic acid. The acetic acid then evaporates and leaves back dmt freebase.

This is a definitely a novel and amazing finding; it means that having dmt acetate is convenient both for oral dosing and for smoking (since it can be converted easily to freebase by heating.

It also provides a good mechanism to explain some spurious observations; if one has evaporated his dmt acetate pull at too high a temperature he may also evaporate a good amount of the acetic acid and the freebase as well.

If one persists on applying gentle heat on the dmt acetate it will convert to freebase. If one has dmt acetate and is solid-ish it may be the result of "accidental" freebasing" (Note this when it comes to dosage). The latter should be fairly insoluble in water (as opposed to the dmt acetate).


q21q21 wrote:
[quote=plumsmooth]Am I that confused or isn't acetate the salt form. You keep referring to the "freebase" over and over again. I thought when one re-pulls with vinegar from Limonene that you are now in Salt mode as opposed to base. Am I missing something?


assuming of of the lettered methods were used a completely smokable freebase jimjam product (1) is achieved. (tested)
(the heat from the evaporation vaporizes the acetates since the flash point of acetic acid is 39C. The process leaves the freebase behind)

It's a process that is not knew, but is disscussed more in this thread

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...=124173&#post124173[/quote]

The bold underlined part may confuse quite some people. The heat from the evaporation vaporises the acetic acid part of dmt acetate (hence leaving the freebase), NOT the acetates.

The diagram below explains what q21q21 is proposing:
Infundibulum attached the following image(s):
dmt acetate breaking.bmp (516kb) downloaded 952 time(s).

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
endlessness
#6 Posted : 3/10/2010 12:58:57 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 13915
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 28-Jul-2021
Location: Jungle
but where do you store acetate? its a pain in the ass to mess with it, its sticky, its annoying to weigh it.. I really dislike sticky/gooey products, thats why I mentioned Id rather have fumarates for oral and freebase them for smoking. Each one for his own, though Smile

and sorry if I missed this but... what about acetic acid vapours? that cant be nice to inhale.. so unless one made a controled vaporization of the acetic acid to leave freebase in a hotplate, and only THEN smoked it, that will be a problem, no?
 
Infundibulum
#7 Posted : 3/10/2010 1:02:34 PM

Kalt und Heiß, Schwarz und Rot, Kürper und Geist, Liebe und Chaos

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 4660
Joined: 02-Jun-2008
Last visit: 26-Jul-2021
endlessness wrote:
but where do you store acetate? its a pain in the ass to mess with it, its sticky, its annoying to weigh it.. I really dislike sticky/gooey products, thats why I mentioned Id rather have fumarates for oral and freebase them for smoking. Each one for his own, though Smile

Well, you dont' store them; you just heat the acetates to, say 50 C till all the acetic acid evaporates, then cool down solidify and waxy freebases. Then store the freebases.
Wink

This is much faster (and ecological/econonical?) way to freebases than mixing with sodium carbonate, pulling with acetone/ethanol etc and then evaporating to get freebase. SWIM anyway does not store dmt as a salt but as the freebases instead. Some vinegar can convert them to salt for oral.


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
Pokey
#8 Posted : 3/10/2010 2:42:43 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 372
Joined: 24-Oct-2009
Last visit: 23-Feb-2021
This is awesome work!!Very happy
My only question is: Is there an easy way to convert from fumarate to acetate?

I have lots of fumarate and actually love the fact that it is dry and really easy to store, but I want to mess around with this new information.

Please advise.

Pokey
 
CosmicLion
#9 Posted : 3/16/2010 7:15:51 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member

Posts: 472
Joined: 22-Feb-2009
Last visit: 16-Jul-2021
Location: Oaxaca
Pokey wrote:
This is awesome work!!Very happy
My only question is: Is there an easy way to convert from fumarate to acetate?

I have lots of fumarate and actually love the fact that it is dry and really easy to store, but I want to mess around with this new information.

Please advise.


LOVING this acetate-freebase trick.

The big advantage long term would be to do a FASI for yield + ease then convert to Acetate for freebasing. Otherwise one could just pull from limonene using vinegar instead of fumaric acid and avoid using fumarate salts all together.

Although it would create an extra step, one could follow the following procedure:

Lets see... here it goes:

1. Do a BLAB to achieve alkaloid filled limonene

2. Salt out alkaloids using the FASI (Fumaric Acid Saturated Isopropyl) technique.

3. Take your fumarate salts and dissolve them into a little bit of water with a splash of vinegar.

4. Mix with Zinc to reduce DMT N-Oxide to N,N-DMT. Filter out zinc particles.
Note: Untested step. Should work, as long as Zinc Fumarate doesn't form well. Zinc Acetate shouldn't be a problem.

5. Add sodium carbonate to the mix to form a basic solution and release the DMT freebase.

6. Pull freebase into D-Limonene.

7. Mix limonene and vinegar well then let separate.

8. Evaporate the vinegar to yield your acetate salts or evaporate vinegar with heat to yield your freebase!

It's big, and leisurely. Can't be in a rush!

Maybe this will offer some insight.
-Eternally Romping the Astral Savannahlands-
 
amor_fati
#10 Posted : 3/16/2010 9:35:21 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 2291
Joined: 26-Mar-2008
Last visit: 12-Jan-2020
Location: The Thunderbolt Pagoda
q21q21 wrote:
These can either be used in a tincture by dissolving the product in a water/vinegar mix (1:4 vinegar to water has worked for SWIM) which can be used as an ingredient for oral pharmahuasca (4a) or sublingual lingahuasca (5a)


SWIM doesn't think that a 1:4 ratio of vinegar to water is adequate if 69ron's warning about the potential of the tincture to spoil is valid (seems likely enough). Supposedly the pH needs to be below 4, and distilled white vinegar (5% acetic acid) is ~2.5 on its own. SWIM has tried drops of straight vinegar under his tongue, and the burn is fairly insignificant, especially if administered properly. What SWIM's recommending is to simply dissolve freebase in vinegar directly in a dropper bottle, evaporate the contents until only acetate goo remains, add fresh vinegar to ensure a high enough pH to preserve the contents.
 
mumbles
#11 Posted : 3/17/2010 8:02:50 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 557
Joined: 09-Sep-2009
Last visit: 26-Jun-2012
Is there a difference in the taste/numbing action of dmt acetate vs dmt freebase when administered sublingualy?

