This is an acacia no doubt on the radar of many psychonauts since becoming interested in DMT. Its a fast growing, frost tolerant, foliage (and floral) abundant species which can contain good levels of tryptamines in its phyllodes.. making it an especially good candidate for people wishing to grow their own tryptamine source.. But many people have disappointing results with this species and unfortunately for many it is considered a fruitless pursuit.. meanwhile others report very good results. What’s going on? So far what we CAN for sure say that this species has a long history of cultivation, is incredibly variable in taxonomy both in the wild and in cultivation and lastly - variable in content of tryptamines.

Now that people abroad are growing the White Sally for this purpose, I think its a good idea to narrow down potentially contributing factors to this variance. I think that like Acacia Maidenii, we are probably looking at an issue of strain/genetics. There appear to many forms of this species .. some appear fruitful while others do not. Anecdotally there are some traits associated with active strains and the same for inactive strains. But there is sometimes crossover - making this species the perfect symbol of that old saying about DMT - it brings more questions than answers

But there are varieties that are known to yield. I would encourage any members here to collect seed from these varieties and to share it with members here and elsewhere. This way when testing plants in cultivation, certain variables can be eliminated or better understood. As an example.. a negative result from a young plant could very well be due to age.. but it might be a variety that isn’t active to begin with. So there’s no standard for comparison.

I think it is safe to say that most people don’t know the origins of the seed they are buying, and most probably buy off the first vendors yielded from a google search. It would be good to be certain from the beginning that the seed is from a confirmed active variety. This way the various results can be better understood. I think in some ways this species shares similarities to the Maidenii story.. a lot of hype, lots of negative results - some swear by it (myself included .. but with the right strain)- but the origins of its early reputation completely valid.

Its probably about time that this species was separated into various sub species.. It is present down much of the lower east coast Australia and into victorian hinterland. Area to area we see varying taxonomy. Sometimes drastically so .. to the point that it feels a little wrong to lump it all together.

In this thread I'd like to document the variability and its connection to alkaloids .. But I would love the help of others. I’ve seen so many positive and negative reports here at the nexus. It would be awesome if some of those people could jump in and tell us a little more iff possible.I really love this species ... it is immensely sentimental in my world and was the acacia that rendered me acacia obsessed. It has a gorgeous weeping habit.. emanating gentle energy to the observer. It truly is one of Australia’s ancient willows... And I'm happy to have experienced it's graceful tryptamine power.. I hope this information can allow others into its graceful bosom.

So this is my attempt at separating what I consider to be at least 3 different areas of variation which probably can be split into at least 3 or 4 different types .. there is some overlapping of course. (hybridisation could be at work here too)

Phyllode variation which I’ve separated into 3 main types:

1. stiff, glabrous and slightly leathery - usually observed in small bushy prostrate form. Often found in harsher/drier environments.
2. soft/papery texture with appressed hairs present (also on the stems) - present on the more weeping varieties.
3. soft/papery texture but glabrous - meaning little to no appressed hairs present - usually the more prostrate form

Phyllodes range from broad to narrow .. 2mm - 18mm .. the success stories in terms of phyllode qualities seem to be on the broader spectrum

Trunk Bark variation: 3 types I've seen...

1. smooth, almost shiny silver/grey bark - most common with the commercially planted variety - (coincides with phyllode no.3) I haven’t found these to be active

2. grey bark.. smooth to the eye but with a rougher sand papery texture. No "shin” present - (coincides with phyllode no.1)

3. light brown/grey bark with very long lenticels present.. smooth but less shiny than the first.. Until a certain age has only been observed growing as a single upward growing trunk in a more ‘tree” like fashion - once the trunk gets thick enough, it will often lie along the ground.. with many branches the size of whole trees. I associate it with the active varieties (exclusively correlates with no.2 and 3 type phyllodes)

Flowers:
3-8cm in length.. can range from very loose and long to shorter and “tight”
Colour: White through to pale yellow.

Growth Habits:

1. 1 main trunk sometimes splitting off into 2 or 3 large branches, weeping foliage with phyllodes alternating down the stem. Loosely packed white/pale inflorescences which can get quite long. Less commonly cultivated but is often grown in more wild areas. I saw this east and west of Melbourne and was reliable. These varieties didn’t seem too seasonally variable. Even after heavy rain had good amounts of alkaloids.

