You can check phalaris way of the future thread for separation of gramine but I don't separate anything I just use wide spectrum solvents like chloroform and dichloromethane to pull everything in there. I don't recommend it but so far it works for me. I don't know about separating 5 Meo from DMT. I also don't feel the need to.

Update: just tried the nasal spray and it wored beautifully. Effects lasted for about an hour or so. About 3 mg extract dissolved in citric acid 0.5ml sprayed it into my nose using an allergy nasal spray bottle. It was a nice mellow and sensual experience. Gradual come up no discomfort no nausea and very little heart rate Increase. Love it! Could feel a bit of sting in my nose and it got warm inside but nothing uncomfortable. Nothing dripped out of my nose or to the back of my throat it was just right.

Progress progress!

..thanks for the interesting report

Sidisheikh.mehriz wrote:

..back in the early wave of Phalaris experimentation in the first half of the 90s, and the early Entheogen Review era etc, some people said that 5-meo was ‘the Power’ and DMT was ‘the Glory’ …together they were the ultimate state, beyond what either tryptamine could do on their own…in an era where some people seem focused on expounding one or the other, i hope some will ponder that perspective..

Phalaris was the one of the few species where there was a good chance of finding the combination

re Tomtegubbe's question..as was said there’s a lot of discussion on this in the phalaris=the way of the future thread..additionally, some concluded that in the amounts likely to be present, if present, it would not present a problem..there’s been no indication after this many years so far of phalaris bio-assays of a gramine issue…

tests would certainly be beneficial and revealing

It's just what I've read that 5-Meo-DMT is incompatible with MAOI, so if phalaris would be your only source of DMT, making an ayahuasca analogue using it might be a bad idea from what I gather.

..that is also a very good point! Tontegubbe
you're right 5meo should not be mixed with MAOIs...this can be dangerous
the reason for trying to get people to test and then clone strains they find is so as to be able to have the option of, just or mainly DMT (which exist), or a more relaxing NMT etc combination, or the above fabled (vaporised) combination...and some strains are predominantly 5meo..it's the possible range that gives Phalaris research quite a scope..the moderate oral activity of 5meo also adds possibilities...but yes I should have added that fable with a caution, especially as this in in the Ayahuasca section

I have also been intrigued by the synergy of 5 and n,n. For some time I assumed phragmites was giving that, but later, (hopefully to be confirmed with analysis), I revised my guess to 5 MeO NMT and DMT, along with bufotenine. 5 MeO DMT which I know from Phalaris aquatica appears more imposing and heavy, whereas phragmites is light and tranquil.

There are infinite possibilities in these tryptamine combinations, and the grass of the world may be providing a practically infinite palette. Finding the workable strains is the work, as nen has been saying...

Congratulations on your progress Sidhi.

Thanks Dithy. I think my relationship with this aquatica is starting to mature. Nen what do you think about using a foliar spray tryptophan HCl amino acid solution for higher yields?

While I haven't got tryptophan yet I have used a feed supplement based on autolyzed brewing yeast saccharomyces cervisia today that's high in tryptophan.

After using silicon rich kelp based biostimulant I noticed that leaves are sturdier and has a more rough texture to them. They no longer bend under their weight they just shoot straight up like agave leaves just like thorns. when cutting leaves with a scissor I can hear that crunchy sounds like cutting a sand paper.

Sidisheikh.mehriz...you're definitely forming a growing and 'shamanic' relationship with the plant! also the method of ingestion you've developed is very interesting indeed...

Re foliar tryptophan fertilization, I've not tried that, but I'm generally not a fan of foliar spray fertilizer on any plant that may be ingested in concentrated amounts, or smoked..also i don't know enough about Phalaris ph preferences to comment on hcl administration.. root/soil application of nitrogen can significantly boost alkaloids in a number of species, that much i know.. different species within the same genus can have different pH requirements
..keep up the excellent work..taking Phalaris into future ways..keep us posted

There were some very strong experiences with vaporised Phalaris extracts which contained a fair amount of 5meo along with dmt in the 90s...

and thanks dithyramb for that further perspective..yes the worlds of synergies in these plants is vast..often, when people become used to a multi-alkaloid mix plant character, they miss that when encountering a more single alkaloid experience..
the many worlds of Phalaris..

