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5A8R3
#1 Posted : 3/21/2019 2:17:48 PM
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I just had a 5 litre soup jar fail onto my floor.
Had to first jump in the shower, then run to the shop to buy vinegar.
My god the stench...
Need to now buy a new rug, towels and bed linen.

Lesson learned, put soup jars in backup buckets at all times and be extra careful stirring soup with a metal spoon.

If I were a suspiscious person I would be thinking something doesn't want me extracting. Last 2 attempts have failed to precipitate and now this disaster...

Sad

At least I managed to get a few pulls before it exploded over my floor so I can test the brand new freezer I bought specifically.
 

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DreadedShaman
#2 Posted : 3/21/2019 3:07:16 PM

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While attempting a mescal extraction I had a jar randomly (probably an over used jar + heat shock) that I took very much as something telling me to not extract (at least the way I was going about it)

In hindsight it was probably that I was pretty heavy into DMT at the time (having just gotten that down) that made me think it was such a sign. But who knows.
 
AcaciaConfusedYah
#3 Posted : 3/21/2019 5:27:17 PM

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Eek. Not fun. Yeah, I've had an overused jar pop before, too. I used to think that they were much more durable... but after many extractions, jars get weak.

Safety preperation was insufficient. You know this, now. I prefer to keep a solution of citric acid prepared when I extract... does not have the acetic acid smell. Also, smaller extractions did be advisable. 1 liter jars are sufficient for the kitchen explorer.

Suspicion aside - lessons have been learned.

For most, it's a matter of time and count. The more times you extract, the higher chances you have at encountering an issue. However, ratio plays a role. If you've extracted 100 times and one jar has popped, not bad - 1% of the extractions had a popped jar.

If your count is 4 and you're had 3 popped jars... something ain't workin' - 75% of the extractions have had issues. Let's assume that you continue to extract 96 more times, without any issue. So, now you only have 3% popped jars. Yea, 3% is much more desirable than 75%, but only the first 3 had issues. Maybe the batch of jars were defective when they left manufacturing and getting new jars solves the issue. Maybe there IS a spooky weirdness looming over all of us, constantly watching and judging in silence; just waiting for a DMT extraction to start so that it can push jars off counter tops of individuals that become too suspiscious... Lololol. I'm kidding (kinda).

Alright, this is taboo - but i'll risk it to pass the message. If you're selling - or mass "giving away" to "anyone that is a person," then i'd actually be more willing to put my guess on spooky looming weirdness, rather than accident. I have seen some people (in real life) TRY to sell... lololol. That tricky DMT always gives 'em a fuss! The spooky weirdness isn't a fan of unwarranted exploitation of magic. It thinks (of course it thinks! What do you think DMT is? A robot?? Laughing Laughing ) that people should have the opportunity if they work for it. It's happy to find a person once or twice through gifting.... but even gifting. It's like that whole "give a man a fish vs. teaching the man to fish."

To teach, you enjoy company with a friend, you share ideas and you learn from teaching. To give is very kind! But when you stop giving... people have expectations. Once you're no longer offering gifts, will those people learn to fish? In my experience: (I'll use ratios for simplicity) let's pretend I've given 150 mg of DMT to 10 people. 150 mg should offer at least 4-6 nice journeys - and that should give them the idea if they like DMT or not. Ok, so of those 10, only 5 of them smoke the DMT. The other 5 have it sitting in a drawer somewhere. Ok, so down to 50% of the staring. Of the 5 who vaped, 4 loved it and 1 had a terrible trip (hypothetically)... so of the original 10, only 4 find it interesting. So, they ask for more. "Sure!" I say, "what's your email address? I'll send you my documented experiments via PDF and let you have 50 grams of bark to extract on your own!"________"oh, I don't want to fo that. Can i just have some more?"______"....sure.... i'll send you a PDF and give you 50 grams of bark...." of the four people who tried it and liked it, 3 of them finally accept the PDF and the bark. 1 person actually DID the extraction and contacted me, thanking me. The other three? Lololol. After moving away, I came into town to visit. Two of them returned the unused bark and said, "you'll be able to do more good with this than me."

So, of the experiment, 10% actually applied information to become self sufficient. 50% were not interested enough to smoke it - only interested enough to ask for the opportunity, so that it sits in their sock drawer for 5 years (I'm not complaining about this 50%, at all they were the easier ones. If they never try it, I don't have to bother teaching. I don't mind teaching, but I do chemistry for a career. This site is "fun" for me. I don't have to be formal or hide who I REALLY am. So, I can loosely say things like "DMT thinks" and "looming spooky wierdness" without career repercussions. Cause I don't care if y'all think [know] that i'm crazy as hell. You are not signing a paycheck.)

