This is where we differ.

Traditional doesn't matter, as much as employing workable systems for healing, etc. It just so happens that in Amazonian Curanderismo, they discovered vine many years ago, and it does the job very well indeed. Loook at all the most healing of plants used, and they usually have a long duration of action, even snuffs are longer acting or at least used in a way to extend the ceremonies. If you smoke DM, you build tolerance too fast. It seems obvious that adding vine (Ayahuasca) was obviously the most advanced and intelligent choice, but it never was in that order because the vine tends to have priority over the DM, which seems to be more a Western obsession.

So DM Shaman no, but with added Caapi, maybe...

Take it up with the Sangoma, Nyanga, and Amagqirha people of Africa, all of whom have decided that 2-CB is an improvement on their historically used plant medicines. I don't know the details, but I imagine that the healers in question had experience with both, compared them, and decided that 2-CB filled their needs better than the plant medicines did.

I also imagine that they understand the needs of their culture far better than we do, and so I'm not about to second guess their judgements as someone who has no experience with their belief system.

Blessings
~ND

thats very interesting to learn nathanial... odd that they chose something like 2cb over say synthetic mescaline, or even LSD. but i guess everybody is differen't

Judging from the linked article, it seems that the choice was a direct result of initial OTC availability.

That set of circumstances is really very interesting. And a nice counterpoint to some of the cultural appropriation arguments.

The Sangoma might do well to try growing some appropriate cacti for enhanced autonomy.

The difference between what happened with the Sangoma and cultural appropriation are actually pretty important:

Cultural appropriation happens only when three criteria are met:

1) The two cultures involved have unequal social, economic, or political power.

2) The culture being appropriated FROM is the less dominant culture.

3) The thing being appropriated is of profound cultural signifiance.

So, here are two examples one of CA, one is not.

When festie kids wear headdresses, that is a clear instance of CA - the headdress is a sacred thing to several indigenous cultures and can only be worn under certain circumstances, usually related to valor or social status. Mainstream American culture is also clearly dominant over Indigenous American culture - after all, the Indigenous peoples were victims of a massive genocide (both biological and cultural), and they still face massive systemic oppression today.

Hopefully that is pretty transparently clear.

In contrast, if an Indigenous person were to, say, play in a heavy band, that would NOT be cultural appropriation, despite the fact that metal is very clearly derived from mainstream American culture, which our hypothetical person is not necessarily part of. But, because conditions (2) and (3) have not been met, it doesn't count.

The key concern among people who advocate against cultural appropriation is that some culture is getting exploited. Once more for the folks in the back: no one is trying to stop cultural exchange, we're all in favor of that, what we're trying stop is the exploitation of oppressed or marginalized people by a more powerful group.

So, in the case of 2-CB, you can pretty clearly see it's not cultural appropriation because:

1) 2-CB was not initially sacred to any one culture.
2) The African people's who have adopted it are not dominating or exploiting a weaker culture.

Understand?

Blessings
~ND

Yes, perhaps due to availability. Nevertheless 2CB is both an Empathogen and Psychadelic substance, and might have similar healing characteristics like MDMA, perhaps in terms of possibly healing fear based issues.

Getting back on the main topic, and the concern about a DM Shaman, if ever one was to exist to me anyhow, would be why would they choose such a perhaps difficult/ if not impossible to work with substance, when they could simply add Caapi, and transform it into something that would be workable?

I mean to anyone with a clue, it should look both highly suspect and strange for a Shaman to make such a choice? Kind of like a supposedly 'wise person' who should know better, choosing to make life difficult for himself. Stubborness, and stupidity, springs to mind. This probably explains why DM Shamans don't exist.

I don't agree with your definition of a potential dmt shaman should only use dmt. Where do you draw the line? May he use music please?

Ayahuasca is "The Vine" emphasized, with helper DMT plants chacri or chali and another rainbow of other plants possible.

A potential DTM Shaman should (in my eyes) has "DMT" emphasized, with helper plants like the vine, rue and whatnot all at disposal for molding the experience.

So just the same as ayahuasca actually but with the pointer of the ratio slider heavily at the DMT side. Is just a personal opinion though, fwiw.

A friend of mine is very terrified for a breaktrough and is put off by even thinking about it, yet he came to use changa in sub breaktrough levels which he considers hugely therapeutically. I know I cannot move him to higher doses but why on earth would I want to? Ditch not-workable.

