I meant that even if people witnessed miracles, but did not belong to God, it would do no good. It is the mission of Christianity to preach the Gospel in every corner of the world, so those who do not know shall hear the Gospel.

What happens to those who have not heard the Gospel? - I don't know. All I know is those who hear and reject, do not belong to God.



I agree that organized religion always becomes infected by the world. God requires true worshippers in spirit and truth.

Nobody is excluded. Those who hear the Gospel, and want to be included, are accepted. More than this, there is a celebration in Heaven at such times.

Those who do not want, get what they desire. The mechanics of free will and predestination I don't even pretend to understand.



I'm the vilest scum that has ever walked the face of this earth.



Nothing. I've done nothing. I'm God's most unprofitable and worthless servant.



Cool. I love you too Fractal Enchantment. Peace.

The insidious forces destroying Christianity appear to be Christianity itself. There seem to be many "not true Scotsmen" about. When a doctrine cannot take responsibility for the results of it's institutions, it may only become increasingly weaker.

Own up to ALL of your Scotsmen, or become fragmented.

haha exactly but you know its only SATAN making us think that

The kingdom is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

The owner’s servants came to him and said, “Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?”

“An enemy did this,” he replied.

The servants asked him, “Do you want us to go and pull them up?”

“No,” he answered, “because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned, then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn” -- Matthew 13:24-30

This irritates me the most. Trying to push the responsibility for despicable acts by members of the church onto other parties/forces?

It's this kind of reasoning that allows religion to justify it's actions, and why it's impossible to challenge the brainwashed about it. It's real sad.

Interesting how, like the proverbial butterfly effect, there is a reaction, then reactions to a reaction and on it goes. Very fractal.

Every person is responsible for what they do. Organizations are responsible for how they handle situations. Let's just say that certain unsavoury aspects of Christianity are magnified, which taints people's attitude, generating an atmosphere of hostility and, in your case, pity for 'brainwashed' believers.

This is what Jesus had to say about those who hurt children:

"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

I think I slightly mis-interpreted that post originally. However, I think that the destruction of christianity, even by those 3 points you mentioned, isn't necessarily a bad thing. Because I don't believe in it, or it's enemy in the first place.
It's not the enemy of god. It's the gift of reason.

Peace though brother.

[quote=Morphane
I meant that even if people witnessed miracles, but did not belong to God, it would do no good. It is the mission of Christianity to preach the Gospel in every corner of the world, so those who do not know shall hear the Gospel.[/quote]


Dont you mean to say that it has been the mission of christianity to commit cultural genocide in every corner of the world? Killing millions of innocent people when they dont accept the gospel and erradicatiog any link they have to their own past?

Again it seems you have the assumption that you are somehow more "good" becasue you somehow "belong to god"...so how does someone not belong to god? To me god must be EVERYTHING..there is no "outside" of god..yet you seem to imply that there is and that there is some other being besides "god" out there that can own things..

Lots of people belive in some sort of god and are not christians..

Can you explain to me how you KNOW for a fact that when people witness a miracle, yet do not belong to god it would be no good? That seems like a cop out since, I mean, the miracle already happened..did it not?..why not just give them no miracle at all then?..makes no sense..how can a miracle be no good..wouldn't that sort of defeat the purpose of the word itself?

It's just sick becasue it is this same type of thinking that allows people to tell themselves that it is ok to hurt others, like the church has in the past..it allows them to place themselves above others in importance and they think they are making gods decisions or something..it's horrible.

I dont care to argue this point any farther so I wont post in this thread again..makes me sad knowing that people out there still think this way and see others as somehow less than they are.

Why are people toting religious fervor on a psychedelic drug forum?

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful" seneca the younger

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." Thomas Jefferson

Because interpreting pity and Illness through the Religious Dogma makes you a good servant for this Religion and its
Hypno-therapeutic teachers ? So if you experience Demonic Posession your only one step away of being a good preacher.