2. Erect growth habit with foliage occurring abruptly at the tops in bursts, rather than alternating down the stem. Similar habit to many desert species. More common in drier areas where it has been planted and am unsure whether it grows like this as a response to the environment or because that is in its genetics. I suspect in areas where it gets very cold foliage at the top of the tree would get more light. Commonly grown in the Northern tablelands NSW. Tight/short flower rods pale yellow.

3. Weeping growth habit but foliage occurring mostly in bursts at the ends of branches instead of alternating all the way down the weeping stem. Commonly seen in built up urban areas .. I never got good results with this form.

Photos of the different forms to come.. but the below are confirmed tryptamine varieties. Photos 3 and 4 are the same tree.. Council planted

[Edit.. I will continue adding photos of confirmed DMT containing varieties.. if anyone has photos they would like to share let me know and I will attach them to this post.. try to get photos that clearly show the tree's taxanomic qualities] the objective of this thread is to help make the seed of tryptamine containing varieties more easily attainable.

Floribunda researchers.. what were your findings?

Look forward to contributing!

I think as nexians transition to growing their own plants, success stories have to be as detailed as possible so other users can replicate successes and not be discouraged. Don't discount a subspecies based on a single strain!

Floribundas are a very fast growing variety. Simply soak seeds in boiling water for 24-48h and plant ~5mm in a river sand/perlite/coir blend (I added native potting mix with success). If you do it right in a good climate, your trees will be over six feet tall at a year old. Sustainable and convenient.

Document and share findings!

An active broad phyllode weeping variety..

growth habit much more tree like. Pendulous foliage. Phyllodes soft and papery with appressed hairs. No basal gland and sometimes up to around 1.5cm in width

Flowers occur only in bursts at the end of branches... much less 'floribundant' than most commonly planted varieties. Pale flowers which this lot of photos didn't capture as well as the first photo in the OP. Loosely packed and around 6cm in length

Smooth brown/grey trunk bark with lenticels observed.

Fairly straight seed pods with oblong shaped seed.. much larger seed than the others in the area which were maybe half the size. Germinates very readily.. very desireable form to grow both for its gentle energy and its good tryptamine levels

Agreed.. I think it would be great if others could share pictures or descriptions of the varieties they worked with. Both positive and negative findings..

Does one extract from the bark, the leaves, the flowers, the seeds? Is there any info on the % of tryptamines?

[annotation added]

I experienced no noticeable effects from one specimen I don't have good pictures of at the moment, but will post one when I get a chance.

It was a couple of years old and very fast growing indeed. Seed sourced from an Australian ebay seller.

Edit: I think it's a prostrate variety, because it sends shoots from the base, which I cut off to make it look like a tree.

From the active varieties the phyllodes are pretty reliable. between 0.3-0.4% the latter on a good day.. some have reported higher.. The usual applies with stem and twig having the same percentage as bark. Thoughtful pruning will increase foliage too.

Moving forward with this species I think seed should be sourced thoughtfully. I know of two vendors that sell seed within the 'ethno' context which are a good start. I won't name them until I have clarification on naming vendors..

Anybody reading this who knows of active trees they can collect seeds from should collect and share that seed. Unfortunately for people buying internationally there is no way of really knowing what genetic variety it came from, and to make it more frustrating there are no sub species recognised within the floribunda umbrella so this will never be clarified by vendors.. maybe some of us who have worked with the desireable varieties can help share some of the seed

EDIT .. I contacted one vendor to get confirmation on variety and they weren't able to confirm which provenance it came from nor that it was tested for alkaloids

An observation i've found: A nickname for floribunda is "White Sally", i'm wondering where this nickname originated from? I don't have any books to confirm, but maybe it was from more white flowers than the typical yellow on acacias?

Regarding another subspecies, after some research, i'm wondering why this Certain species looks very similar physically and has a curiously similar alkaloid profile, yet is diagonal geographically to the reference species? Are there more examples of this? Could we actually break down acacias using far more environmental data points and be able to group based on growing environment to explain trait expression? (I need to learn more about polyploidy)

Is this potentially similar with floribunda/longifolia? I see distinctively silver/grey trunks in every coastal sophorae, which is a subspecies of longifolia I believe? My floribundas have very different trunks with lenticels, these sophorae do not. Are people misidentifying inactive coastal longifolias as floribunda? I would be so interested in seeing genetic lineage of species.


What I have found with an unhappy floribunda (All my floribundas are from the same seed batch) which grew in "tougher" conditions (Watered less frequently) only has phyllodes on the end of branches. Vastly different to the more consistently cared for ones which have phyllodes across every branch with the same consistency.


