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Summary of jungle spice analytical work Options
 
bufoman
#21 Posted : 8/25/2010 12:03:27 AM

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SWIM has also looked into the jungle spice phenomenon with GC/MS. Her results are inline with Burnt's. The major peak was N,N-. There was a much smaller peak (less than 1%) which gave a ion at 186 suggesting the TH-b-carboline N-methyl-pinoline or it could be the 2-methyl Burnt and Shulgin suggested but without a ref we won't know (ions: 186 (40%) ; 185 (20%); 144 (20%); 143 (100%); . Note: SWIM said this is unlikely an artifact as pure N,N- did not give such a peak. One other minor peak may have been an artifact of degradation and she was unable to determine the M+ from background.

Method: Following multiple pulls (at least 5) with boiling hexane, a golden brown residue still remains. GC/MS results for this residue shows it contains a large quantity of N,N-. As Burnt said it is likely that other non-volatile portions are present in the JS as well. However based on the intensity of the peaks it seems N,N- is a major component.

SWIM has also been unable to detect N-oxide. Other claim that N-oxides give unique peaks but I bet it is variable based on many factors. Thus it is possible that some N-oxides are being detected as their parent compounds via degradation. Without a reference standard we won't know. SWIM Also just wants to let people know the a rxn with N,N- and 10% H2O2 at 1 hour lead to a large amount of unreacted N,N- and the formation of substantial impurities but SWIM still is not sure if the N,N- peak contained N-oxide or not. It is possible the N-oxide degrades in the column. SWIM also told me she left a small amount of pure N,N- sitting out at room temperature open to air for a month. The sample turned gooey and brown. When this was run on the GC/MS it showed a single peak for N,N-. Thus it may be that this method can not distinguish the N-oxides.


While the myth of jungle spice is complicated. There does seem to be some difference in effects as many people reports this, SWIM has also experienced it. While placebo is strong the shear number of people who claim this as well as SWIMs multiple experiences with it as well as those who had no previous knowledge of the JS phenomenon claiming it was different than pure N,N-. Never the less, Blind tests would be useful to clarify. Despite the GC results several possibilities remain that could explain the alter pharmacology of JS.

1) N,N-N-oxide is present: How soluble is this in hexane? It should be less so than N,N- but still may be soluable. TLC or IR should be able to distinguish these. SWIM had done TLC work years ago which showed that three peaks were present in JS (one with an Rf higher and one lower than N,N-). I will ask her to go back and check this out one day.

2) The Matrix has an effect on vaporization. Burnt proposed this theory and it makes some sense. The other things present such as fats, tannins etc present effect the vaporization of the N,N- resulting in greater availability. This is one of the reasons cigarette companies add additives to cigarettes. It is also possible but unlikely that some chemistry is going on when the mixture is vaporized/heated. This should be able to be detected via heating and running analysis on the residue. It should also be detected by the GC depending on the temps involved. Better still someone could use a sublimator.

3) The beta-carboline is a potentiator. However this compound would have to be phenomenally potent. At l even 2% say one would have to smoke 100 mg of JS to get 2 mg of the alkaloid. A 20 mg dose would have 400 uG. I doubt this compound even has strong MAOI properties or other activity based on related compounds. Anything that would vaporize in the mixture would be detected by the GC/MS so none of the "other" components could contribute directly to the pharmacology.


 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Rivea
#22 Posted : 8/25/2010 12:37:47 AM

No.. that can't be...

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What does the extract look like from Di-ethyl ether? I know maybe this is a lame question, but I have no analysis equipment other than eyes , nose, and brain!

I am considering options for extracting with additional solvents from basified bark that was previously extracted using pentane/hexane with 7 pulls. It is planned to get the remainder of the goods from this solution possibly using xylene or d-limonene and salting out using acetic acid or fumaric acid. Any ideas for maximal extraction from the previously extracted black juice?

Thanks to Burnt for all the analysis work! This is a great thread.
Everything mentioned herein has been deemed by our staff of expert psychiatrists to be the delusional rantings of a madman who has been treated with Thorazine who is hospitalized within the confines of our locked facility. This patient sometimes requires the application of 6 point leather restraints and electrodes at the temples to break his delusions. Therefore, take everything mentioned above with a grain of salt...
 
bufoman
#23 Posted : 8/25/2010 12:46:28 AM

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SWIM has told me she did extractions with diethylether and analyzed with TLC. There was still a significant portion of N,N- present. N,N- is very soluable in ether as are most other alkaloids. Hexane and pentane (naptha) may result in the extraction of a "cleaner product" however the other things extracted using non-selective solvents like ether, toluene, ethyl acetate and CH2Cl2 are probably oil based and other large molecules. I am not sure off the top of my head what types of large non-alkaloid components would be soluable in toluene but not Hexane. Any help? But anyway as was stated these may effect the vaporization of the N.N- altering the effects. But there do not seem to be any additional alkaloids present.

