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Sublingual DMT tincture: Story and Recipe. (NO BURN, NO NAUSEA) Options
 
q21q21
#1 Posted : 2/22/2010 9:44:10 PM

SWIM


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For those of you unfamiliar with "sublingual administration"

Sublingual, literally 'under the tongue', from Latin, refers to the pharmacological route of administration by which drugs diffuse into the blood through tissues under the tongue....---...When a chemical comes in contact with the mucous membrane beneath the tongue, or buccal mucosa, it diffuses through it

Note:
sublingual administration doesn't taste gross.
Are their taste buds on the bottom of your tongue? No.
You don't taste it at all if you do it right.


SWIM has been testing out sublingual spice for a while and has had lots of trials and lots of failures.
But he finally got it right!


NOTE: SWIM's tolerance for DMT is much higher than many.
SWIM can have 50mg freebase with an MAOI and only feel the MAOI. For other people 50mg can render them unable to move and send them close to hyperspace.
SWIM has found that oral tolerance for DMT is very close to sublingual, so use that as a guide. If in doubt START LOW!


Trial 1:
He first tried 75mg of white freebase.
Result: PAIN PAIN PAIN, and no effects

Trial 2:
40mg white freebase 45 minutes after 2g oral syrian rue brew (SRB for short)... nothing but harmala.
So then he took an additional 80mg (stupid...) and after nothing happened sublingual he swallowed it.
20 minutes after swallowing: Huge OEVs, strong CEVs, though less than he expected and very overwhelming NAUSEA and DISCOMFORT.
The whole thing lasted ~1.5 hours and stopped pretty quick actually.

SWIM swore he would try to find a way around the nausea, it was terrible.
At this point he wasn't sure whether it was the sublingual spice or the oral or both that gave the experience, all he knew is the oral gave the nausea.


Trial 3:
2g SRB followed 45 minutes later by 70mg of dandelion flower colored spice partially dissolved in canola oil, clearly with a contamination of N-N-DMT-oxide.
The mix burned quite a bit, though less than dry spice. SWIM spat the mix out after 15 minutes to make sure oral route was not used.
20 minutes later he had a strong but comfortable experience with moderate CEVs, slight OEVs and nice tracers and NO NAUSEA
It lasted 1.5-2 hours with a long pleasant afterglow
SWIM was ecstatic with this one, though he felt he could make it better. Less burn

Trial 4:
2g SRB oral followed 45 minute later by 80mg white freebase dissolved in 3ml vinegar.
The mix burn a bit but less than 1/2 of the freebase. Mix spat out @ 15 min.
Definately some reaction, but no visuals, no tracers, just a little beyond just harmalas.

SWIM figured that acetates just didn't work so he planned a nice strong 80mg of white freebase, figuring the oxides weighed more he was excited about this as a strong trip. SWIM had been testing other psychedelics dissolved in oil via sublingual route and figured he'd fully dissolve the spice because that never effected the potency of the others.

Trial 5:
2g SRB oral followed 45 minutes later by the oil w/ 80mg white freebase.
Mix spat out after 20 minutes to be sure.
HMMMMM.... SWIM though, it was not even close to the 70mg of the yellow freebase.... more like the acetates....

SWIM used some logic, he had in fact forgotten that he used the yellow freebase for the effective one. So he thought it through... If white freebase = same effect as white acetates.... then it should be the same for yellow oxides... maybe even full alkaloid acetates would work!

SWIM then pull some bark with d-limonene and salted out the acetates with warm vinegar. The vinegar was evaporated to leave a beautiful lemony-flowery smelling goo, which was full alkaloids, white, yellow and jungle acetates. This was dissolved 20mg/ml of H20 (water)

Lets call them Full Alkaloid Acetates or FAA for short

SWIM heard that sublingual harmalas are much more potent, so he felt if he was going to go full alkaloid he might try "going for broke" with sublingal harmalas too.


Trial 6:
.5g SRB held under tongue for 15 minutes, then 80-90mg worth of the FAA 5 minutes after.
It "burned" for about 5-10 seconds, but no more than mild mouthwash. The mix was spat out after 15 minutes.
Mild mild CEVs and significant headspace change. Though not as strong as the 70mg freebase, FAR FAR stronger than the white freebase or acetates.
The effects were clear for an hour and trailed off into a nice afterglow. No nausea the whole time

SWIM figured that the vinegar took some gunk from the limonene and also the acetates are quite heavy.
He has pulled 1.5% of them from some bark and he thinks there is still a bunch still in it.

