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amor_fati's Guide to Juremala WIP Options
 
amor_fati
#1 Posted : 3/8/2010 6:18:42 PM

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Transition from Linguahuasca experimentation to Mucosahuasca:
amor_fati wrote:
Bear with SWIM, as his sublingual technique is largely left to instinct at this point. SWIM now supposes that sublingual absorption is accompanied by the likelihood of absorption in the oropharynx. SWIM would best suppose that the absorption occurring isn't strictly that of the sublingual mucosa, but more generally that of the greater oral mucosa. Saliva accumulates with the purpose of washing substances into the rest of the digestive track, but swallowing immediately and rapidly will prevent any tincture from being washed too far into the track. Rapid and immediate swallowing will result in the tincture coating the oral mucosa as far as the oropharynx but likely no further.

SWIM may have to rename this method of administration, "Mucosahuasca," as short for "Oral Mucosahuasca." What this finding presents is the possibility of developing an effective spray administration, possibly just as effective in the nose as in the throat (for the throat, SWIM could imagine a pressurized spritzer being incredibly effective, especially if one would like to dissolve the product in a more viscous substance). Glycerine will be key in making this a bearable process by enabling the elimination of excess acid while preserving a solution with an adequate shelf-life. From SWIM's experience, this could be accomplished with either a fumarate or an acetate.



Original OP:
Quote:
SWIM also intends to create a more generalized writeup for the handbook, based on his material, and open to collaboration.

quotes originally from: https://dmt-nexus.me/forum/defau...aspx?g=posts&t=10240
amor_fati wrote:
SWIM placed about 550mg of presumably full-range jurema freebase placed directly in a 7.4mL dropper bottle, then dissolved to the mark with distilled white vinegar and placed in a hot water bath prior to being shaken vigorously. The harmaloid tinctures in use were aprx. 3.5mg/drop.

10 drops of harmaline were administered sublingually by dropping in sporadic locations under the tongue and immediately rubbing it in with the bottom of the tongue while swallowing any saliva buildup before it has a chance to commingle with and dilute the tincture. 10 more drops were administered in the same manner followed by 5 drops of THH. All of these doses were administered in fairly rapid succession, mere minutes apart, to include the following spice tincture, with 10 drops administered in the same manner.

The come up was a bit slow, but it was definitely coming on. SWIM didn't want to miss the mark and waste any harmaloids, so he administered 10 more drops of the spice tincture within 5-15min following the prior 10.... SWIM didn't know what hit him within the next 5min or so, it came on so strong. This experience was a sort of hybrid between the normal smoked and swallowed effects--almost a completely new experience on its own. SWIM knows for certain that the sublingual absorption was the route in play, because 85mg harmaloids and 50mg spice would not have been orally active for SWIM. Whether much, if any, made it into the stomach would be unlikely, regardless, as the concentration was such that it would likely absorb prior to to reaching the stomach by any accidental ingestion.

SWIM will need to experiment more, but he plans on trying it with 20-30drops THH, then with harmine, etc. SWIM isn't holding out for this working without harmaloids, simply due to the length of time required for the effects to set in. For SWIM, this is now the ideal way to administer pharma, as he would venture to guess that it will work as well every time at the right dosage and with the benefit of having no discomfort to the stomach.


amor_fati wrote:
SWIM found that 35mg of THH missed the mark for 50mg spice, but his friend accidentally got a bit more THH (likely between 40-50mg) and had much more activity than SWIM. The next day, SWIM had aprx. 70-80mg of of about 1:1.5 harmine to THH, and it was incredibly strong. SWIM got the end of the short playlist he was listening to and decided to play around with audio hallucination (sort of the audio equivalent of CEV, since it's not indistinguishable from real sound...more like a voice in the head that you can "hear" quite clearly). Anyway, SWIM felt incredibly heavy and debilitated, the room was largely unrecognizable, and SWIM reached a sort of infantile state (happened with harmaline in prior experimentation, but in a different sort of way).

SWIM would guess that to adequately activate spice in sublingual use, one would have to take nearly as much of a harmaloid as spice, if not more--at least in the case of THH. SWIM wouldn't go much higher than 80mg of harmaloids and would keep it in the lower range with higher ratios of stronger RIMA's, like harmine and harmaline. Don't skimp too much on the harmaloids, or the few harmaloids and the bit of spice administered will be wasted.

