Cloud wrote:

His ideas are about as ancient and unoriginal as they come. He has the New Age penchant for picking and choosing what most suits him from the religious texts of the world, then disregarding the rest.

Interesting? maybe, to some. But I define interesting as bringing something new to the table. Mr. Ball's table is a hodgepodge of authentic, re-appropriated and ancient ideas (written in the prose of an eloquent 15 year old).

JBArk

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As I have stated, all ancient religions are completely littered with fantasy. Belief in afterlife is purely fantasy. We have no proof that there is an afterlife.. so I cannot take any of those beliefs seriously.

There is truth in some of these ancient texts, and Martin has successfully taken them out.

If they are true.. then why not?.. If Martin is trying to claim that he knows the absolute truth, then it would be NECESSARY to take these elements from ancient religions.. for there are GRAINS of truth in EVERY religion.


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So you agree - he is not original. You just had to say so!!

Insofar as him attacking Mr Mckenna, why bother if he has transcended ego? just bring what you have to the table and leave the calumny to others. I would respect him more then. But attacking someone for having a nasally voice, and claiming this is proof of their unworthiness, is not only laughable, but a pathetic, ego-ridden and ego-driven schoolyard tactic.

And in contradiction with what he professes.

JBArk

EDIT - don't know why those quotes are so messed up. I tried and failed to fix it... for clarity I have bolded and italicised the quote and the quote within the quote.

Well, this is my assumption also, so maybe my beliefs aren’t quite as close to mainstream as I thought.



I think I see what you’re saying. Terence was more of an explorer of the psyche, whereas Martin is more of a spiritual seeker. Correct?

DMT has more than one use. I use it (I think) for spiritual seeking – more in line with Martin I guess, but using it to explore the psyche is equally valid.

DMT is a key that opens many doors.

Mckenna NEVER touted his fantasy as truth, you seem to be missing that throughout this thread.

As to your request that you want someone to point out something that Ball has said that can be proven false, all I can say is that this is the fallacy at the heart of your argument. This is a logical fallacy known as an Argument from Ignorance.

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So you agree - he is not original. You just had to say so!!

Insofar as him attacking Mr Mckenna, why bother if he has transcended ego? just bring what you have to the table and leave the calumny to others. I would respect him more then. But attacking someone for having a nasally voice, and claiming this is proof of their unworthiness, is not only laughable, but a pathetic, ego-ridden and ego-driven schoolyard tactic.

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The reason Martin goes to the length to point this out is because there are quite a few people out there that do in fact take Terence McKenna seriously. At one point, I can honestly say that I was one of those people. Why would he even bother spreading fantasy?.. It takes you further away from the truth. McKenna had his "rap" that he would explain over and over again in different places.. But what is the point of that?.. It creates a mythology for DMT users. If he didn't take any of it seriously, why did he even bother bringing it up?

The point about the voice is somewhat valid. If McKenna was speaking from his heart, he would be speaking with deeper tones, and with less hesitation.

Here is a message that SWIM recently received from Martin.

SWIM was telling him about how everyone here thinks HE is the one with the big ego, because he claims to know the absolute truth.. and this was his response.

"I make egos terribly uncomfortable as they have difficulty distinguishing energetic certainty from arrogance. Especially in "new agey" circles, the values of "tolerance," "acceptance," "openness" have atrophied the ability of most to distinguish between competing claims about reality. There's this highly mistaken notion that "all perspectives are equally valid" and that anyone who says anything definitive is being intolerant. That's just not true, however, and people need to get over themselves if they actually want to deal with reality. If they want to play ego games, then sure, all perspectives are equally valid. But when it comes to reality, there is truth, and then there is illusion and projection and the two are clearly energetically distinct.

Personally, I don't pretend to hide behind false masks of "modesty" and "humility." I know I'm right and I'm not going to soften my position just so I'm not so shocking and confronting for people. People think that because I stand up for myself and what I've learned that I'm being arrogant and egotistical. Well, they're wrong, and I'm not, so I really don't care what they think.

The most important thing is that for individuals who are truly ready to face reality, I am providing a crystal clear map for how to do it and what that reality is without any beliefs, dogmas, speculations, or anything else. While I do care universally for all beings, I'm invested the most in those who are truly ready, and for them, I will be all that I can be as a beacon for reality. For confused egos, I will always be an eternal frustration. For those who are ready, they know I'm speaking the simple truth. Just the way things go.

And imagine, people are offended at my perspective! My perspective is that each and every one of those offended people is God (albeit likely very confused about that fact, just like Terence)! They can bitch and moan about that all they want, but I don't find anything offensive about that at all. If they want to grow up and take responsibility for themselves as an autonomous version of God, then I'm ready and willing to help them. If not - if they want to hold on to fairy tale beliefs and children's stories - then have fun! All that does is make one a very powerful, yet very confused, being."

I would posit that this is a failing with them/you, not mckenna.


I'm a little floored by this claim. You can't possibly argue this with any sort of logic or rational support. How can you say what mckenna sounds like when speaking from his heart (or that he wasn't); you are not inside of his head. This is an incredibly shallow and baseless judgement to say the least. Perhaps he hesitated (as I know I do) when discussing hyperspatial experiences and qualities because interpolating them into lower dimensional explanations (words) takes a second to make sure you are accurately conveying the concept in your mind (as when a non-native language speaker fumbles around for the words to express a concept he knows in his native language, but is unable to vocalize in his secondary one).

What about all of his references to chakras? Hasn't this whole concept been thoroughly debunked by the scientific community? How are his theories of energy centers any less fantastical than stories of elves and alien abduction? And what makes him qualified to "counsel" others on their experiences? Is he doing this for profit?? He certainly relies on listener charity to enable his daily "work" (or as I like to call it... TRIPPING). He often claims during the begathon portion of his podcasts that traditional employment is just not possible for him, as all night ayahuasca sessions are fundamental to his "work".

