Cite a credible source?

http://www.vivo.colostat...e/otherendo/pineal.html

About tryptamines. Not sure if that is what you asked,
but as a side-note. Last night after i dreamed for 2 hours i woke up with a lot of different colours in my CEV and felt a big pressure in the middle of my brain. I also heared a high-pitched tone and felt the sensation of "air" leaking out of the top of my head.

Yer...WTF! Crazy world we live in.

I have only traveled using DMT about 10 times.
When i say, i am able to beam stuff out of my third eye...I do not mean physically.
One time while travelling, i went somewhere crazy, this human in shape person was showing me around the matrix, i was following, he/she/it pulled the fabric of the fractal light layer, and what was revealed stunned me, it was the reality we all live in, everything was as if my eyes were open, but they were closed, i went to a contruction site where men were working and i used my third eye to pulse these weird shapes out of my head and they started attaching to the men at work. Hard to explain unless experienced.

While I'm not directing this at any particular individual, as Uncle Knucles has already requested, could we have some real scientific data refs. to back up these wacky metaphysical theories that certain members keep coming up with?

Science has been proven wrong too many times, its beyond me why people use main stream media to look for answers when all the answers you could ever want are within yourself.

Jav, I love you so hard.

Oh, so you are suggesting every breakthrough in modern science comes from within ourselves? Or that it could have? In other words, it is not necessary to perform experiments and investigations to gain knowledge of the world? We need just look within? I hope you see the absurdity of this statement, because it's just some vague arbitrary nonsense.

The "science have been proven wrong before" argument is almost just as worn out and meaningless. Furthermore, when making claims about the function of physical systems, it is totally appropriate to ask for credible sources. If not, anyone could have claimed anything.

Well your answers for yourself, would surely be different than my answers for myself. That's all good and well, I'm not disputing the purely spiritual aspects of the mind, all that's entirely out of bounds to science ( for the moment). However the functioning of the human body, the endocrine and central nervous system etc etc. are quite definitely the domain of science ( scientific extracts are not mainstream media by the way ) Therefore when someone starts talking about the pineal glands function, what trace amines are manufactured therein, their ultimate function and so on, then goes on to combine these assumptions with the metaphysical, the more criticaly minded will want to have some credible data that at least backs up what can and has been so far measured/ proven. ( in empirical medical research extracts)

Peace

Perhaps you should take the time to do a little research. The fact that the pineal gland makes indole type molecules is not only well known, but you could have found this info yourself on wikipedia in less time than it took you to question the data. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineal_gland

For those of you who claim to be scientifically oriented, it is rather embarrassing that you don't know as much about the endocrine system as us supposedly wacky mystics.

The main function of the pineal gland as we know it now is to manufacture serotonin and melatonin. (It does way more than that, but this is basic stuff.) Serotonin is 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT).

No exotic studies or research needed. Just a simple google would tell you that I was giving you well established factual information. If you understand chemistry, than you will know that a key feature of the tryptamines is the indole ring. Furthermore, all the necessary components for the manufacture of DMT have been found in spades in the pineal gland.

The fact that we have not proven that DMT is also made there (we only know that it is present in trace amounts in every human being, but not exactly where it is produced) could be a factor of the people that have been tested not having very active pineal glands... perhaps if we tested yogis rather than undergrads who need an extra 20 bucks, we might find proof of DMT manufacture in the pineal. As far as I know, no studies have been done testing for DMT creation in the pineal during REM sleep either.

Still... it is proven beyond reproach that the pineal gland makes tryptamines.

Posts like this are counter productive, and snide. There was already another link posted above showing that tryptamines are produced in the pineal.

Maybe instead of calling metaphysical theories wacky, and tossing not-so veiled aspersions at people who (it seems) might be at least somewhat more versed in the current science of endocrinology, organic chemistry, and tryptamine research than you are... you could simply admit that you don't know anything about this and let those of us who do fill you in.