I definitely look forward to seeing which colour my floribundas flower this year, and sharing some photos


TLDR: Plant genetics (Polyploidy) confusing amateurs and causing incorrect identifications?

Great post! I first learnt to identify floribunda by buying one at a nursery. Once I was familiar with some of its physical characteristics I could identify them quite easily. However, I soon discovered that there were floribundas that appeared quite different. My findings correlate with Acacian's findings.

Type 1 - I refer to this as the 'Typical' floribunda (which is the one I purchased from the nursery). Phyllodes are narrower and densely populated. Flowers are often shorter in length. Type 1 looks more like a bushy shrub than a classic tree. The trunk bark looks like a smooth brown skin opposed to actual bark.

Type 2 - Phyllodes are longer and are spaced much further apart. They are broader and less uniform with a papery texture (less rigid). Flower stalks are significantly longer than Type 1. Could be a tree or a shrub.

With regard to anastomisation, floribunda phyllodes typically exhibit lots of very fine parallel longitudinal veins (with little anastomisation - if any). I have found what I think is a Type 3 floribunda which has lots of anastomisation present with appressed hairs. Flowers are grouped in 2s, 3s & 4s.

Thanks for the pictures CheeseCat, interesting to see the differences. Have you tested any of these for alkaloids?

I noticed driving down the highway (NSW) there are a lot of wattles in bloom already, I haven't ever stopped to inspect and identify these ones along the highways, but they are definitely varieties with the very yellow flowers as opposed to the cream coloured ones Acacian has shown. I assume they are floribundas or longifolia variants...? My floribundas have not flowered yet (Maybe they are too young at less than 2 years old).

Hey Wattlez, I've tested Type 1 several times and had success only once with the branch bark, quite low yielding around 0.1% (it wasn't in bloom so might try again when it's flowering) - very unique experience with Syrian rue. I've tried Type 2 once with no luck and I'm still yet to try Type 3 (hoping that Type 3 may offer good yield due to the anastomisation). I've found a couple of BIG trees that I think are floribundas similar to what Acacian has mentioned but they are tricky to access. The most common floribundas (in my area) are Type 2. It'd be good if floribundas were a bit more reliable for yield. I spot all my acacias whilst driving. Once you get an eye for them they are everywhere! My 4yr old floribunda is close to flowering so will investigate that soon.

..i'd like to see what research nexians bring in on this..especially sourcing seed
Important to note for growing from seed - may take 3 years to reach full spectrum

i'm of the opinion that the original type characteristics of A floribunda (i.e. pale cream flowers) should be taken to indicate floribunda proper, and that any specimens with yellow flowers should either be treated as a subspecies, or are natural hybrids with other species in the longifolia clade...To my knowledge, and from recollection of conversation with pioneer researcher JJ, no instances of floribunda with these type characteristics proved to be devoid of dmt

..i'd suggest then that all other varieties are the ones where alkaloid variability need to be assessed...some are consistently positive..I also think there may have been misidentification with some negative results...

It's important that Seed Suppliers do some extra checking to verify quality control, and seed to type stability

Hey plant people

I'm sorry for being so absent from this thread the last months its been a bit hectic on my end. Harsh winter.. lots of dead seedlings. I felt really defeated after all the hard work I put in since moving back home.. simultaneously busy with work/was more musically/inwardly focussed during the harsh winter (some nights down to -9!).. the plants are calling again! .. emerging from dormancy. And as am I.. I'm impressed how such young seedlings braved such harsh cold .. its new shoots galore with this mild weather so am really enjoying seeing what I thought were lost plants springing to life with a lot of enthusiasm.. of course the one plant that decided to randomly germinate during some of the coldest nights was A. Phlebophylla .. truly a trough a$$ plant.. it was not phased by the weather..

Thanks for the photos CheeseCat (and would love to know then story behind your name) as well as going to the effort to categorize them.. is interesting to hear that your findings have correlated with my own. I'd be really interested to know which area the commercial variety associated with so little success came from. I feel I should add- don't be discouraged by lack of success so far with this plant.. when it finally sings its really quite awesome - its one of my favourite acacias. The extract is gentle yet precise .. there is a stillness/peacefullness about it that is deeply moving

Hopefully some new hands can help contribute to our understanding of this plant's nuances.. It seems we have agreed on some general trends in what to avoid and to look for.