SWIM recommends 30-40mg spice between 1:1-1:2 ratio with harmaloids, going easy on the harmaline and harmine.

Also, deep breathing seems to help keep SWIM's mouth drier during administration.


amor_fati wrote:
SWIM wanted to say thanks to q21q21, Epiridion, and 69ron for turning him onto sublingual spice. He's pretty sure that there's no going back, and that the only way he would ever go back to traditional oral use is with a traditional brew. With this method, pharma can be much more validated as a wholly different experience from ayahuasca and legitimized in its own right. He's going to author a wiki writeup for the manner he goes about it, but it's going to be changing a great deal as more info becomes available; he wants this writeup to be as comprehensive as possible.


 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Pokey
#2 Posted : 3/8/2010 8:17:07 PM

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I'm very excited about this project! Thank you Amor_Fati!

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mumbles
#3 Posted : 3/9/2010 6:03:20 AM

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Nice to see this getting some attention. Sublingual administration has so many benefits over oral (much more efficient use of spice, no stomach issues) and smoked (longer duration).
 
universecannon
#4 Posted : 3/9/2010 6:17:15 AM



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Great work thank you!
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azrael
#5 Posted : 3/9/2010 6:20:17 AM
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Very exciting work Very happy

Is the duration comparable to pharma? Does increasing the harmaloids lengthen the experience?
 
q21q21
#6 Posted : 3/9/2010 7:01:10 AM

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Sounds good, SWIM hasn't yet repeated the experiment, he feels he has finally recovered from his oral pharmahuasca breakthough.
This weekend he will try THH + DMT again.
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

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amor_fati
#7 Posted : 3/9/2010 2:47:34 PM

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azrael wrote:
Is the duration comparable to pharma? Does increasing the harmaloids lengthen the experience?


The effects, to include duration, are comparable to pharma, even more powerful in a lot of ways. SWIM thinks that duration is not really a factor here. Increasing harmaloids just seems to make it more powerful. SWIM's working his way backward from these more powerful experiences to find the minimum of acceptable harmaloid usage, then he'll try working with different amounts of spice.
 
mumbles
#8 Posted : 3/10/2010 6:14:58 AM

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Swim would like to know where the light effects range is for sublingual spice/harmalas so he can start small and adjust it for various settings. You don't always want to be blown away, sometimes something small like 1.2g of dried cubes can make the ordinary more interesting.
 
amor_fati
#9 Posted : 3/10/2010 4:06:53 PM

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mumbles wrote:
Swim would like to know where the light effects range is for sublingual spice/harmalas so he can start small and adjust it for various settings.


SWIY probably would want to avoid harmine and harmaline altogether and just go with THH. SWIM found 35mg THH with 40mg spice to be active but just barely so. SWIM would recommend trying 40-50mg THH.


If the differences in harmaloid doses seem too drastic (lower set of doses doing very little but higher sets doing too much), SWIM would imagine that taking the lowest dose that seems like a bit much and simply lowering the dose of spice would help to find a happy median.
 
mumbles
#10 Posted : 3/11/2010 2:43:28 AM

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Swim can't import THH without going to jail so its simply not an option.
 
yayscience
#11 Posted : 3/11/2010 3:06:09 AM
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Yeah, I too would want to avoid THH if possible. Would approx. 15 mg of rue extract work?
 
amor_fati
#12 Posted : 3/11/2010 2:43:30 PM

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Only one way to find out: Find the minimum of harmaloids to activate a decent amount of spice, play around with different doses of spice. SWIM's not sure sure how easy this will be to pinpoint, but just give it a try using SWIM's findings as a starting point. SWIM will do what he can, but it's slow-going, and his resources are limited.
 
Infundibulum
#13 Posted : 3/11/2010 2:50:29 PM

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Amor fati thanks for the information! SWIM is very curious to try that when he has time.

Does SWIY recommend and good solvent to dissolve the harmalas into? Water? also which salt of harmalas we're talking about?

The issue with sublingual dmt is indeed fascinating, does anyone feel that one of the determining factors may be the dmt-acetate? Did anyone had success with other dmt salts?