Yes the intranasal route is one step closer to try the extract orally. Least we can exclude the notion of toxins in the extract being destroyed by heat when smoking. Whatever is the chemical make up of the extract it's safe without applying heat.

Maybe next harvest I can try drinking the tea without an MAOI. I tried phalaris truncata orally on its own and it was active.

I scrolled through a number of forliar biostimulant brands and most of them are in the pH range 10 to 12. Seems like alkaline solution is the way to go for foliar applications.

What I like about foliar application is that the effects are instant unlike root uptake which can take a few days to bring effects.

Leaves of course are less efficient at taking up nutrients so re-application is necessary. The silver bullet would be a soil and folliar application at once.. one brings instant effect and the other sustain a steady uptake of nutrients.

Besides Instant uptake foliar application sometimes is the only way to supply certain macro nutrients like zinc, manganese, copper , and iron that otherwise would react with soil to become chemically bound . These reactions depends on soil chemical make up and pH. You can skip all that by directly applying it to leaves.

To be sure you are providing those macronutrient to roots those minerals has to be chelated by EDTA or as the glycinate salts which are more expensive.

You didn't tell me about your truncata only oral experience, sidhi. How was it active for you? Truncata is the only species which I drank orally on its own, I believe I have written about it in this thread. Truncata is the phalaris species which I felt the most significant solid, compelling spiritual connection to as a live plant. I felt so much love from it's aura, and even experienced a synchronicity in which I came across a patch exactly where I felt like drinking it with rue for the first time in the woods, in an area which I hadn't seen any other patch. That experience with rue, although being clouded, made me feel very good and full of love in the afterglow. I don't remember how I decided to drink it alone, but the general feeling of connection must have lead to it. I also remember a very strong connection from inhaling the steams as it was boiling; it had such a "pachamama" vibe and made me ecstatic and pushed me to sing. Alone orally, truncata for me was a very gentle, loving, guiding spirit with no flashy tryptamine effect. You know, having powerful alkaloids is one thing, but not all such plants possess a powerful spirit that reaches out to humans and wants to work with them. For me, Datura stramonium is one such plant, and so is Phalaris truncata. For sure it has its proper way to unlock it's power fully. However, Phalaris aquatica, being such a crazy potent cocktail of tryptamines and other alkaloids should be more obviously psychedelic orally on its own. It's a shame that this has not been explored so far.

Edit: the truncata experiences I had felt more like a modulated 5 MeO DMT experience than n,n DMT. In late fall, the young grass was crazy potent with 5 MeO DMT and gave me a physically dangerous experience with rue. This was my only experience of this species harvested at a time other than the spring flowering phase. Truncata's spirit is about love... Brachystachys about truth.

I did mention oral truncata on its own a few times on this thread. I preferred it on its own better than with rue actually.

When I tried it alone or was already flowering and some panicles where already drying up. It was so huge.

What pulled me into truncata was the silvery very thin and compact panicles.. they look all shiny and bright waving above other grasses from a distance calling up for me. They're just beautiful.

This was at least 4 years ago. It was a couple handfuls of leaves cooked with some venaigre. Drank it all at once one night in late spring. For over 30 mins pretty much nothing.. then i started getting a really nice body high .. it felt really good. A good kind of stimulation that felt pleasurable. This all out me in a nice vibe for about 40 mins or so then it subsided. Mentally not much was happening. I could almost say it felt close to low dose aquatica extract Intranasally but can't be 100% sure as it's been a really long time.

I need to try it again.

"I preferred it on its own better than with rue actually."

For me the truncata by itself experience was also cleaner and more meaningful. It may as well be that truncata and also aquatica are not meant to be mixed with rue. Just perhaps.

