hahahahahaaha - "Except druggies won't organize and kill people like religious folks. "

When trying to post experience often the closest we can come to expressing what happened is using analogies to describe the indescribable.
And whats so wrong with majical thinking - its benefitted me well enough.

IMO psychedelics should be used with great caution, and could be quite dangerous for susceptible individuals. However this post mostly looks like a bull###t rant by a "holier than thou" born-again type, and is not really worthy of discussion. If anything the OP merely presents a "straw man" argument.

Native South American shamans are drug-crazed psychopaths? Really? Statements like these make it hard to take the OP's writing seriously. They also bespeak an ignorance about Native American religious traditions and the very meaning of words like "psychopath."

I agree the language some people use in their attempts at describing psychedelic experiences can come off as utter nonsense to others who have not had similar experiences. Just because you can't understand the meaning of something, though, is not cause to hate it.

Lastly, OP's comparison between datura and DMT is way off base. In order to be that misinformed, s/he must have never even bothered to research either DMT or datura & just began writing with the assumption that they knew everything.

Franky I wonder why the OP even bothered to write that post. What forum was it posted in? Maybe s/he was trying to preach to the heathens, perhaps?

Yet alcohol is still legal.
End of argument.

well....i bet it was "burnt" who posted undercover in that forum.



what did you say...i was just distracted by some funny youtube clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XREnvJRkif0



ok.ok.
i admit it was me who posted the statement that dmt is the most dangerous psychedelic substance of the universe.



don't trust in my words.
i am just a crazy malign clown making some redundant jokes.



unfortunately.



cut.



i liked travelers comment...here it's once again:
very wise words!

yo like, 1 moving picture is enough, considering they're all the same picture.

I don't know if you are directing these thoughts towards me, because I DID NOT write that.

I copied it from another forum I'm a part of, and it had a pretty big discussion there but I was wondering what you people would think.

I love my dimitri



http://www.shroomery.org...wflat.php/Number/8319304

^link to the discussion on The Shroomery (now with 7 pages of replies!)

THe only reason I posted this was to see how you felt about what was said.

I was under the impression we were just discussing what you shared.

I believe there is one very strong commonality that unites us.

Am I correct in my understanding, after a brief perusal of the shroomery thread, that the article in question was composed as a straw-man from the beginning as a test of attitude?

Not that it makes a difference, except towards the reader's reaction.

That was made very clear in the opening post.

I’m surprised that post didn’t get a more heated response from users here.

I think most people just don’t take it seriously. The original post makes the quoted poster look like an idiot quite frankly. But a dangerous idiot. It reminds me so much of religious fanatics and their views of other religious beliefs. So many people have died because of such ignorant people.

The “Spanish Inquisition” is a good example of just how dangerous this type of thinking can be. They killed thousands who did not convert to their belief system.

If DMT gives people visions and the shamans use their visions as the basis of their religious belief system, it’s not any less valid of a religion than any other religion. And in many ways, it’s more valid. At least they actually perceive their Gods. Many religious people never ever see their Gods, and just believe that they are there because someone told them that they are there, just like children believing in Santa Claus.

What’s worse, the Pope believing God talks to him or a Shaman seeing his God in a vision? Really, it comes down to that. Millions follow the Pope and believe he actually has contact with God, even though there isn’t a shred of evidence. A shaman can give you his ayahuasca and you can actually SEE his Gods with your own eyes. You can’t see the Pope’s God. So which is more valid?

seconded

moreover: ridicolous text from start to finish.

yep:
we have ONE thing in common.
we all see the world divided.
people are divided.
the brainhemispheres are divided.
the world is divided.
i suggest to call this state of mind:
SCHIZOPHRENIA

but there is some healing power, my beloved friends.
sing this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5UAzlAOjoI

what the deuce?

Well that initial post was always bound to cause controversy. I must say that i didn't actually read the whole thing as i got too frustrated half way through.

This is ur typical argument against any hallucinogenic and i agree that if anyone agrees with the information then they are the people who shouldn't be taking the drugs.

Well first of all I wasn't the author of that article on whatever board it was posted on so don't falsely accuse Gosvami.

But personally I think DMT can make people (not everyone) hella deluded

Hahahaha here we go:

When I hear someone say is DMT dangerous for your mind two questions come to mind. Physical damage? Psychological damage? Physical damage I don't think really is the problem here.

Psychological damage is what I find more interesting and I think a lot of people over look this part of the psychedelic experience in general. Partially because "psychological damage" is often ill defined.