Not exactly on topic , but do you know todays Megachurches ? They are the biggest Churches in America (stadium-sized).
Most of them have riddened themselves of Christ and Cross , have Brand Logos instead , Hell yeah !
(Not to forget those machines that imitate the presence of the Holy Ghost and other cool miracles- en masse!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

Observant

That link is more scary than the octopus.

Remember kids!

One man's Jezus is another man's Satan.

All organised religions are vile, cause they tell people there not responsible for there own excistence. These religions create drone minions that don't think for themselfs and even more importantly don't question the ever changin world that surrounds them. Instead they cower behind a archaic set of rules that have been warped and twisted by power hungry people that understand very well that there a lot of people are better controlled when there insecuraties of being are fed by there rules. It really is a shame this still happens in educated places...

If gods create everything? why is it always men trying to find the cures?

Stop hinding behind this sillyness, and brave the universe yourself. You can do it! goddammit!

V

You have got to be kidding me....

psychic vampires,aliens,mythical Gods they can not compete with the self realized truth of a properly respected DMT experience.

DMT has benefits for all people Atheists and Agnostics, the only ones who do no have there vision enhanced by it are the closed minds who fail to open there eyes.

With DMT there are no hoops to jump thru or collection plates to fill no opposing religions to discredit or other humans to murder.

Once again my obvious choice is a NO BRAINIER.


Peace
MV

....it is impossible to fill a cup that is already full....

observant- that video was stupifying.

i'm sure a few of you have read my firm stance on would-be channels and religo-cult fanatics regarding member she/it et al.... it is timely that no sooner than do i feel like i have washed my hand of one zealot when another appears. this is THE DMT-NEXUS people! this is not a soap box to come preach outdated, fear-based man-made constructs.

yes. religion is man-made. yes.

the plants we use as medicine and the consciousness they share with us for such a brief but sacred time have been around long before man. it would not be far from the truth to imagine that man....acting from his lower self (the self that feels the need to "know" shit) would feel the need to try and quantify a powerful plant-medicine experience.... it would look something like this:

early man....eats a mushroom....experiences true "unknowingness"....comes back to his tribe and tries to "explain" what he saw....everyone is right in deciding that it is something "greater" or "outside" of themselves...but some feel fear towards this unknown thing and, acting from fear, give it power.

over millenia it evolves a name and men begin to kill and die in that name. religion. it didn't just come hard-wired into us as humans....the worst parts of it are conditioned....learned...

i was kicked out of catholic school. i've never subscribed to organized religion ever. nor cults. nor anyone claiming to "know" anything... i have been as deep as anyone using DMT and i can say this much:

the one thing i KNOW is that i KNOW TOO MUCH!! all that KNOWING prevents me from BEING. i have no interest in being a HUMAN KNOWING. i want to be a HUMAN BEING....and true BEING requires letting go of what that tiny little sack of noodles in your skull can hold. it's less than a speck of what is available to us all within the GREAT UNKNOWINGNESS that is hyperspace.....you only "know" stuff to help your ego define itself....every one of us would define ourselves ultimately as a collection of knowledge unique to our individual life-experience. but we are all much greater than that...and experiencing that, if only for a moment through the guidance of a plant entheogen....THAT is the beginning of wisdom!

there is no "god". "god" is a word. truly. and with that word, everyone without the slightest bit of imagination, conjures up an image. anything that has a scrap of knowing is not god. just as the tao te ching states, "the tao that can be named is not the eternal tao". i have since replaced the word "god" with "unknowingness".

let me know if you can come up with a mental image for THAT! no? good. you're on your way....

there is so much collective wisdom on this site and so many different viewpoints....i enjoy them all....even the frightened religophiles'.....everything just goes south the minute ANYONE starts preaching that their way is THE way. i'm MUCH more inclined to listen to someone who begins their contributions with, "i can't explain"...or "i don't know".... these are the sages here on the nexus.

i kneel humbly before the mighty unknowingness of which i am a part. i recognize the unknowingness in all of us. may we all have increased experiences of unknowingness and slowly strip away all that we "know". it is an awakening based on unlearning....the more space that is created, the more wonder can be experienced....it is no surprise at all to me that someone so topped-up with religion would have a terrifying journey on DMT. the no place for the molecule to enter!

if you would be taught, don't pretend to already know.