Lastly, many of us here who express mystical or metaphysical understandings are not coming to these ideas out of the blue or from an avid readership of new-age claptrap. Most of us have had very lengthy and intensive experiences which led us to these conceptions. As someone who has had the experience of getting ridiculously high from stimulating his own pineal gland, this is not mere conjecture on my part... but the sharing of anecdotal subjective data.

Hyperspace Fool:

You miss one point that renders the likelihood of DMT being produced inside the pineal gland a lot lower: There is, you see, one essential enzyme missing in order to make DMT here, namely tryptamine-n-methyltransferase. This is the last step in production of DMT from tryptamine, but it misses.

Edit: Furthermore, I do not think that Art reacted on the tryptamine production part, but the rather incredible claim of yours that when people get really high the pineal gland pulses and throbs. This needs references, as I have never heard of this before except from new-agers and mystics.

The post I was responding to from Arcanum (odd name for a guy who denigrates mystics) clearly doubted the tryptamine production of the pineal gland.

What Art meant, he can clarify for himself.

As for the pineal gland throbbing, there are references to it all over these forums here. Simply do a search, and sit back for a long evening of reading.

All of the people talking about this are not new-agers or mystics. This is actually a fairly widely reported phenomenon not just among psychonauts, but also among practitioners of internal arts systems like pranayama, chi kung and the like. Many people describe this experience in their deepest meditations, and the vedas describe this phenomenon in detail.

Come to think of it Citta is a rather odd name for a guy who would toss aside reports of pineal glands throbbing... even if they came from new-agers and mystics. As a Buddhist term, I would guess you have some affinity for Buddhism? Buddhist sutras are filled with references to third eye useage and have lots of data about pulsing and throbbing. Furthermore, Buddhism was started by a mystic and nearly all of its major figures could be classified as mystics... not to mention that majority of Buddhists in the west could easily be considered "new agers."

(I see you changed your avatar... This guy is considerably less disturbing.)

Anyway, the missing enzyme is not a valid argument against the potential production of DMT by the pineal gland... especially in light of the fact that there is nowhere else in the body that is even a close second choice for an explanation. All that this says is that the people (a rather paltry number) who have been tested who weren't producing DMT in their pineal glands at the time... had all the ingredients save one. Perhaps, if we ever manage to test someone's pineal gland while it is making DMT, we might find that tryptamine-n-methyltransferase is produced elsewhere in the body and makes its way there.

Regardless, the fact is that DMT is produced in the human body. I was clear in saying that we don't have proof that the pineal is where it is produced. But, if you know of another place in the human body that is more likely to be the source... please elaborate. Actually, you should go ahead and write a paper on it, as there are literally thousands of people waiting for this information.

Message for "Hyperspace Fool"
You one angry man! ( truths do tend to bite home)
And I find your name most fitting for you.

Peace to you brother.

Just because something sounds impossible doesn't mean it is.

I've experienced precognition many times, have caused a pill to vibrate on the table, and rotated a piece of foil on a string hanging from the ceiling clockwise/counterclockwise, all in the presence of friends who also saw it happen. Sounds impossible, and I know I can't convince you, but it's true.

I believe anyone can do these types of things but, as with musical ability, comes easier to some than others. Faith and available energy are both factors too.

I saw no anger in his posts, perhaps you are projecting?

Also, this post could be considered a personal attack. Have you read the Attitude?

I can't remember if it's the Disney cartoon version of Peter Pan or some other cartoon, but do you guys remember when Tinkerbell tells the kids watching the screen that for her magic to work that the kids must say, and really mean it, that they believe in fairies? Do any of you remember doing this as a kid?

Bear with me now, but what if, for the sake of discussion, that to truly experience the mystical properties of hyperspace you have to be open to believing it as a truth and not a hallucination? What if telepathy and psychokinesis are actual phenomenon, but to experience them personally you have to already believe they exist? What if the only reason they ever faded from widespread use was the fact that people became more and more concerned with physical survival and started to only focus on the physical and discount everything else?