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
amor_fati
#14 Posted : 3/11/2010 6:13:03 PM

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Infundibulum wrote:
Does SWIY recommend and good solvent to dissolve the harmalas into? Water? also which salt of harmalas we're talking about?


SWIM has had plenty of good experiences with HCl salts, albeit a little painful at 30mg or more, but only in conjunction with vapor. All of SWIM's recent experiments with sublingual spice have been with acetate tinctures of both the spice and the harmaloids.

Quote:
The issue with sublingual dmt is indeed fascinating, does anyone feel that one of the determining factors may be the dmt-acetate? Did anyone had success with other dmt salts?


One theory that's been put forth is the instability of the acetate salt-form allowing for ease of dissociation, pertaining the both the absorption of the spice as well as in terms of heat application (smoking and freebase conversion). Unfortunately, SWIM is a bit unfamiliar with the principles that would explain this.

SWIM's fumarates are fairly pure and do not burn at all, so he was considering attempting doses identical to prior experimentation with the fumarate in place of the acetate to see if there really is a marked difference.
 
Infundibulum
#15 Posted : 3/12/2010 11:17:51 PM

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Hm....

SWIM tried this with 150mg harmaline hydrochloride suspended in a bit of water (enough to make it like thick mud and administered sublingually for 15min after which time he swallowed everything. In the meantime he prepared 60mg dmt by dissolving them in 4ml of vinegar and applied sublingually for another 15 min after which time it was also swallowed.

SWIM felt nothing but the vile, putrid, unhallowed and rotten disgustingness of vinegar upon swallowing. SWIM wonders whether he did something wrong or whether dosage for subingual administration is as variable among individuals as is pharmahuasca. Next time he'll also try to dissolve dmt in some vinegar+calea zacatechichi decoction to mask the taste of vinegar with something far nicer-tasting.

Effectively for SWIM that was a sublingual-turned pharmahuasca in the end. For pharma he anyway needs at least 200mg dmt to maybe feel something happening.


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
amor_fati
#16 Posted : 3/13/2010 4:34:45 AM

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Sorry Infund, but you're simply not doing it efficiently. If you're using pure harmaloid extract, and there's anything left to swallow, you haven't absorbed it all (also, the water is unnecessary, as your mouth has more than enough moisture). 4mL of vinegar is way too much vinegar. SWIM doesn't specify waiting periods because he simply does not wait, one set of 5-10 drops comes immediately after the the previous one (though no real rush, very casual-like); all doses can be administered within 5-10min, tops. If you do it how SWIM recommends in his writeup, it will work.

SWIM also requires larger doses when swallowed, but the point of this is not to swallow.
 
The Wizard
#17 Posted : 3/13/2010 4:00:15 PM

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i am most certainly gonna have to try this

 
Trickster
#18 Posted : 3/15/2010 1:20:45 AM

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Yesterday SWIM tried FV Caapi tincture sublingually. Very painful and yucky. Burning sensation was so horrible she could not keep it under her tongue for long. So it was not exactly sublingually.

SWIM took 200 mg of harmalas (57 drops) followed by 50 mg of spice diluted in few drops of apple vinegar sublingually. She could not keep the spice in her mouth for long and swallowed it as well. Actually the spice that was diluted in 5% vinegar was much more bearabe comparing to the Caapi tincture. SWIM wonders what acetic concentration is in FV tincture?

In 30 min came heavy nausea. SWIM was tripping medium-hard for about an hour. If it were not for puking and heaving the journey would have been very good.

At +1h30m the nausea subsided and SWIM took another 70 mg of Caapi tincture and 50 mg of spice. Again due to horrible burn she could not keep it in her mouth for long and swallowed. Even now, more than one day after the experience she is salivating hevily when recalling the feeling.

30 min later she was tripping very hard. This time the nausea was more bearable.