The young fall leaves with rue experience was very unpleasant (to the point of feeling a kind of neural damage) and meaningless, and the spring leaves experiences with rue always have a "cloudedness." It really seems there are things in it that become unhealthy when combined with rue.

I can't chalk off truncata with rue yet when it was a major component (~50%) of the tea with brachystachys (~40%) and paradoxa (~10%) with rue on which i had the most meaningful journey.

Even if truncata alone with rue isn't good truncata as a major component of a phalaris species cocktail synergize amazingly well.

Either that or my two truncata batches were completely different. Different phalaris species and strains can feel as different as say Cactus to acacia.

As far as my experience goes no phalaris species was completely inactive except for commercial canariensis. It's frustrating how slow this research has been progressing. Look how many years it took us to reach where we are now with phalaris.

During the early 90's this project was taking big leaps until gramine thing and mimosa derailed it off it's course..

I cannot over emphasis the contribution and bravery of our nexian members to debunk the gramine and low yeild myths.

this one of if not the most interesting ethnobotanical threads on the nexus

3 days ago I brewed 10g fresh leaves from my phalaris aquatica clone from a single plant growing in full shade. I drank the brew 30 mins after a brew from 3g rue (cooked only once for 1h)

Experience lasted for 4 hours in total and came in increasingly stronger waves until I peaked at around the end of the second hour.

I broke through during the peak and had a conversation with God.

I initially thought I underdosed on the rue since I perceived only threshold effects from it. I just felt calm and relaxed. The rue tea didn't taste any more bitter than a strong cup of coffee, actually it was easy to drink and brought no nausea at all just a nice soothing effect. After 30 mins after drinking the rue I was already thinking to abandon the experiment with phalaris thinking I underdosed on the rue but decided to drink the tea from the 10g fresh aquatica anyway.

15 minutes in after drinking the aquatica I had visions of a wild cat purring and rubbing it's face against mine asking me to relax, explore and enjoy. There was some nature sound effects like I was out in the wilderness. Effects then started to subside.

I thought this is the end of the experience (it would make sense for such a small dose) but effects soon came back a bit stronger. It would then subside and come back again waves after waves and kept getting stronger until it was getting too strong for what I can handle comfortably. By this time I was hoping for the come down to arrive already but no it kept on peaking and peaking till I was getting panicky.

Heart beat was getting increasingly heavier with each psychedelic wave and I perceived some blood pressure. I had quiet some nausea with each of these waves. The more I resisted the break through the worse the nausea got until I peaked and met god and we had a full conversation. It was a questions and Answers sort of conversation. I spoke in words and he answered in unspoken thoughts. I was so exhausted from resisting the breakthrough until I surrendered myself to him and that's when I received his Infinite love and embrace. The journey from then on took a 180 degrees. No more nausea, no longer feeling any nausea neither any physical or emotional struggle, just felt wholesome and complete in total peace. For every question I had he had a comforting answer that left no doubt in my heart.

I realized that the nausea was induced by resisting rather than chemically Induced. It was a beautiful clean and wholesome experience except for a concerning attacks of high heart rate that came along with each of these psychedelic waves washing over me over and over till it left me so exhausted I couldn't put up a fight any longer

Am so glad now that I decided to only drink 10 go fresh leaves. It could have been wayyy crazier. There was hardly any visuals wether with closed or open eyes. Felt similar to smoking the extract from the same clone harvest except the peak was extended further more.

10g fresh! That's like 1~2g dry weight! that's more potent than any other tryptamine entheogen that I know of. This is also second regrowth and I left it to grow for over 4 weeks.

It doesn't seem to matter what phase of growth I harvest from, fertilized or not it just keeps on delivering. Either I have a stable constantly high yeilding cultivar or the shade makes it that consistent. To this day after a year and half of experimenting with this cultivar I never had a failing experiment.

Actually this year its been more potent since I started using foliar application of kelp based biostimulant.