LOVE AND GRATITUDE!!

well said antrocles

.
.
The best line from the movie "The Usual Suspects" is from Kevin Spacey's character:

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist."

I don't buy it for a second though. I know that religion HATH killed MANY more people than it HATH ever saved...

"Believe what I believe or DIE" that is just one of many christian subconscious mantras.

I give it to you, Morphane. You have grapes. You believe that walking into the lions den(of REASON) and preaching will get you past St.Peter, but Faith is an EXCUSE for NOT REASONING. Faith allows one to IGNORE the facts. Faith allows one to share ELITIST MOB CONSCIOUSNESS and look down their collective nose at us hell-bound heathens.
Your sense of duty is compelling, friend, but misplaced. Religion is a malignancy of the unexplainable. An out of control growth that serves only its enforcers.
History reveals the utter brutality of the church. How many 'witches' died BY FIRE at the hands of the church?

How many indigenous people died at the hands of the brutal Cortez? All for what? Their gold. Under the guise of religion, of the 'greater good. HA!

Sorry, but if you start a soapbox you can't expect to be the only one who gets on it.


I know the more we say you are misguided the more you will believe you are on the right path so I will just thank you for setting me straight and call it done...

Man oh man.....

I've only been posting for one day and I've been dying to get my own two cents worth in here for this one. I'll start by saying that I fully respect each and every persons right to believe what they choose to believe, worship as they choose to and follow whichever path they choose.

What I do object to is having someone else tell me what I should believe and claiming that, unless I accept their map of reality as my own, I'm damned to burn for all eternity in the pits of hell! It infuriates me that even on a site like this, a site populated in the main by people who, through their own experience, know that 'reality' is not singular, these dogmatic bigots can still create conflict by forcing their beliefs on the rest of us.

If you choose to map a Judeo-Christian belief system over a psychedelic experience, so be it but don't expect other people to just agree with you. It's narrow-minded, downright ignorant and you are only ever fighting a losing battle. We are all individuals and if this anthropomorphised version of 'God' really does exist then I'm sure he/she would be far happier that their creations had developed the ability to think for themselves and use these faculties to the best of their abilities, rather than accept second-hand information which has been twisted and perverted through centuries by people with less than honourable intentions.

I would stay here and argue the case forever but I know that it would serve no purpose. I have my beliefs, you have yours as does everyone else. This is not a forum for discussing the pros and cons of Christianity, Islam, Judaism or whatever else and arguments like the one started on here do nothing to help anyone. Why don't the pro-Christianity zealots take their arguments to a fundamentalist website and see how well their views fare to that audience....

In closing I say this.....Get fucked.

There is no external salvation, only you can save yourself. You cheapen yourself by not seeing the mythic threads that run through all our lives. Jesus is not up in the clouds ready to swoop down in his super man cape and fight the bad guys away. Salvation and saviors are myths, tools of consciousness through which we can transcend and combat the "demonic" forces of this universe.

The Hell extolled by Biblical Prophecies is a tool of manipulation and deception in and of itself. The fear of the Devil is another such tool. These beings/places were brought out of the mythic/metaphoric realm and into this world by political/economic businesses (THE CHURCH) to allow them to manipulate and control the masses. This heaven hell dichotomy is a vast oversimplification of a world which IS NOT so easily deconstructed. Any glimpse beyond the veil reveals that the dualistic framework is a vast oversimplification of the immensely intertwined nature of reality.

ps. Nothing is more misanthropic and unappreciative of the miracles of consciousness and the universe than the monotheistic traditions which endlessly extol the horrors of humanity, the sins of the flesh, and the inevitable escape to some "better place".

The ego is in constant reverence of the animus until the person realises that they are one.

Christianity is not a bad path to go down...so long as you can understand what is being communicated through the texts and pay less attention to patriarchal traditions imposed by an imperial state a few centuries shy of two thousand years ago. A little bit of spice and a little bit of Carl G. Jung wouldn't go amiss here.