I smoked a ton of lab-grade 5-MeO-DMT when I worked with the entheogens, and disagree with Mr. Ball's characterization of it and n,n.

Dude. You have got to grow up. How old are you, anyway? 15?

Really, I'm interested in the difference of your perspectives. Can you elaborate?

Aaaand how is this not exactly the same thing you and Ball are ripping on mckenna for? If you honestly believe that a substance can show you THE objective ultimate truth (and that this truth is correct above all others) you're just a dogmatic fanboy (sorry art, had to steal your word).

Insults are soo mature..

I'm interested to hear from others who have smoked 5-meo.

I'm not saying that I believe any of them.. because until I have the experience myself, I can't fully believe it. But from what I have read, 5-meo is far beyond the range of nn-dmt.

I am trying to have a mature discussion here.. honestly guys..

I'm not trying to push my beliefs on anyone, I just want to have an intellectual discussion.

How can there be an intellectual discussion when at least one of your core arguments (or requests for contrast) is fallacious in nature and one of the points against mckenna has to do with the tone of his voice indicating his authenticity?

I have to echo jbark's sentiment, it really doesn't feel like you're reading these responses to what you're saying, or if you are, you're not understanding what people are saying.

"And imagine, people are offended at my perspective! My perspective is that each and every one of those offended people is God (albeit likely very confused about that fact, just like Terence)!"

Ironically enough, dr. Ball, both of your ideas on humans and gods actually mirror each other. One with a cultish zeal, the other with a belly laugh.

Maybe it is a stretch to argue McKenna's voice.. I agree. Maybe that was his authentic tone.. I completely see your point.

One of the arguments that I do think is worthy of mention is the fact that McKenna did not care for 5-meo and smoked more nn-dmt. To me, this is telling evidence.

Then behave intellectually and address the criticisms being leveled against mr ball. His ideas are not being attacked, his bullying demeanor is.

And don't make claims that ANYTHING can reveal to you the ultimate truth. That kind of assertion is naive and has no place in an "intellectual" discussion.

JBArk

I do see your point, and I apologize for not addressing this earlier.

All I am saying about 5-meo is that SUPPOSEDLY if you smoke it, you can experience the ultimate point.. NOT NECESSARILY!!.. But from what I have read, it seems plausible.

There is no entheogen, no spiritual practice, no variety of meditation or yoga or prayer, no religion or dogma, that can show a human being the ultimate truth. (And this assumes there IS an ultimate truth, which may not be the case.)

Human beings do not have the capacity to grasp the ultimate truth. Even if the ultimate truth were shoved in our collective faces, and we were told it was the ultimate truth, we wouldn’t be able to comprehend it. We simply don’t have the capacity.

Evidence of what? I dotn really understand what you are referring to..

I havenot smoked pure meo, But I have drank ayahuasca with chaliponga, smoked alot of chaliponga extracts and a phalaris extraction that I am nearly sure was chalk full of meo. With a brew with chaliponga I lay on the floor helplessly experiencing the deconstruction and reconstruction of the untre cosmos over and over and again, cycling into infinity..there would be everything, then it would all come apart, destroyed and all that was left was a vast, black void..then it would all start to come back together again, reconstructed and all the forms of the cosmos including me would return, only to go through it all over again.

Smoking the phalaris extraction(other extractions of other grass never yielded the same effects whatsoever) I basically felt it come on, felt a pop sort of effect in my pineal area and then I was gone..cant really say much else..I remember some red sort of tint but thats it, I just wasnt there anymore.chaliponga extracts smoked at high doses were very very loopy, similar to when brewed..

I know Martin Ball has stated that salvinorin A brings one to a very similar state to 5meoDMT..and Ive smoked ALOT of salvia divinorum..Salvia completely deconstructed my ego many times and had "me" spread across multiple dimesions of existance simultaniousily, experienceing the consciousness of many many beings all at once.

I dont personally feel a pull towards the idea of an "ultimate truth"..hard for me to explain why..there may be something analagous to that..but its too "higher dimensional" to be put into a simple little phrase like that..with no one avenue leading to it.

5-meo is SUPPOSEDLY the only true entheogen, in that it can give the user the experience of consciously being God. This can be argued, but there are people who are having this experience and have come back to talk about it.

Have you really never experienced complete ego death with DMT, where you are just merged fully within the infinite fractaline ocean? Im seriousily curious because some people say they havent, that they are always aware of they're self and daily ego consciousness..not me though..not when I really break through. I dont even really see beings or anything often with vaped DMT or changa, I just dissolve into a fractaline abyss of energy where I am everything. I come back shaking and moaning making the strangest noises with energy pouring out of me.

I think what 5-meo and Salvinorin A show experientially, is that we are all simultaneously everything that is. I can't speak for 5-meo, but through my salvia journeys this is what I brought back.

I see your point about the "ultimate truth" though.. Our minds really cannot grasp the ultimate truth, if there even is one.

SWIM has.. Him and his girlfriend took 5 hits of high powered acid and smoked a good dose of DMT while peaking. It was one of the most intense experiences of his life. Same intensity of salvia but not as dark. Visually he can't remember much, but he completely lost his ego and was pulled into the void, only to be reeled back once he reached the end point.

Please cloud, this will be my last time asking this specific question:
How is this claim any different than mckenna's discussion of machine elves???

it's literally the same; subjective experiences being presented as fact, and having the potential to completely mislead people (which you claim to take so much issue with). Can you really not see the glaring similarity?

Yes, I see your point.. But if many people are having this experience, is it not reasonable to think that it might actually be true?

With McKenna, he was seeing something that no one else was.

Entirely false. What he calls machine elves, others call entities. Look around this forum and you will see hundreds, perhaps thousands of references to entities. Some even use Mckenna's term. So Ball 1, Mckenna 1. You seem to want to keep score...

I'm sorry, but if you continue to make baseless accusations and false statements, you are going to be called on them.

JBArk