The first area however that I would differ with the original poster is that shamanism and DMT and psychedelic effects and or after effects do not resemble classical psychosis. In a couple of ways which I won't completely detail. One way however is that classical psychosis often involves deep social reclusion. Most dmt users and psychedelic users are not secluded and anti social in the way that someone with schizophrenia is. They also don't hear voices or experience delusions when they are sober which is of course a major difference. DMT doesn't often precipitate this kind of psychosis and in that sense its not dangerous psychologically unless an individual is prone to such delusions / schizophrenia. Which also goes for any psychedelic.

So what do I consider psychological 'damage' that could come from psychedelic drug use. Lets make a short list and a short comment.

1) Running away from society. This happens often with people. They finally wake up to societies BS by taking acid or dmt or whatever. They freak out. They run away. They drop out of school they quite their jobs they go dance around in a commune for a few years until they accidentely get pregnant and realize oh shit I gotta feed my kid. This is a realistic danger. It can seriously interfere with the development of an individual especially younger people. I can think of many people in my life who have done this and now suffer either financially or psychologically because of it. There are problems with society and there always will be. But part of being a mature person is realizing that one person can't change all that by running away. The 60's failed for this reason.

2) Believing in things that are dangerous to the self. This should be rather obvious. Some people wind up thinking they are the Messiah or some other garbage and kill themselves. Believing you can fly and jump out a window. I don't think DMT does this so much though because its so short. I've yet to hear of cases of suicide related to DMT use. Although I am sure if more and more people use it this will happen. It always happens. It might have already happened I don't know.

3) False belief systems that can grow from these experiences. This is probably the most controversial thing I will say. In a way this is like religion. DMT can become your religion if you want it to. Its so perfect for that. The entire psychedelic experience is. If you base your entire life on the belief system you invent while high on dmt you may later in life become very disappointed when you see its not real. I view all religion this way. You may consider me biased but I think religion is a horrible thing and we need to move past it. I worry that psychedelic experiences may become a religion of the future and end up in a brave new world scenario. Maybe thats what Huxley was hinting towards I dunno.

My advice: Don't take it too seriously. Your taking powerful drugs. No matter what you experience it might not be real it might all be in your head. No one really knows whats going on with these substances so don't jump to rash conclusions because you just tripped your nuts off and spoke to some elves who told you to "get ready for their arrival" or whatever sillyness comes out of this kind of exploration.

I also want you all to know that I am not coming at this from an angle of oppression or repression of these experiences. For me personally they have been the defining experiences of my life. I have learned a GREAT deal from the psychedelic experience. But to pretend like there is no such thing as an "acid casualty" or a "dmt casualty" is not realistic and to tell this to young people is also down right dangerous. NO SUBSTANCE IS PERFECT NO DRUG EXPERIENCE CAN REPLACE YOUR MIND AND YOUR RATIONAL SELF!!!

Well since spirituality can't be found using the psychedelics, what exactly does it teach YOU?

That's not correct. It most definitely can.

SWIM was an atheist for many years until an ayahuasca experience got him back in touch with God. He is now a very strong believer in God, more so than when he attended church many years ago. Church really put him off and separated him from God. The lies being taught in church are amazing. It’s a bunch of mind control and has little to do with God. God made the psychedelic plants. God did not make the church. Church was made by man to basically rob mankind of experiencing God by instead having mankind be preached to by another man. It’s best to talk directly with God, and not through the warped mind of a preacher who’s interpretations of God’s words are inaccurate. Only God can speak for God. No man can speak for God.

If you want to speak with God, get a direct link. God is there waiting for you. You don’t need church, you don’t even need psychedelics, you just need an open heart and a willingness to see God.

If you go to God with demands and such, you will not find God. If you seek God out of love, you will find God.

The church cannot find God for you. Neither can psychedelics. Both can be an aid, but only if you are spiritually ready for it. God will be hidden from you until the time is right.

If you want a true spiritual experience, go out and seek God however you choose to do it. Psychedelics can be a fast track to it, but even then, your intentions need to be pure or you’ll find something other than God.

I want to remind everyone again that Jesus was killed because he did not go along with the all powerful church of his time. He saw the church for what it was, complained and wanted it fixed, and was then killed. So, church can be a very evil thing.

This is one reason Jesus said for you to pray in the closet, Mt.6:6: "And when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to the Father which is in secret"

You guys get that? Jesus is saying that your connection with God is a personal thing and doesn’t belong in the church! That’s a very powerful statement and goes against pretty much all current church activities!

This post is a little off topic, but I want to post it here in response to the religious aspects of a few of the posts above.