BTW I've had traditional (very indigenous brewed) aya that was not workable with a depthness unmatched that only sailing out was possible. The idea that traditional brew is per se workable has gone for me since.

Picking a candidate for a potential dmt shaman, servicing the community with a practice in real, he is a nexian but I stray from calling his name/country, your remarks of "...Kind of like a supposedly 'wise person' who should know better, choosing to make life difficult for himself. Stubborness, and stupidity, springs to mind..." toward this person is truly not done. I dunno if he likes me thinking of him like a dmt shaman though, but I suppose he comes close at least. And oh yes he sure knows what ayahuasca is.

Talk about misguiding!

I was under the impression a DM Shaman only used DM. Why? Because the moment Caapi comes into the mix, we're not talking DM, but Ayahuasca or Changa. So therefore a DM Shaman is not only confusing, but potentially dangerous. I mean what if a person thought they only used DM, and therefore thought it was ok to use antidepressants or stimulants, not knowing that he was seeing a Shaman who also worked with Caapi or Harmalas?

Did you think of that one Jees?

So now we are dealing with possibly very serious health issues, because of people choosing to use misguiding labels that break a 'trades description act', and can only confuse others who participate. I mean if the 'Shaman' was intelligent, then why didn't he just say Ayahuasca or Changa? Why confuse the duck out of someone calling himself a DM Shaman, if he wasn't only that? Seems unwise, and almost as if such a person is trying to be different for the sake of being difficult, when in reality they are lying to themselves and also to others. Misguided, confusing, madness. Certainly not what i would expect from any self respecting Shaman, unless they were truly a Sham Man

Jees, I think its safe to assume the context of the OP was that of smoked DMT... yes dmt is often used in conjunction with ayahuasca and is an inherent aspect of changa (much the same ballpark as freebase though at higher doses without getting into semantics)..
The "breakthrough dose" smoked dmt is different to common dose of ayahuasca and I think the two shouldn't be lumped together in this discussion

.. I would say the "shaman" figure lends itself to a more drawn out and generally more physically aware experience like that of ayahuasca... with the nature of smoked dmt in mind I think there is more risk of distraction .. as opposed to guidance .. the wisdom of the experience comes out best with silence and minimal external input for me

i find it hard to believe that any type of shaman would be of any use while your deep in the madness of propa dose of magic.

It was my understanding that the African shamans were using 2cb not because they wanted to, but do to the current scarcity of their traditional Entheogen, Iboga which is in danger of extinction in the wild. I also heard they will use alchohol in their ceremonies if there is nothing else. To me this actually points to a degradation of their ceremonies instead of convincing me 2cb is good.

I've had 2c on many occasions in the past and it's my opinion that it is pure toxic crap

Yes, and a simple little talk between provider and receiver deals with that, I can't see a problem tbh.

When you go with an ayahuasca shaman you always expect to get your typical common known standardized cuppa aya? Some wouldn't even let you drink. Out the window goes the label-means-what-you-get. This freedom of interpretation I extrapolated toward the term DMT shaman but people do not seem to like that, that's okay with me.

I've had a handful of four-tabacco ceremonies under the umbrella of the extremely traditional and shamanistic cult of the Camino Rojo movement, the ultimate opposite of plastic shamanic. Do you expect them to use tabacco only because it has that label/name? There comes in 2 teacher plants (in sequel) to support the tabacco focus. Should we call them therefore not consequent and advise them to change nomenclature? Therefore (just a personal idea) that a DMT shaman could have a broader definition than solely breaktrough-on-FB. Maybe I grew too much out of classifying.

For myself I think alike, but some people might request a pro sitter by all means or not embark at all.

Shouldn't there be a fourth condition: that when adopted, it loses it's sacred status? For instance, most westerners who take peyote (when the peyote is ethically grown and harvested) have i think, the same respect for this cactus, as native american indians. So i wouldn't realy call that cultural appropriation. Or at least, i don't think that it's somehow degrading and thus harmfull when a westerner takes peyote.
The headdress is i think, degrading because a mockery is being made out of something that's sacred, and it's meeting those three conditions you've listed.

an interesting viewpoint

I only had one experience with 2cb and most of it was spent alone at home with my dog after leaving a party I was getting bad vibes off.. it was very powerful visually.. but there was something empty about it for me... I had a wonderful experience on 2ci sometime later in the company of friends...