SWIM hopes that there is a better way to take harmalas and spice sublingually. Even now parts of her tongue did not regain its sensitivity.
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amor_fati
#19 Posted : 3/15/2010 5:46:30 AM

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Trickster wrote:
SWIM hopes that there is a better way to take harmalas and spice sublingually.


amor_fati wrote:
If you're using pure harmaloid extract, and there's anything left to swallow, you haven't absorbed it all (also, the water is unnecessary, as your mouth has more than enough moisture). 4mL of vinegar is way too much vinegar. SWIM doesn't specify waiting periods because he simply does not wait, one set of 5-10 drops comes immediately after the the previous one (though no real rush, very casual-like); all doses can be administered within 5-10min, tops. If you do it how SWIM recommends in his writeup, it will work.


The writeup's not yet complete, but the information contained there and in this thread should be enough to contrast the cause of these bad reports. There should not be anything to keep under your tongue--no puddle, no pile, nothing--as, if administered in the way SWIM recommends, the sublingual agents will absorb rapidly.

From what SWIM can tell, most need to forget what they think they know about sublingual administration and give SWIM's technique a shot. "For best results, apply thinly."

Some good pointers from another thread:
69ron wrote:
You want as much surface area as you can get of your tongue’s underside exposed to the alkaloids, and you don't want them getting too wet. Place them under your tongue and press your tongue down hard on them, holding them there between the underside of your tongue and the bottom of your mouth. Your tongue prevents them from being drenched in saliva. If you move your tongue too much, saliva will get to the alkaloids and ruin everything. You don’t want them getting wet.

If you use a tincture, spread the liquid under your tongue and press your tongue down on the bottom of your mouth so that the liquid doesn’t get diluted with saliva. Hold it there.

If you taste the alkaloids, you’re not doing it properly. You should not taste them. If you do, that means they are leaking out from under your tongue. After 10 minutes or so, you can release them because most of them have already absorbed.

It’s not as easy to do as it sounds at first. Most people don’t do it right the first few times. It takes practice. But once you perfect it, it’s easy to do.

Remember, if you can taste the alkaloids, you’re not doing it right. There are NO taste buds on the bottom of your tongue. If the alkaloids are held properly between the bottom of your tongue and the bottom of your mouth, there they will stay, and there will be NO TASTE AT ALL. Any taste means it’s leaking out from between your tongue and mouth and getting diluted by your saliva. That’s exactly what you don’t want.

Again, IF YOU TASTE THE ALKALOIDS YOU ARE NOT DOING IT RIGHT. Keep practicing until you reach that goal and no longer taste them.


69ron apparently does it in much the same way as SWIM, though SWIM's never thought about the use of taste to gauge effectiveness of technique; he'll explore that a bit when he gets the chance.
 
69ron
#20 Posted : 3/15/2010 7:45:28 AM

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The taste of the alkaloids, if sensed by the tongue, causes an automatic release of saliva. This is a natural reaction and there to start the process of digestion. That’s exactly what you don’t want.

Keeping the alkaloids under the tongue is hard at first. To do it right you need to fight your natural instinct to digest them. Your tongue is going to want to move slightly to allow the saliva access to the alkaloids. You need to hold it tightly against the alkaloids. The idea is that you sandwich the alkaloids tightly between your tongue’s bottom surface, and the bottom of your mouth. As long as they remain there, you cannot taste them and saliva production should not be as much of a problem.

Also, spreading the alkaloids to cover as much of the bottom of your tongue as possible is very important. A lump of alkaloids doesn’t work well at all. They should be spread thin. This is probably the hardest part to perfect. Pressing your tongue down on a lump of alkaloids is pretty ineffective, and trying to spread them once they are already in your mouth as a lump is very hard. It’s best if you can manage to spread them thin before clamping your tongue down on them. Anyway, this is the hardest part to get right and different people use different ways to spread the alkaloids.

Sublingual use is not easy to learn. SWIM took a lot of time perfecting it.

With something like 5-MeO-DMT, you can mess up big time and it still works, because it absorbs rapidly. But with something like DMT acetate, absorption time is much slower, so the technique used is critical. If you mess up, it’s not going to work.

With DMT acetate, it’s just like using Virola calophylla resin sublingually. You need to hold it there under your tongue. It needs to be well spread. And you can’t let saliva build up where the resin is or it will not work well at all. You can take a dose strong enough for full blown visions, and if you mess up on technique, you might feel nothing at all from the resin. The same applies to DMT acetate.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
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