I think we've been directing our effort in the wrong direction trying to eliminate gramine when we should have been focusing on a Tek that removes tyramine. Am almost confident that the increased heart rate and hypertension is caused by tyramine.

I will receive the LC-MS analysis results soon to confirm this. And I'm trying to acquire all the chemical standards for quantification analysis.

Stay tuned.

I have posted on phalaris the way of the future thread for directions on HPLC-MS any tips would be highly appreciated. We're still deciding on which analysis protocol to follow.

I'm thinking to use HPTLC instead of HPLC for lower cost and for the large number of samples available for analysis. I have 13 local wild accessions waiting for testing plus CV Sirocco , CV australis and working on collecting some brachystachys strains also.

Thanks for sharing here, sidhi. For the other readers: we in fact had a long personal exchange over this.

I just wanted to add that I personally am not convinced that 5 MeO DMT present in an oral brew with rue can be declared to be safe and feasible. No doubt that certain people can have certain experiences which seemingly don't leave any damage on them. But there are many points against it's use: 1) everybody's body and health is different and a certain medicine which puts a serious strain on the cardiovascular system is sure to be handled differently by everybody's bodies. 2) Somehow miscalculating the dosage is a risk factor leading to life or death for everybody, regardless of health status. 3) It has no record/tradition of use and even when one, two, or a few experiences appear to be fine for a subject, the effects of long term use is unknown.

How much of the heart strain is from tyramines, how much of it is from 5, is still an open question. You can keep going with your study, with utmost caution, if you like. It's just better not to make premature declarations.

To me it seems that oral 5 with maoi is bound to be an unpopular and taboo field, similar to tropane including plants. I would never recommend tropane plants to anybody, but I enjoy their health benefits in tiny doses - I don't seek "breakthrough" experiences with them - and that is my key in how they are safe for me, and most other people wouldn't make sense of the effects. When we are in the domain of big experiences, it is always best to remain in a prude, cautious stance when interfacing with the world.

All that said, I will share once again that there is something similar to 5 MeO DMT in phragmites but brings no energetic or cardiovascular heaviness at all, and is safe orally with rue. My best guess is that it is 5 MeO NMT (as it is supposedly noted from the Wassel paper which was the original discovery of DMT in phragmites). I value it very much.

We are waiting for your report on this aquatica orally by itself! Instead of trying to tweak it to be safe with rue, it just might be a perfect medicine all by itself... The tyramines are mao inhibitors after all.

May I add there was no increase in heart rate neither hypertension when I smoked an extract from an extraction from the same batch I drank from.

The hypertension was caused by the combination of aquatica with rue. Oral experiment with aquatica on it's own is coming soon.

..it may not be 5meo-dmt in the P. aquatica causing these effects..

I've seen hints that fresh aquatica may present problems..without very prolonged boiling and/or drying there could still be glycosides or even unknown volatile compounds..
i'd suggest dry material as the safest route (with any plant)..if the fresh aquatica without rue doesn't display the symptoms it could still be that something in the rue worsens interaction..dry would be the control to test a bit of this out

also (i haven't had time to try find the original report, but) one of Giorgio Samorini's colleagues in the 90s had similar concerning physical symptoms with fresh aquatica and rue..GCMS showed DMT as pretty much the only alkaloid in it..hence it was unexplained

to add to that, on the rue+phalaris combination - there can also be some betacarbolines..some of the less studied are unknown in their strength, effects and interaction with harmaline..and there are a lot of factors beyond alkaloids in plants..so yes careful testing and experimentation is crucial


interesting and vital work, look forward to further insights

I've been suggesting drying and simmering with no added acid... Perhaps sidhi will try it eventually. I believe there are other components in aquatica which give side effects for sure, but still 5 MeO DMT with rue is a controversial matter.

^.. definitely there have been some very negative or serious reactions to 5meo-dmt combined with Rue or other harmalas, and it's something to avoid

basically sidi's test with nasal spray is even more interesting if there's no 5meo in there..