Others find 2cb a great psychedelic and empathogen though so there you go..

You are right, a DMT shaman could well be broader than "solely breakthrough-on-FB".. I was more discussing the merits of the freebase use itself than the broader possible plant inclusions.



I would say that person is more of a facilitator.. nothing wrong with facilitating someone's dmt experience - that is how a lot of people come across dmt to begin with and it can be great having somebody present - but it is differen't to a shaman who is implementing various techniques during the experience to "contact" the spirits and help guide the journey.. or hold the space... freebase dmt smoked at the breakthrough dose is so powerful it transcends those needs - that is, if the setting is right (and by right I mean minimal possible distractions that can interrupt the journey)

Thanks ND, I understood your CA arguments in the first place.

Where did I ever say that this use of 2C-B was cultural appropriation?? I was attempting to keep my post straightforward and perhaps you misconstrued my choice of words as somehow implying that I believed the Sangoma's choice of 2C-B for their Work was in some way a case of cultural appropriation, which clearly it is not. (I suspect my cognitive mapping of the word "counterpoint" relates to musical contrast more so than yours does.)

I appreciated this use as a case where modern technology was being used within an oppressed culture to fulfil a purpose that was in danger of being lost due to the scarcity and difficult availability of their dream plants within the townships. Moreover, the article suggested that many of the traditional practitioners felt that 2C-B had additional the additional benefit of being less toxic than the plants which it replaces. This I found to be an uplifting contrast to the cultural appropriation which you so ably critique.

My thinking was then extended to consider how they might be liberated from the consequent necessity of purchasing a (now banned) chemically synthesised compound for their Work - the autonomous, sustainable approach would surely be growing one's own mescaline-producing cacti. Perhaps this is already happening. I most assuredly hope so.


As far as the original question goes, shaman or not, it may be of use to have someone who understands intent and space holding - helping manage 'set' as well as 'setting' - to assist the hypernaut before and after the launch, and to leave well alone during the flight itself. But then again, if someone can't sort that out for themselves, should they even be smoking DMT?

Pick up the beer cans, do the washing up, sweep the floor, make the bed, put the washing on, feed the children, hang the washing out, take the children to the park, come back, put more washing on, take in the dry washing, iron it (yeah, right!) and put it away, feed the kids again, bathe them, put them to bed, then (if there's still time) smoke the DMT...? YEAH, RIGHT! Phone up your shaman/paye/whatever and say s/he can stay in and smoke the DMT hirself. Then go to bed. Repeat, with variation.

I would tentatively accept that, with one major caveat:

The dominant culture (the one doing the appropriating) does NOT get to decide whether something has lost it's status. That power is left solely with the culture being appropriated from.

Eg: many people defend the name 'Redskins' for the football team by saying that they're 'honoring' the Indigenous peoples, which the actual people in question have soundly rejected.

To bounce off of the peyote example, I think that if those westerners are taking peyote in a way that the Indigenous culture decides is sacrilegious (like, maybe eating some and going to a rave), then it's still cultural appropriation.

It gets weird with plants though (like peyote) since the plant and the molecule pre-date human activity and exist independently of it (unlike a headdress which is a human invention). When trying to remain ethical, I try and think like this:

I don't take Ayahuasca (which is a cultural symbol associated with a tremendous amount of stuff I do not understand), I use the naturally occuring MAOI in B. Caapi to facilitate oral DMT. Ayahuasca is a lot more than the brew itself, it's the rituals, history, and spiritual symbology that goes along with it.

Blessings
~ND

Yeah.. it is of definite value to have someone versed in the above, and also somewhat true regarding whether someone should blast off if they can't sort that out themselves - though I guess if you haven't had the experience before you may not quite understand just how sensitive it is. A good facilitator is an invaluable ally to have present for anyone new to the experience.. hopefully after their first deep experience (or first few) they will start to understand themselves how best to build a suitable setting for launch. Trial and error

Well that wasn't mentioned in the op, which read to me as a breakthru smoked. Now this is getting even more confusing and silly.

Come come now, No Shaman worthy of respect would ever call himself a DM Shaman. Surely that demonstrates an poor choice of tool, or lack of understanding?

There is a good reason why Ayahuasca has lasted the test of time, its because it works and because it lends itself to ease of use and ceremonial ritual.

Let's take that OP back for a check:
It's an open question how we all might see it and everyone's perspective is invited to share. There's nothing confusing or silly IMHO.