Cloud - You are a bit of a fanboy. Why do you so need a leader?

He has actually gone on to say that the chakra system is a fantasy as well.

I lead myself. That is the point.

His explanation of energy and reality makes perfect sense to me.. So I will choose to believe it.

As to your idol's most recent response - all I can say is what colossal arrogance. I'm about as new agey a guy as Burnt is; in other words, not so much. But arrogance is an offputting trait - and the truth is that Martin Ball just isn't the intellect that you or he seem to believe he is.

The point about the voice is somewhat valid. If McKenna was speaking from his heart, he would be speaking with deeper tones, and with less hesitation.
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Legitimate verifiable source please?

Sounds like "hey four eyes" logic to me...

Mr ball wrote:


No, he's being arrogant and egotistical because he is attacking someone who can't defend himself with schoolyard zeal and strategy, and trying to pass off his version of things as authentic in the same breath.

JBArk

What I find most interesting about all of this, is the fact that so many people take this stuff to heart. Why is it offensive to so many people when Martin criticizes McKenna?.. It is true, McKenna was not claiming to be telling the truth about his experiences, but my question is, why would he even bother spreading a story that had no relevance to the actual experience? It is all just fantasy. It keeps people further away from experiencing the ultimate truth. McKenna was doing his best at trying to describe something indescribable with language.. But it was still so far from the truth.

McKenna DOES have a following.. whether you are a follower or not. There are MANY people that take him and his trips seriously.. There are sound clips littered all over the internet to prove this.

Martin offers a system that is simple and straightforward. It is all about energy, not fantasy.

If people want to keep making up these fantastical stories about elves or aliens then that is their own problem. In reality, these types of trips keep people further away from living their lives in truth and authenticity.

You still don't get it... are you reading these posts? No offense, but you sound so convinced of his authority on this subject that you are incapable of listening (or maybe even reading in the first place) others' takes on it. That is called fundamentalism.

In essence the only thing most people here have been criticizing him for is his arrogant bullying attitude.
Yet you come back to his ideas... the thrust of the article was an attack, or harsh criticism, if you'd like me to put it mildly, of a man whose ideas have drawn us all, directly or indirectly, to this molecule. He was an orator. I don't venerate him, although I think he's interesting and relevant and, yes, important.

But that's not the point. If mr. Ball had told you your voice was not from the heart because it was slightly higher pitched, in a public forum, I would jump to your defense also. Even if you believe the man is great, please don't make the mistake of overlooking his pettiness.

I come back to the voice thing because it is emblematic of his attack. There are other examples. Anyway, if you can't see this yet, no one will convince you.

So enjoy Mr. Ball.

JBArk

Cloud - Listen to this. Take it in and then discard it if you like (which I'm sure you are likely to do).

NO ONE HAS A MONOPOLY ON THE TRUTH. NO ONE OTHER THAN ME IS QUALIFIED TO BREAK DOWN MY EXPERIENCE OF GOD. NO ONE KNOWS WHERE WE GO WITH CERTAINTY AND NO ONE CAN ARTICULATE IT. THOSE WHO CLAIM KNOWLEDGE OF ABSOLUTES IN THIS ARENA ARE WINDBAGS, PSYCHOTICS AND CHARLATANS.

Has ANYONE in this discussion even smoked 5-meo?

I've already said that I haven't. But what the fuck does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

So are you suggesting that those who smoke 5-meo DO have a monopoly on the truth?

I do believe in what Martin has to say on the subject of reality and energy. If that makes others unhappy or uncomfortable, that is their own problem. I will continue working with these substances in the proper manner, without letting my ego project fantasy.

I agree.. No one has a monopoly on the truth. What Martin says may or may not be true.. but to me it makes the most sense out of anything that I have heard or read thus far. He isn't my idol, but I do respect his opinion.

Everything is energy.. One energy.. There is no duality within that energy.. We are all connected to this One energy.. And that is how it is. Because I believe this, that makes Martin my idol?

He is confident in what he believes, and some people mistake that for arrogance.

hmm..I really just wish Martin Ball was here to join the discussion instead of you posting some comments for him cloud..We'd get alot farther that way.

I really hate seeing this turn into a Martin Ball bashing thread..becasue that really does say something about our egos here. Alot of what he says I have always resonated with. I have already made it clear that I dont have a problem with his ideas so much as I just dont think they necessarily invalidate the ideas of some others as well, Mckenna included.

I understand what Martin Ball is saying, I really do. I guess I jsut see this place as infinite..and all connected..within an infinity of interconnectedness, there must be infinite subjectiveness as well that weaves it all back together again. Mckenna delved in that realm(subjectiveness, ego..), Martin delves in the one of objective reality(unity, non-ego). Again, ego is not inherantly a BAD thing. I dont see why one HAS to be flawed while the other is superior..One MAY exist(in a sense) on a higher level, which is Martins view I am talking about..but even then to say that is even dualistic..so there is a paradox there..there always is, always will be..Ive accepted that and moved beyond worrying about it.

I dont like how he lumps us all together as "new agers" or simply "Mckenna fans" etc...and not becasue hes not being "humble" enough or anything like that..I just think its an oversimplification..Thats all. I can respect that he is an individual and not afraid to speak his mind.

I dont really have much else to say on the subject for now.

From what I have read, 5-meo will take you past the fantasy realms that nn-dmt can take you, and bring you to the source energy. This is also Talked about in James Oroc's book Tryptamine Palace. This is reverberated by many others in experience reports on erowid.

Martin is familiar with the 5-meo territory, and I believe this gives him some credence.

5-meo is supposed to show you the ultimate truth when smoked.