What turned me off to religion is that I actually read the bible. Many people just sort of glance at it and don’t really understand what they were reading. Once you read all the things Jesus says in the Bible, you really get a very different picture of who Jesus was. Jesus was a fantastic guy. He had ideas that were amazing for his time and he tried hard to change the world for the better. He succeeded actually. A lot of things are better after Jesus made his mark on the world. He opened up people’s minds to the horrible injustices that were done to mankind by mankind and offered a new better path for people to follow.

It’s unfortunate that many churches who preach in the name of Jesus don’t actually follow Jesus’ words accurately. If they did, they would have a far better impact on our planet. Too often they do the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. I can’t stand that. If you’re going to have a church in the name of Jesus you should follow his teachings properly!

I actually got more out of the Bible reading it as an atheist than I did reading it in church! If you read the Bible as if it’s a history book, you can really gain a lot from it. I think out of all that’s there, the teachings of Jesus are the most important, most beneficial part.

Whether you believe Jesus is God, the son of God, or just a man, what Jesus teaches is fantastic material. I highly recommend reading the Bible as a history book, away from the church so that you can read what it actually says and not what a preacher wants you to read. Read it with a clear mind without preconceived ideas of who Jesus was. I think pretty much anyone will come to the conclusion that Jesus was fantastic.

Now with that said, I strongly believe in God, but I am NOT a Christian. I do NOT attend church. I do not believe Jesus was anything more than a man; however he was a fantastic human being who saw great things for mankind and made a huge positive impact on the world. For that reason, I love who Jesus was. If I ever get the chance to meet the spirit of Jesus, I would thank him personally for changing the world.

What does this have to do with this subject? Well, it was psychedelics that got SWIM back in touch with God, while the church made SWIM an atheist. Now SWIM can read the bible and see it for what it really is. Now he can appreciate Jesus in a way he could never have before. Once you get beyond the teachings of the people in church and see for yourself what it’s all about, your level of spirituality can sky rocket!

Swim also talked to a beeing who told him that he was god. It was like a very masculine father figure, a girlfriend and a friend at the same time. He was full of love and told Swim what the wrath of God really means:

It's basically the force of love that washes away all the bad things ("sins". That gave swim a clue. Lots of words are misunderstood. Swim feels, that the bible got a totally different meaning than the meaning percieved. Only a personal talk with him can dechiffre religious scripture of any kind.

Here's the post:

http://www.dmt-nexus.me/....aspx?g=posts&t=6579

You can't think of any non-spiritual/supernatural benefits to psychedelic drug use?



There are religions who say pretty much this in a nutshell. They must assume that what they experience of "god" or what they think of "god" is true but clearly it doesn't need to be. And honestly ron and any others who share this idea of god, I don't care what you experienced. All your arguments about god this and god that are just as worthless and baseless as anyone else's. The "I know its true because I experienced it" argument is not proof or confirmation of anything. Neither is "I don't need proof I have faith".

If you want to challenge that statement be my guest.



I don't think this is an accurate statement at all. Much of what is written in the Bible about Jesus and what he did was written down quite some time after he lived. I think the scripture is about 100 years older or more in some cases. The biblical history of Jesus is riddled with inaccuracy.

Regardless I don't think everything Jesus said was all that moral anyway. But that's beside the point I guess. I can spend all day digging up statements that I think are not ethical but I don't think thats the point here.

The point I am making is its easy to take the good parts of any religious person or figures teaching and throw out the bad ones. Most religious people do this.



I'd say it is fortunate that people pick and choose what they want to hear from any religious leader Jesus included. Like I said immoral statements come from them ALL! Although I think people should go the extra step and kick the whole damn book into the bucket.



For SWIM it was psychedelics that finally smashed the belief and in some cases the need to believe in any sort of God.

Ron, the point you made earlier about being a first-hand witness makes the big difference to me between religion and the psychedelic experience. It's the difference between blind belief and direct experience. Organized religion doesn't usually doesn't like direct experience because it threatens their position of power. That's why I don't like organized religion

The OP even got the facts wrong: during a heavy Datura delirium (to be avoided at all cost) you completely forget you took a drug. How silly to compare the two... I can't take that post seriously but unfortunately, at least 90% of humanity thinks along those lines... which is why it's illegal and the Inquisition still rules

edit: some good points Burnt I doubt the person Jesus ever existed, there were plenty of Messiases in those days. The essence to me is to love/treat others as I would love/treat myself - a hard task: first I have to learn to really love myself and treat myself well