SWIM was pretty happy with this, though he thought that one thing could make it better, a single step, single tincture...


Trial 7
110-120mg of FAA were mixed with 75mg freebase harmalas extracted from syrian rue
Also just enough citric acid (ran out of vinegar) to dissolve the harmalas. All put under tongue at once.
The mix did not burn one bit, none, nada, zip. SWIM was thrilled.
Within 15 minutes SWIM was getting mild OEVs and tracers.
Definately stronger than trial 6. The at-once tincture worked!
The peak lasted about 1.5 hours but SWIM is still feeling it a bit after 4 hours.
Of course no nausea or discomfort.


Seems that the full alkaloid acetates are approximately 1/2 as effective as yellow freebase spice.
that would be expected since acetates are heavy and limonene picks up a lot more than just the DMT alkaloids.

SWIM's next test will be orally the exact same amount of harmalas and FAA, just to compare.
SWIM hopes that sublingual administration will allow absorption of a full dose of pharma. (sans the nausea)

SWIM will also soon try curcumin (turmeric extract) with the tincture as the maoi and possibly try some other combos.

Anyway for those of your who aren't sure how to make full alkaloid acetates, here is a vague description

Cheers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Recipe:
-Freebase alkaloid in MHRB via A/B or STB. Lime, Lye or whatever you'd like.

-Pull with Limonene (or xylene) it will take several pulls of ~1ml/g of MHRB

-Mix limonene with 25ml vinegar, warm mix in hot water bath, shake well for 5 minute (emulsions settle in 5 sec)

-Seperate vinegar and put in a pan or something to evaporate.

-Repeat the 2 previous steps for a total of 2-3 vinegar pulls.

-Evaporate vinegar either at room temp or over a pot of boiling water or food dehyrator (probably best).

-scrape up and measure goo. Dissolve 30-20mg per ml of water, make sure to record concentraton
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mix 75 mg of harmalas with 1/4 vinegar and water to dissolve
or .5g worth of reduced syrian rue brew (do a batch of >10g and seperate into 20 for easier reducing without risk of burning.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Combine the harmalas and full alkaloid acetate tincture in a shot glass/oral syringe/large dropper.

Rinse with mouthwash first, spit out, then place mix under tongue, use finger to mix around a couple times over 15-20 minute

Fly high!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
69ron
#2 Posted : 2/22/2010 10:54:43 PM

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Q21q21, this makes a lot of sense scientifically. Acetates absorb better than nearly all other salts and easily freebase in the body, meaning they come on faster. Acetates are not stable, so the DMT can freebase faster and enter the brain faster, than if say DMT HCl was used instead. Acetates also absorb well sublingually, better than a lot of other salts.

I think you’ve come up with a very good combination. If you make an acetate based tincture with DMT acetate and harmaline acetate, you could probably get pretty decent effects sublingually. They would be stable in solution. Acetates are stable in a dilute solution of acetic acid, but tend to come apart when dried. So as long as it’s stored as a solution of acetic acid, the tincture should last a long time.

This is a great idea.

Has anyone else tried this?
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
Madcap
#3 Posted : 2/23/2010 3:21:00 AM

illudium Q-36


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Well now this is exciting. I really loved sublingual dmt via resin... but it really only worked with one batch of resin. I gave up...until now. i will give this a shot when I have the time to ride the ride.

I have THH in tincture already...so now to convert some jimjam to acetate.

PEACHES
All posts written by Madcap should be regarded as fiction.
 
amor_fati
#4 Posted : 2/23/2010 3:35:13 AM

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What SWIM's interested in is finding the minimum volume and concentration of vinegar to make a tincture of a measured amount of freebase, calculate the amount per drop, and add dropwise alongside a harmaloid tincture. This would allow for more open-ended experimentation. So if one knew the solubility of DMT acetate, had a dropper of a particular volume, added a certain amount of vinegar in slight excess to achieve total acetate conversion, and diluted to full volume with water. SWIM doesn't like the prospect of weighing acetate or having to convert to acetate and evaping, and it should be simple enough to come up with the numbers needed for this.
 
q21q21
#5 Posted : 2/23/2010 3:35:41 AM

SWIM


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Madcapv2 wrote:
Well now this is exciting. I really loved sublingual dmt via resin... but it really only worked with one batch of resin. I gave up...until now. i will give this a shot when I have the time to ride the ride.

I have THH in tincture already...so now to convert some jimjam to acetate.

PEACHES


You seem to know your stuff.