Remember the whole initial JS theory came from people first exhausting the solution with naptha and then extracting with Xylene or toluene to get the JS. But in truth they were not exhausting the solution of N,N-. Hexane and Naptha would require many pulls to fully exhaust the solution this why some N,N- is left over with some other things. There is very likely a solvent effect however these "other" factors are very unlikely to be alkaloids.

If one extracts with toluene or xylene and evaporates they allegedly get a slightly brownish-yellow oil. This can be extracted with bioling hexane many times which yields pure N,N- upon crystallization conditions. If one keeps doing this only a very small amount of JS remains prob less than 5%. People are likely not extracting the raw product enough times which is why many claim to have a large amount of JS. If one than analyses this small amount of brown oily residue that results after many hexane pulls, it still contains a large amount of N,N-.
 
Phlux-
#24 Posted : 9/2/2010 10:26:23 PM

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i take it thats the earwax spice from the jungle book - that oxidizes too (im not the only one to report oxidizing jungles)
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Rivea
#25 Posted : 12/15/2010 11:56:38 PM

No.. that can't be...

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Spiceman wrote:
Rivea wrote:
Spiceman wrote:
Extracts made with Di-ethyl ether yeild something very diffrent from your everyday run of the mill jungle spice. Perhaps it is this "5% mystery alkaloid" in relatively pure form. The major point is that this compound is NOT soluble in naptha ... this alkaloid or whatever is extremely psycho-active and is nothing like dmt. It is NOT soluble in naptha.... dmt is... so this is obviously not DMT.


Spiceman, what does the extract look like from Di-ethyl ether? I know maybe this is a lame question, but I have no analysis equipment other than eyes , nose, and brain!

I am considering options for extracting with additional solvents from basified bark that was previously extracted using pentane/hexane with 7 pulls. It is planned to get the remainder of the goods from this solution possibly using xylene or d-limonene and salting out using acetic acid or fumaric acid. Any ideas for maximal extraction from the previously extracted black juice?

Thanks to Burnt for all the analysis work! This is a great thread.




IT looks like this
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...dts/SpicemeisterPdt.jpg
... pulled by yours truly many, many years ago... when quantum tantra's tek was the mainstream... way back in the day.. peace and godspeed to ya..


Thanks for the reply. I missed it when you replied. Been too busy.
Everything mentioned herein has been deemed by our staff of expert psychiatrists to be the delusional rantings of a madman who has been treated with Thorazine who is hospitalized within the confines of our locked facility. This patient sometimes requires the application of 6 point leather restraints and electrodes at the temples to break his delusions. Therefore, take everything mentioned above with a grain of salt...
 
Shaolin
#26 Posted : 12/16/2010 9:31:24 PM

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burnt wrote:

SWIM has compared mimosa hostillis extracted with nothing but methanol (cold for a week in dark)


Do you maybe remember how much mimosa hostilis was used and what was the weight of the extract (I presume methanol was evaporated to get a residue)?

Also a question. How effective is methanol at extracting alkaloids ? Would it be safe to presume that it pulls "everything" (from plant oils to N,N-DMT to whatever else is in the bark) ?
Got GVG ? Mhm. Got DMT ?

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burnt
#27 Posted : 1/15/2011 11:09:49 AM

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Your being extremely unclear.
 
endlessness
#28 Posted : 1/15/2011 11:15:36 AM

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and it also makes no sense that its a specially different product if diethyl ether extract was analysed by bufoman's friend and there was nothing different, its not like the small amount of heptane mixed will add an extra unknown alkaloid. The only thing you're saying differently there is the oxidation process, but again, what appart from dmt oxide could be formed that would explain the difference? Would be hard arguing that some micrograms of an oxidized betacarboline which is only in trace amounts is so amazingly potent and makes the trip incredibly different. Anybody with more chemical knowledge can back this up?

Sounds to me much more likely to be self suggestion + the other explanations given by bufo and burnt regarding other possibilities that can explain different experiences. But I know you will fiercely say no, so would be better you where more clear aout what you are saying so burnt or bufoman's friends can test and get this settled
 
burnt
#29 Posted : 1/15/2011 11:29:29 AM

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SWIM tried ether once before too and it has similar selectivity as toluene.
 
downwardsfromzero
#30 Posted : 2/16/2011 12:56:33 PM

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I love how the chemistry of this relatively simple molecule is turning out to be as mysterious as the DMT experience itself!
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

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LandOfOz
#31 Posted : 2/23/2011 3:08:23 AM

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i spilled some ether in bio lab while cleaning up my dna electro graphing equipment.

wiped it up with my arm and took a loooong walk down the hall, slipped down 3 steps and kept on walking.

can anyone figure a quantity of betacarb/mg dmt on avg from the test samples? id like to know if its even enough to be active.
 