Great to see you kicking about again Nen.. the acacian presence on the nexus seems to oscillate a little but after all this time keeps its spark. What do you think the best approachj moving forward in understanding this plant and its alkaloids is? To me growing both the forms confirmed to yield alkaloids as well as those that don't seems logical to grow and compare notes on.. both in terms of extraction results and taxanomic features. Its not hard to get seed from the active varieties.. I spent a lot of time gathering seed in summer of specific trees that consistently yielded good results.. even in their juvenile stage I have spotted some differences in foliage.. I will attach some photos comparing varieties soon.

I really agree about the quality control with the seed - although depends where we are coming from. Nurseries may be less sympathetic to only stocking what tryptamine enthusiasts deem the "pure variety". . particularly as the botanical classification of Floribunda is so loose (like its flowers.. most of the time ).. and according to the current classification, the commerical varieties pretty clearly fit the bill ... the pale yellow to cream coloured flowers, the often papery foliage with appressed hairs, finely anastomosing veins, the lack of a basal gland.. these features are pretty reliable accross the board in both the active ones and the inactive ones..

My understanding is that the classic botanical classification of Floribunda usually states a spectrum of pale yellow to off white/cream. Acacia legend Marion Simmons states in Acacias of Australia vol. 1 that the flowers are "light yellow, loose spikes 2 - 5 ( to 8 )cm long, produced in abundance on short fine, often hairy stalks, singly or in pairs in the leaf axils."

"Once included with longifolia but differs in its more bushy habit, paler more distant flowers, narrower, more finely nerved phyllodes".. I'd also add it has a very differen't citrusy smell compared to the almost pheromone feel when smelling the flowers of Longifolia.

Plantnet.com describes "pale yellow to ± white flowers scaterred on rachis"

In Terry Tame's book Acacia's of South East Australia he writes "inflorescence: cream to pale yellow flowers in moderately dense spikes up to 60mm long"

So there is clearly a spectrum that this plant covers under the current classification..and its irritatingly vast. We can at least conclude that the paler specimens are associated with bearing tryptamines (most of the time). As are those with broader phyllodes. Like you CheeseCat, I have only had success with broad phyllode specimens. The closely spaced narrow phyllode varieties I am yet to have any luck with.. despite their sometimes very pale loose flowers. I have also outlined differences in bark texture in positive varieties.. i don't feel like I outlined those differences particularly elegantly so maybe someone else could share their experience?

I would love to see JJ come out of the wood works to tell us more of his work with this species.. which areas he tested it in.. did the taxaonomic features vary much or were they consistent etc.. depending on the area he was testing in.. I could easily see him yielding entirely positive results (eg northern coastal NSW and eastern rural VIC).. I wonder whether he tested some of the other types that are associated with lack of success... Either way.. his findings of consistency are at odds with subsequent findings by other researchers.. but maybe its not a question of is A. Floribunda consistent.. maybe it is a question of what variety of A. Floribunda is active..and what defines that variety. I can't seem to agree that if people are getting negative results that it is probably not true floribunda... as I pointed out the classification of Floribunda is loose to begin with. It contains room for a lot of variability.. this is frustrating.

Anyways.. we seem to be on a fairly unanimous trajectory but it still feels a little to vague to me..

Thoughts on moving forward?

Those who know positive specimens.. I really encourage to go and collect seed and grow them .. share that seed. Compare it with other types and makes notes etc

Again, below is a known yielder.. displaying the agreed characteristics we should look for

..hi acacian, thanks for the update, and pic
by 'type' i meant that the original plant specimen named, originally Mimosa floribunda, in 1803, from plants grown in garden in France, from seed collected on a voyage to Australia...from memory i'm pretty sure the original description is pale cream to white flowers...(it may take me a little while to try dig that up again) ..when botanists looked around more in Australia they matched various acacias to this original description, but included wider characteristics..there's enough differences in what's called floribunda to make me slightly uncomfortable...is it a useful categorisation?...the ways you're sub dividing it here is interesting, though it's worth noting bark characteristics can be affected by environmental factors..
the early common name white sallow also suggests that form..
i threw this in anyway more to stimulate an update..

the implication here is that seed sourced from Europe, especially France, will have higher chance of being this cream flowers type, wherever it originally came from in Australia..

happy study and growing to you acacian

[edit: the lectotype was changed to Racosperma floribundum (Vent.) Pedley, Austrobaileya 2: 348 (1987) , the original lectotype is Cels gardens France..i'm suggesting the definition is now too broad]

Wow thats really interesting about the really early specimens.. was it known to be as widespread back then as currently is? I'd be interested to know how many populations were observed back then.. and whether what we are seeing are changes within the species from widespread cultivation in differen't climates (and in proximity to different species) or whether it has always been so variable but is so widespread that the differences in taxonomy hadn't yet been documented... i suspect a bit of both