Infundibulum wrote:
This is much faster (and ecological/econonical?) way to freebases than mixing with sodium carbonate, pulling with acetone/ethanol etc and then evaporating to get freebase. SWIM anyway does not store dmt as a salt but as the freebases instead. Some vinegar can convert them to salt for oral.
Sure but it all requires you start with the freebase, which you will have anyway if you have performed an a/b or stb, so swim doesn't really get why people would be converting back and forth between the acetate and freebase. Sure its nice to know its possible but just store your freebase and pull out portions to convert to salts.
 
amor_fati
#12 Posted : 3/17/2010 3:24:21 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 2291
Joined: 26-Mar-2008
Last visit: 12-Jan-2020
Location: The Thunderbolt Pagoda
mumbles wrote:
Is there a difference in the taste/numbing action of dmt acetate vs dmt freebase when administered sublingualy?


SWIM can't compare, as he never went for the straight freebase, but there is a good deal of numbing with the acetates.

Quote:
Sure but it all requires you start with the freebase, which you will have anyway if you have performed an a/b or stb, so swim doesn't really get why people would be converting back and forth between the acetate and freebase. Sure its nice to know its possible but just store your freebase and pull out portions to convert to salts.


SWIM believes the point to be that this would be a fast and more direct way of going from a strong extraction solvent (limonene, toluene, xylene) to freebase without going through the trouble of collecting a salt, then converting. The only way to get a freebase product more directly than this is to either evap or freeze precip, both having significant limitations and drawbacks.
 
Pokey
#13 Posted : 3/17/2010 9:05:05 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 372
Joined: 24-Oct-2009
Last visit: 23-Feb-2021
That's it exactly Amor Fati!
BLAB is where it's at for me; it's easy, fun, full spectrum yields are spectacular, and it produces a very hard and stable salt- just right for storage. It would be nice to have a really simple way to convert that to freebase. The idea of just heating a salt to get freebase is most excellent! All I need is an easy way to convert fumarate to acetate and all will be well in Pokey's world.Very happy

Pokey
 
narmz
#14 Posted : 3/17/2010 10:01:04 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 472
Joined: 19-Mar-2009
Last visit: 02-Jun-2018
Pokey, can't you just salt out with vinegar instead of fasi or fasw to skip the fumarate to acetate conversion?
Everything I post is made up fiction. SWIM represents a character who is not based in or on reality.
 
amor_fati
#15 Posted : 3/18/2010 2:02:48 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 2291
Joined: 26-Mar-2008
Last visit: 12-Jan-2020
Location: The Thunderbolt Pagoda
narmz wrote:
Pokey, can't you just salt out with vinegar instead of fasi or fasw to skip the fumarate to acetate conversion?


SWIM believes Pokey's referring to fumarates already on hand. This is SWIM's reply. But yes, if going this route, no need for fumaric acid, at all.
 
Pokey
#16 Posted : 3/18/2010 3:52:48 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 372
Joined: 24-Oct-2009
Last visit: 23-Feb-2021
narmz wrote:
Pokey, can't you just salt out with vinegar instead of fasi or fasw to skip the fumarate to acetate conversion?

Yup, but Amor Fati is right, I have a bunch in the freezer already. Also, everything I've read about acetate makes it sound like a pain in the ass to handle and store, so I was thinking it would be dandy to have an easy conversion from fumarate to acetate, then just heat it to get freebase!

I'm gonna check out Amor Fati's reply now. He always has good advice.Smile

Pokey

Edit: Well he has good advice for sublingual applications, but the more I read about acetate freebase conversion, the more I want to try it. I may salt out my next extraction with vinegar just to try it out.
 
mapp
#17 Posted : 12/21/2010 4:48:57 AM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 170
Joined: 17-Mar-2009
Last visit: 26-May-2021
So does removing these non-spice acetates and cleaning really make for a largely noticeably different better or 'purer' experience than the full spectrum acetate (in changa and huasca, SWIM's case limonene tek)? Or is it mainly the convenience/cleanliness sake? SWIM's worked with acetate goo only (infused leaf and orally) but doesn't really think he'll need another form and hasn't had a problem dealing with the somewhat impure syrup Smile internally and externally. The only reason he can see is if SWIMs prefers to smoke freebase alone, (using less dmt compared to changa), but of which SWIM isn't real interested in anyway. SWIM was under the impression acetate form was better for oral absorption and works well infusing leaf. Well there's more 'an 1 way to skin a cat!
Well in either case, SWIM has had success recently using this inscribed water boil vapor technique evaporating his acetate goo into herbs, 10-15 minutes or so few inches above the boiling water, ~200mg spice/herbs, bioassayed a success, seems to be a better TEK in this case than waiting for acetone to dry and smell Smile, he'll have to try it again in the future. BTW this will work with fresh vinegar pulls as well but would take too much a longer time/better to just evap to goo first? edit: SWIM realized that may work but 'tate goo can be weighed...


Quote:
endlessness wrote:
but where do you store acetate?

SWIM puts his goo in gel caps, his 00 empty caps on average weigh 115mg so thats how he measures, and keeps in a fridge.
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.123 seconds.