The little mouse
#32 Posted : 5/27/2011 5:33:12 AM
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Burnt, you rock! your work is very appreciated and very necessary.
 
AlbertKLloyd
#33 Posted : 6/13/2011 6:30:46 PM

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Quote:

ps. just checked ... bark is still in mexico, atleast tracking still says mexpost.... major bummer. SWIM isolated some of that sweet beta carboline from the last soup. A tiny fleck of it on top of some crystals in the stem, or a a smaller fleck for iv/im injections are uber potent.

I presume this indicates an assay of 2-Methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-b-carboline type material.

It is quite plausible that this material is active in many ways.

One wonders if like many other betacarbolines it is not selected for by the standard extractions and so occurs in trace amounts, perhaps it can be precipitated from a solution to target it?

This molecule is also known from Phalaris:
Quote:
The occurrence of 2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline and variation in alkaloids in Phalaris arundinaceastar,
2-Methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline was isolated from reed canarygrass (Phalaris arundinacea L.) and the occurrence of 2-methyl-6-methoxy-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline confirmed. Clones of reed canarygrass that contained N,N-dimethyltryptamine or 2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline did not contain their respective methoxy or hydroxy derivatives. Five of the 12 clones tested contained either or both of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine and 2-methyl-6-methoxy-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline. The data suggest that clones that contain gramine are not likely to contain N,N-dimethyltryptamine and/or β-carbolines. Thus, an inverse biosynthetic relationship between gramine and the tryptamine and β-carboline alkaloids seems to exist. However, further work is needed to firmly establish any such relationship between these alkaloids.


in several cases phalaris has been reported unusually potent when chewed or very fresh juice is ingested. Could it be that this molecule is the culprit behind both Jungle spice and fresh phalaris activity?




 
AlbertKLloyd
#34 Posted : 9/11/2011 5:16:44 PM

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bufoman wrote:
SWIM has also looked into the jungle spice phenomenon with GC/MS. Her results are inline with Burnt's. The major peak was N,N-. There was a much smaller peak (less than 1%) which gave a ion at 186 suggesting the TH-b-carboline N-methyl-pinoline or it could be the 2-methyl Burnt and Shulgin suggested but without a ref we won't know (ions: 186 (40%) ; 185 (20%); 144 (20%); 143 (100%);

i found this:
2-Methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (4), white
shiny needle crystals (MeOH) (50 mg), mp 213 ∞C,
UV λmax (MeOH) nm 290, 294. EIMS, m/z (rel.
int.): [M+] 186 (26), 171 (6), 144 (100), 143 (63),
115 (10), 94 (5), 77 (4), 42 (4).


note that 186, 144 and 143 are right, though 171 is missing...

As for the N-oxide of DMT being the darkening reaction, NMT also undergoes a similar reaction, but does not form oxides at all.

A lot of the Oxide data is cited to Fish et al 1955, in this work is there any mention of 2MeTHbC?
 
nen888
#35 Posted : 1/4/2012 4:58:17 AM
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..an experienced chemist told me: " In the case of NMT, oxidation and cyclization would give 1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline."
..
 
Volvox
#36 Posted : 6/10/2012 8:57:32 PM

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In my opinion, there is definitely a difference between 'jungle' (red wax) spice and normal spice. I don't think its self suggestion.
This is what I have found in my extractions and self experiments anyway-
I find my extractions generally fall into 3 main substances:

1) First there is pure DMT, the good white stuff. I apparently have a very high tolerance with DMT. It takes me 60mg-70mg to reach hyperspace (using a GVG and good methods), its very uncomfortable for me to ingest that much and when I do, I definitely go somewhere else commonly referd to as hyperspace. This kind of trip is very 'deep'.

2) Then there is the yellow or tan substance which is mostly, (from what I have read) is NMT. This is not very visual at all but gives quite an effect on the body, a calm feeling, it lasts longer but doesn't really take me anywhere or give me any visuals.

3) Then there is the Red spice, the waxy stuff that does not dissolve easily in solvent, unless its heated quite a bit. The Red spice, gives me massive visuals. It takes very little of it to do this to me, about 25mg is plenty to zing zoom me. But- I don't really go into hyperspace. Its more of a very heavy earthly trip with lots of visuals. The buzz definitely feels much different then pure white DMT. I actually like it much more because:
a- it takes just a little toke, not 3 massive hits and holding my breath to the point of exhaustion to get somewhere.
b- it is much more visual for me, and a very different 'trip' then hyperspace. Its not as deep.
c- I can remember it much better, and it is much less anxiety provoking. Though, when mixed with too much white DMT, it can defiantly turn into something very 'dark' if your not careful!