Just a simple warning:
if you have jimjam in fumarate it might be much purer than the acetates straight from limonene, so don't listen to statement that it is 1/2 potency of freebase.
Don't go TOO far, unless you want to Razz
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
q21q21
#6 Posted : 2/23/2010 4:44:56 AM

SWIM


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amor_fati wrote:
What SWIM's interested in is finding the minimum volume and concentration of vinegar to make a tincture of a measured amount of freebase, calculate the amount per drop, and add dropwise alongside a harmaloid tincture. This would allow for more open-ended experimentation. So if one knew the solubility of DMT acetate, had a dropper of a particular volume, added a certain amount of vinegar in slight excess to achieve total acetate conversion, and diluted to full volume with water. SWIM doesn't like the prospect of weighing acetate or having to convert to acetate and evaping, and it should be simple enough to come up with the numbers needed for this.


acetates are VERY soluble in water. SWIM took 680mg and dissolved it in 6-7ml of boiling water. So ~100mg/ml though the goo did collect dust so there were some little particles, SWIM didn't worry too much about that though, upon cooling none dropped out visibly

Clearly the hotter the water, the higher the solubility, it took ~25ml of hot tap water for only 480ml.

Note that these are full spec, white N-N or yellow N-Oxides may be more soluble.

Hmmm, kinda went on a tangent without reading the post properly, SWIM'll leave the info anyway.

2 pulls of 20-30ml of hot vinegar pulled 480mg the first time and 3 pulls (re-using limonene, but overnight instead of a few hours) pulled 680mg

SWIM combined and evaporated so he wasn't sure which pulled what. It is hard to tell via color since the vinegar barely turns yellow and the limonene keeps a lot of gunk even when salted with 33% HCl

SWIM does however have ~9g of fumuric acid lying around but his one attempt at FASA failed, it was dirty and smelly anyway so he didn't mind.
he likes the fact that there is no (or very little) excess acetate after evaporation.

Possibly could be an option, he doesn't really mind evaporating an weighing too much, it is just scrape, weigh, dissolve and the 1 tincture he has would last 3-5 full experiences and with some finicking could fit 20+ doses, though full concentration acetate could burn a tad, he'll have to test that.

(yep that's a lot of rambling, SWIM is in the middle of a workout and is just delaying Razz)
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
amor_fati
#7 Posted : 2/23/2010 5:23:42 AM

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Well, more specifically, if SWIM had a 7.4ml dropper bottle, he would want to know how much DMT acetate could be completely dissolved in that amount of water. Knowing that amount, SWIM would then calculate the amount of freebase in that amount of acetate and simply put that amount of dry freebase directly in the dropper bottle, add an aprx. equimolar amount of vinegar (with a known concentration of acetic acid), then the mixture would be diluted with water to the full amount and shaken to ensure total dissolution. The amount of alkaloid contained in each drop could then be measured, and the tincture could be administered dropwise with the number of drops determining the approximate dosage.

So SWIM would need to know the molar ratio of ascetic acid to DMT in DMT acetate and the solubility of the acetate in water, and preparing a tincture would be a simple matter.

As a side note, the best way SWIM's found to use tinctures is to immediately rub the the bottom of the tongue against the soft palate and to swallow any saliva before it has a chance to dilute the tincture. This prevents any possibility of burning due to the acid and prevents any of the tincture from washing down to the stomach before being absorbed.
 
q21q21
#8 Posted : 2/23/2010 5:41:16 AM

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q21q21 wrote:

Trial 4:
2g SRB oral followed 45 minute later by 80mg white freebase dissolved in 3ml vinegar.
The mix burn a bit but less than 1/2 of the freebase. Mix spat out @ 15 min.
Definately some reaction, but no visuals, no tracers, just a little beyond just harmalas.

SWIM figured that acetates just didn't work so he planned a nice strong 80mg of white freebase, figuring the oxides weighed more he was excited about this as a strong trip. SWIM had been testing other psychedelics dissolved in oil via sublingual route and figured he'd fully dissolve the spice because that never effected the potency of the others.

Trial 5:
2g SRB oral followed 45 minutes later by the oil w/ 80mg white freebase.
Mix spat out after 20 minutes to be sure.
HMMMMM.... SWIM though, it was not even close to the 70mg of the yellow freebase.... more like the acetates....


Good idea, though as stated above, the mix MUST be N-oxides (or at least largely contaminiated with them) or Full spectrum alkaloids, or else it will not work.