I think environmental factors are one of the biggest factors at play with this species.. there are distinct changes I notice depending on the kind of environment it grows in.. up here in armidale they are much more robust, erect.. the foliage grows at the tops.. almost like some of the more desert acacias. Its less weepy but still a little.. The flowers are more lemon/pale yellow. Here in the new england its a harsh climate and the specimens are accordingly tougher I think.. go to an area like the dandenong ranges or gippsland east of Melbourne and the specimens growing in the woodlands are mostly what I'd call the "active variety" .. soft, papery, broad phyllodes. Taller trees... less prostrate than the ones often found growing in the less wild areas. Trunks, smooth but almost slightly more orange brown than the silver grey (with brown underneath) more commonly seen.

The closer I get to the coast the paler the flowers get..

I'm going to make it my mission to continue collecting seed from known active floribunda.. I have promised it to a number of people so I will make effort to get on that asap. but I will say too that even within the active ones there are some interesting differences. Seed collected from the tree in photo no.1 in the OP are significantly longer than those of the cluster of trees growing in photos 3 and 4 which are quite smaller.. both varieties active .. the first probably is closer in characteristics to this first specimen grown in france?

I have changed the name of the thread to something a little more constructive and hope to see more contributions..

below is an old post of mine in the extraction workspace. Inititally diagnosed as Acacia Longifolia, it turned out to be an active Floribunda with particularly leathery phyllodes compared to most.. I discovered this when I revisted the tree in spring.. I suspect hybridization here.. there were acacia longifolia growing in the same stand of trees. One very apparent difference between these two species is the scent of the flowers. Longifolia tends to have tighter flowers with what I can only describe as a "human-like pheromone" to them. The anastomisation with floribunda is much finer too.

Anyhoo.. this tree is an interesting one. It was highly active after heavy rain before flowering. My three tests were all in this short period. I imagine summer or winter the alkaloid profile might change as would the yield







This also suggests that extracts should not be ruled out straight away for a few reasons:

1. Doseage .. clearly the early bioassays were not a high enough doseage
2. Vaporisation technique was probably also not up to scratch
3. Appearance or smell can be misleading when other compounds are present. This extract had a differen't scent to most extracts I had tried

And as nen888 reminds us - our extraction method is important and phyllodes can behave differently plant to plant due to certain complexes. In recent years I've tended towards a slower more gentle extraction soaking for long periods of time in ethanol/water/vinegar.. (ground phyllode, twig and stem) but I should also submit material to heat as well. The ethanol/dilute acid soaking thing for me is convenient because it ticks away while I am busy with work and other commitments. I can leave it for a week and let it do its thing.. and its quiet.. a little like the extract! Future experiments in the name of better objectivity I will boil material after I do my usual method just to be sure I have for sure extracted what is/isn't present

I suspect many active extracts have been written off prematurely due to some of these factors

My friend and I are off on a Floribunda day today heading east of here (I'm northern tablelands NSW) to document trees in their natural habitat. There are some interesting forms I've observed in the area.. ranging from riverside "dwarf" specimens with much shorter phyllodes to the more tree like forms with pale flowers. I will get some material to test and hopefully over the coming weeks have some results to share. I will also be testing trees I suspect are negative as this will still help boost our growing encyclopaedia

that was an interesting one acacian, thanks
the usual definition for A floribunda is papery thin phyllodes..
if thick leathery phyllodes are keying in as the same species something seems too broad here..that may well be a longifolia cross..

i can write more when I have time, but some botanists have suggested the whole floribunda/mucronata/longifolia etc definitions have blurry boundaries and could do with a thorough taxonomic re-investigation on a formal level..some believe the inclusion of sophorae with longifolia was not needed..

There's a general divide in botany between so called 'lumpers' (lump them together), and 'splitters' (those who divide species into more categories) ..from a point of view of usefulness in both horticultural variety and phytochemical content, i would sit with the splitters..

They weren't thick like longifolia.. but much stiffer and leathery than usual floribunda. I suspect too that it is a hybrid between the two species.. surprised this hasn't been formally recognized as there are what to me seem like obvious intermediaries between the two. I'm convinced Floribunda and Mucronata hybridize and I would say the Mucronata I found active probably fall into that category

Splitters all the way. Lumping to me seems either lazy or poor eyesight/judgement.. in my arrogent opinion of course

CheeseCat.. did you test the tree pictured in the first photo of type 2? Thats very similar to the ones that have worked for me