This is of course wild speculation but it runs the same vein as 'the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence'. What if it's a vicious circle for the rationalist? Since a scientific rationalist sees no evidence for something like clairvoyance he automatically has a pre-disposition to refute claims of such events as merely an overactive imagination or psychosis. When someone who has experienced it themselves (as I and many others claim to have done) and tries to explain the event, the rationalist decries the phenomenon as a simple hallucination; something that could not possibly be real and should be rejected until the phenomenon can be verifiablly repeated. However, what if two 'believers' (for lack of a better term) were in a room with the rationalist and could have an entire mental conversation without the rationalist even realizing it. What if in order to experience these paranormal events you must 'let your guard down' and allow the belief in such supernatural activities? What if this was a requirement to achieving these states? Wouldn't such a requirement be a perfect means to keep out those who were less sincere about seeking such things? What if EVERYTHING is possible but the bigger the 'impossibility' (from our perspective) is the more 'sureness' you need to have of the impossible actually happening?

Forgive me if that jargon made no sense, I haven't had my morning cup of coffee yet today lol. What I'm basically saying is what if, just as wild speculation, a miracle can't happen to those who don't believe they can happen? What if that's how powerful your mind is?

(PS. No need to tell me how unscientific this post is I'm well aware and I try not to post ideas like this too often as I do indeed love our sciences, however there was just no way to make this idea sound appropriate without delving into the irrational world of speculation)

I think we're stuck in this dead end street with the back and forth between the self-proclaimed scientists and the self-proclaimed mystics; one side demanding the "proof" in some published journal or whatever, the other side relying more on faith and personal experience. What seems to be seriously lacking is a working together of science and spirit. One can only go so far without the other. Imagine the great new technologies we could create by working together instead of getting stuck at the automatic wall that goes up when you're stuck firmly in one camp and refuse to see what the other camp is doing. Why not do a more thorough pineal gland study to include advanced yogis and all that? Well, no money for that kind of research . . . bummer.

But you get the idea. Or not.

I think the 'irrationalists' in the posts above should be thankfull for having the rationalists here.
Because of them, the irrationalists can join and fight the windmills of rationality toghether, defending irrationalism as a whole and thus their own personal beliefs.

Without rationalism to focus on, the irrationalists would only have other irrationalists to talk to, wich would innevitably lead them to the realisation that the disagreemants in between the irrationalists are at least as large as the disagreements between the groups of rationalists and irrationalists.

Hi all! Hi Hyperspace Fool, it’s always a pleasure to read your posts – no matter what others may say

The reason I am writing in this thread: DMT, it seems, has opened my “third eye”. I am not talking about my audio-mental-telepathic communication with the “other side”, this strange ‘inner voice’ I have started hearing and conversing with as a result of my work with DMT.

Instead, I am speaking about a very visual thing: if I concentrate on it, I can see a spinning, whirling, pulsating tunnel-like stuff coming from and going to the center of my forehead. When I concentrate on this tunnel while sober: it’s barely visible. However, when I am on marijuana, this tunnel becomes very bright, clear and colorful. Almost like a (predominantly red) laser light. The density of light is highest at the core of my forehead en becomes more diffuse as the distance from my head increases, until it fades away in the surroundings, becoming practically invisible a few meters away from my head.

In the same time, this laser light tunnel seems not only to end, but also to originate a few meters away from me and then going to the center of my forehead, reaching it’s highest concentration just before entering my head. At this point I am not sure about how this tunnel vision works and where it’s coming from, but I have witnessed this tunnel on many different occasions in the past 1.5 year or so to know it’s real. At least real enough for my brain

Of course, I am not forcing any interpretations or conclusions on anyone – everybody is free to choose what to believe. But I can vouch for what I witnessed: DMT facilitated some kind of change in my brains neuronal networks, which resulted in me feeling, hearing en seeing things I couldn’t have imagined to ever experience before I started my DMT enhanced spiritual journey.

With kind regards and unconditional love,

AstraLex.