SWIM you of this assures this. The 80mg of white freebase and acetates both gave what SWIM would approximate as 25-30mg of the yellow freebase or 50-60 of the full spec acetates. both were much much weaker than the 80-90mg of the full spec acetates.
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
amor_fati
#9 Posted : 2/23/2010 2:22:32 PM

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q21q21 wrote:
Good idea, though as stated above, the mix MUST be N-oxides (or at least largely contaminiated with them) or Full spectrum alkaloids, or else it will not work.


Well SWIM didn't specify, but full-range is actually all he has and doesn't plan on purifying it. SWIM would imagine that the molar ratio in the full-range between actives and acetic acid wouldn't be too far off from that of pure DMT, but vinegar should probably be used in slight excess anyway. The solubility of the salt probably isn't too different either.
 
q21q21
#10 Posted : 2/23/2010 3:18:47 PM

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well looks like SWIY has some tests, amor_fati Razz. It would be much easier for SWIY than SWIM.

Also note that not only is fumurate + maoi said to work sublingually.
but SWIM's experience says that partially dissolved spice would not effect the potency too much, just make it slightly harder to deal with.
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
amor_fati
#11 Posted : 2/23/2010 4:49:11 PM

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As a quick idea for determining the molar ratio, simply dissolve a known amount of freebase in vinegar in a container of a known weight, evap, reweigh and determine the difference. Multiple trials would help reduce the margin of error. To determine the solubility, add water dropwise to each of these and stir well until the acetate dissolves completely or the viscosity becomes reasonably thin enough for a dropper to handle properly. Plot all of the data from each trial and find the average for each data set. From this, one could determine the ratio of freebase/vinegar/water to be used in any volume of dropper bottle. For SWIM, it'll just be a matter of finder the right sort of containers to weigh and evap in.
 
freethinker
#12 Posted : 2/24/2010 7:34:36 PM
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Curious for reports, or thoughts on sublingual administration of harmalas + spice at the same time vs. spaced. I know the popular vote has leaned back to the same time for pharma. Wondering if the same applies to sublingual?

69ron wrote:
If you make an acetate based tincture with DMT acetate and harmaline acetate, you could probably get pretty decent effects sublingually...
Has anyone else tried this?

Have done this with spice, + a 60:25:15 ratio of thh:harmine:harmaline, but orally. Contents were mixed in vinegar, evapped partially to a goo, then put in separate gel caps. Taken weeks later (about a 1/2 hour apart), it was very powerful (took very very long to come on though, blame the gel caps, they are needless). I agree this could make a great sublingual tincture. Will try soon.

**EDIT:
And thanks q21q21 for documenting your research. Very helpful stuff. Smile

All posts by this author are blatant plagiarisms, fictitious inventions, and outright lies.
 
amor_fati
#13 Posted : 2/25/2010 5:28:58 PM

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SWIM decided to go with a much less technical approach than he previously proposed. While working on recycling spice cleaned from smoking implements and whatnot, he yielded a very nice-smelling but dark and somewhat gooey product that he couldn't properly solidify. Anyway, this is from the thread regarding that process.

amor_fati wrote:
SWIM let his gooey brown freebase sit for a time, and it did take on a more slightly more solid form. SWIM weighed it out to be about 430mg (SWIM's been doing a lot of trial and error experimentation). But rather than proceed with the experiment as planned, SWIM decided that this product and the amount combined with his little bit of leftover freebase would be perfect for making a tincture. He dropped all the freebase material into a 7.4mL dropper bottle, filled it with vinegar, capped it, put it in a hot water bath for a bit, and periodically shook it vigorously.

I figure there's about 30 drops per mL and about 75mg/mL in the tincture, so a drop would be aprx. 2.5mg of actives. So 10-20 drops should be fairly active under the tongue with a sublingual harmaloid to potentiate it, and probably about 30-40 drops orally.


Hopefully the slightly greater ratio of jungle alkaloids will help potentiate the sublingual activity and this turns out as well as SWIM's hoping. He'll test it sublingually first, and if that doesn't seem work out, he'll switch to oral to try and confirm whether the sublingual administration is the root of the problem or whether it's just the tincture itself.
 
amor_fati
#14 Posted : 2/28/2010 12:08:24 PM

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Oh wow.... 20drops harmaline, 5drops THH, 20drops recycled jurema-acetate, all sublingually...absolutely one of the most powerful pharma experiences of SWIM's life...
 
q21q21
#15 Posted : 2/28/2010 4:53:48 PM

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Aha! He shoots he scores! Gotta love posts that start with Oh wow... SWIM's journal entries often do that
10:42 Seems to be coming on

1:04 OH WOW!.... *blah blah*

So 20 drops is 50mg? SWIM read in SWIY's pharma dose thread 70mg was your most powerful experience (if he read it right).
Seems that sublingual takes some technique and reduction of liquid seems to help.