That's just my opinion anyway- the main point being -if it is 2MTHBC-, it has a very different effect on my then DMT. I don't think it is just letting more DMT get to me, it feels like a very different trip. Its not as deep but it is very visual.
 
endlessness
#37 Posted : 6/10/2012 9:40:58 PM

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Funny revival of this old thread Smile


Check the jungle link in my signature, some new tests have been done. That peak mentioned is indeed 2-MTHBC. The product extracted with naphtha or xylene or limonene all have 2MTHBC in similar (very small) quantities. There are a couple other b-carbolines that appear in also very small quantities with the more crude extractions but still at those quantities its unsure whether they can affect so much as some people say.

NMT might certianly be there in significant amounts with some acacias but with mimosa it seems in very small quantity, I dont think it's right to equate yellow with NMT. More likely a mix of dmt n-oxide, plant oils and/or simply trace solvent trapped with your dmt preventing it from crystallizing (plus the traces of nmt and beta carbolines).

Thanks for sharing your self experiments, but without control groups or blind testing or very careful measuring and consumption, it's very hard to say anything about it. For example you say with red it "just takes a little toke", but that it doesnt get you deep.. But if you aren't smoking the same amounts, in the same speed, with the exact same method, you are hardly really comparing two different substances, you're introducing a whole bunch of other variables there. Also there can be other factors such as the oils protecting the vaporization of DMT and therefore affecting amounts vaporized and rate of absorption, not to mention the self suggestion, natural variance of trips, and so on. I think the fact that people constantly perpetuate the idea that "jungle" is "dark" , or even the name "jungle" itself, plus it's darker color, already affects people's expectations towards it.

Again, not saying your experience isn't true, maybe your hypothesis is right, partly right, or completely wrong. I think we should for the moment not be too certain of conclusions.

Would you be willing to do blind testing with your different batches? What's your method of smoking? You mention the GVG, do you use a metal scrubber or bed of herbs to prevent the DMT from melting?

PS: I wish burnt and bufoman would come back so we could discuss all the new results....
 
Volvox
#38 Posted : 6/11/2012 2:06:21 AM

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"Would you be willing to do blind testing with your different batches?"

Well, I might be up for that actually, as of the last few months, I've been taking a rather more scientific look at my trips due to diet reasons. Something in my daily routine was inhibiting my ability to enter hyperspace and so I invested in a good scale and accurate measuring tools and started doing some routines where set and setting was the same so I could more accurately judge the effects. (same place, time of day, lighting conditions, same song (Pink Floyd, crazy diamond part 2, etc.) and took note of my diet and different items I may have consumed and got some good answers from that.


My method of intake has been to measure out a specific amount exactly, the same each time, using a GVG with a copper chore boy screen and a dependable torch lighter. I load in the center, let the lighter hover above to melt, then get a white cloud, then back the flame off even further keeping it hot enough to vaper but not burn. Try to consume all in one hit if my lungs are up for it.

So I could be up for another controlled test and it would be interesting to see if I could really tell the difference, though I couldn't do it quite so formally.

I could do a single blind test though. I could get my significant other to load my GVG for me in the other room, with either 30mg's white or 30mg's jungle.

Here is the spices I would be working with. Both came from the same batch of A/B extraction from MHRB.
Container on the right has been re-ex'ed once and I'm sure contains slight impurities but is mainly clean DMT.
Container on the left is the same re-ex'ed DMT mixed at a 1 to 1 ratio with red-waxy jungle residue, heated and dissolved into Bestine and the temp. raised slowly until the bottom red oily residue became solvent in the Bestine. This took a temp. much higher then normal re-crystallization when such stuff tends to drop out.


I have 1.5 and .6 grams of each respectively which would get me though testing so this could be done. I'd have to explain to my better half the whole experiment, and to not have any particular expression or to not give me any hints when handing me the GVG, but it would be interesting to see.

The whole reason I was looking back at these threads actually is my attempt to be able to fully enjoy a nice experience. And I have found white DMT to be much harder to experience hyper space then I would have liked. (I personally need to vape what I consider to be too much.)

Then I accidently got a little jungle mixed with my white and I found the experience quite more powerful. (I wont say profound, as pure dmt seems more profound if I can get there.)

And then I started separating what I could, and I tried mixing the yellow/tan with the white but it did't really do what I had accidently found. And then I mixed the red with the white and... wow... but it feels like a different experience, or so I subjectively think, -so it would be interesting to do a blind test- As I could very well be wrong.


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