SWIM was under the impression his tincture was 50-75% pure until he tested it orally. It's very pure. That's for sure. (of course 132% the weight of freebase)
SWIM would really appreciate a play-by-play of the sublingual technique. He has read it twice but it seems SWIY has honed it well.

Spread drops in different places under the tongue while making sure to swallow all the excess saliva before hand? Is that all?

Happy for SWIY bud!
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
narmz
#16 Posted : 2/28/2010 6:35:26 PM

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So why do harmalas need to be used if the dmt is actually being absorbed into the bloodstream? I may not fully understand what bodily mechanisms come into play here, but has anyone tried this without harmalas? SWIM is mainly interested in experiencing DMT without the influence of harmalas, just out of curiousity, and to remove some of the cloudiness that comes with the harmalas.
Everything I post is made up fiction. SWIM represents a character who is not based in or on reality.
 
q21q21
#17 Posted : 2/28/2010 7:55:43 PM

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narmz wrote:
So why do harmalas need to be used if the dmt is actually being absorbed into the bloodstream? I may not fully understand what bodily mechanisms come into play here, but has anyone tried this without harmalas? SWIM is mainly interested in experiencing DMT without the influence of harmalas, just out of curiousity, and to remove some of the cloudiness that comes with the harmalas.


SWIM's not too sure, though SWIM had through that in the past he has learned to enjoy harmalas

That being said. SWIM has been planning a no-harmala test for a while, though he is still needs some time to recover from his epic oral-pharma breakthrough.
Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
amor_fati
#18 Posted : 2/28/2010 10:07:19 PM

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SWIM placed about 550mg of presumably full-range jurema freebase placed directly in a 7.4mL dropper bottle, then dissolved to the mark with distilled white vinegar and placed in a hot water bath prior to being shaken vigorously. The harmaloid tinctures in use were aprx. 3.5mg/drop.

10 drops of harmaline were administered sublingually by dropping in sporadic locations under the tongue and immediately rubbing it in with the bottom of the tongue while swallowing any saliva buildup before it has a chance to commingle with and dilute the tincture. 10 more drops were administered in the same manner followed by 5 drops of THH. All of these doses were administered in fairly rapid succession, mere minutes apart, to include the following spice tincture, with 10 drops administered in the same manner.

The come up was a bit slow, but it was definitely coming on. SWIM didn't want to miss the mark and waste any harmaloids, so he administered 10 more drops of the spice tincture within 5-15min following the prior 10.... SWIM didn't know what hit him within the next 5min or so, it came on so strong. This experience was a sort of hybrid between the normal smoked and swallowed effects--almost a completely new experience on its own. SWIM knows for certain that the sublingual absorption was the route in play, because 85mg harmaloids and 50mg spice would not have been orally active for SWIM. Whether much, if any, made it into the stomach would be unlikely, regardless, as the concentration was such that it would likely absorb prior to to reaching the stomach by any accidental ingestion.

SWIM will need to experiment more, but he plans on trying it with 20-30drops THH, then with harmine, etc. SWIM isn't holding out for this working without harmaloids, simply due to the length of time required for the effects to set in. For SWIM, this is now the ideal way to administer pharma, as he would venture to guess that it will work as well every time at the right dosage and with the benefit of having no discomfort to the stomach.
 
freethinker
#19 Posted : 3/1/2010 10:36:33 PM
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Just for reference, a while back some tests were done on this end to find the lower inhibiting threshold for oral THH with spice. 75mg THH did not 'activate' (for lack of better word) 20mg of spice. 100mg of THH did 'activate' 20mg of spice (resulting in a very mild and enjoyable ~45 minute threshold tryptamine high). These thresholds obviously vary between everyone, just throwing it out there to second your opinion that your sublingual administration wasn't tainted by possible oral activity.

Again, thanks for the updates guys. Very interesting work here. Will definitely be exploring this further.

All posts by this author are blatant plagiarisms, fictitious inventions, and outright lies.
 
mumbles
#20 Posted : 3/2/2010 9:47:04 AM

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Swim loves the idea of sublingual spice and harmalas and thinks a mid->low dose would be perfect (after some dose tweaking and tests) for a 3D movie type scenario. So once his seed arrives he will be giving dmt n-oxide tinctures and windowpanes a go =p does anyone know why the yellow n-oxide is more active sublingually?
 
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