It's the folks who want and want and want... without applying the knowledge offered in order to get what they want. Instead, they want it to be given (an expectation I accidentally set due to my personal "NO FUCKING SELLING DMT" rule.) So, i decided - give once for them to choose if they like it or not. And the rest is on them. If asked for more, then I, "don't have anymore, don't plan on extracting anytime soon, so it's on you." This is a good approach, IMO. Otherwise, you'll have folks grabbing at your ankles and they'll pull you down with em if they fall.


Long post. Sorry.

Take care!
ACY

Oy. I just noticed the metal spoon part. Please, no metal in the extreme alkaline conditions if possible. Some metals will corrode/dissolve. Get a glass stir-rod.
Sometimes it's good for a change. Other times it isn't.
 
5A8R3
#4 Posted : 3/21/2019 9:57:38 PM
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AcaciaConfusedYah wrote:

Oy. I just noticed the metal spoon part. Please, no metal in the extreme alkaline conditions if possible. Some metals will corrode/dissolve. Get a glass stir-rod.


I don't see a glass stir rod displacing enough fluid to mix efficiently :/ Stainless steel is not acceptable? I was thinking of buying a plastic spoon to avoid further breakages but I don't know what plastics are resistant to high concentration sodium hydroxide solution.

So how do you feel about the shamans charging money for ceremonies? Practically you should be paid for your work and you can do that work better than those who are asking you to do it.

I wish I hadn't dropped my chemistry A level now to be honest.

 
FranLover
#5 Posted : 3/21/2019 11:20:12 PM

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Damn bro Im sorry to hear that happened to you Sad Its only normal for things to fall and for us to knock something over or trip on something. If its of any comfort, I ruined like 20 PF jars (mushrooms) before I ever grew a succsesfull flush. Besides, one pull will rock your world...its so powerful. Take care!Very happy
Todo lo que quiero es que me recuerdes siempre así...amándote. Mantay kuna kayadidididi~~Ayahuasca shamudididi. Silence โ—‹ Shiva โ—‡ eternal Purusha.
What we have done is establish the rule of authority in silence. Silence is the administrator of the universe. In silence is the script of Natural Law, eternally guiding the destiny of everyone. The Joy of Giving โ™กSee the job. Do the job. Stay out of the misery.โ™ก
May this world be established with a sense of well-being and happiness. May all beings in all worlds be blessed with peace, contentment, and freedom.
This mass of stress visible in the here & now has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.
 
AcaciaConfusedYah
#6 Posted : 3/22/2019 1:35:47 AM

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5A8R3 wrote:
AcaciaConfusedYah wrote:

Oy. I just noticed the metal spoon part. Please, no metal in the extreme alkaline conditions if possible. Some metals will corrode/dissolve. Get a glass stir-rod.


I don't see a glass stir rod displacing enough fluid to mix efficiently :/ Stainless steel is not acceptable? I was thinking of buying a plastic spoon to avoid further breakages but I don't know what plastics are resistant to high concentration sodium hydroxide solution.

So how do you feel about the shamans charging money for ceremonies? Practically you should be paid for your work and you can do that work better than those who are asking you to do it.

I wish I hadn't dropped my chemistry A level now to be honest.




High quality stainless "should" be ok. I just prefer to avoid it if possible. I've seen stainless rust, before. It depends on the blend of metals used for the product.

I typically just toss a stir bar into the soup, add the solvent, cover the extraction vessel, flip a switch and come check on it as needed. I usually time extractions so that they don't demand my priority. They are mainly set-it-and-forget-it. If it stirs the solvent and aqueous layers for 24 hrs, no prob. If 1 week, no prob. Maybe its 2 hours. Just depends.

Longer contact time and increased surface area exposure will make a huge difference in the DMT that is yielded total and per pull.




As for a shaman ceremony - I guess it's fine if someone wants to pay for that. It's not really any of my business what people do with their time and money. If someone is willing to pay, there is going to be someone who is willing to charge. Westerns thrive on the idea of payment and exchange. Some people do things for different motives.

I would like to know if the "shamans" that set up shop, when Western Aya tourism kicked off, have any "customers" from their local area. Do they charge them? If so, what rate? The same as tourists? I've seen some "shamanic aya retreats" that cost thousands of dollars. Do they charge their fellow people the same price? If not, then that says a lot about shamanism and my opinion of the western view of the shaman.

I appreciate the interest in the culture of ayahuasca, but I don't think it's a required component of self awareness, self realization, and path towards healing/happiness. It's rather dogmatic and absolutist, from hearing testimonials. I'll ask about the experience and they give this colorful description of a typical aya experience. Though, since it was purchased, that creates some expectation that the shamanic aya experience was more "meaningful" or "traditional." Even though the western act of payment was used to achieve this, I often see a purchased sense of pride. Is that bad? Not entirely. Is it bad if payment is the reason someone becomes a shaman? I think so.

Here's a nice poem. It reminds me of the folks here in the US of A. I added the part in green.


"I laugh when I hear that the fish in the water is thirsty

You don't grasp the fact that what is most alive of all
is inside your own house.
and so you walk from one holy city to the next with
a confused look!

Kabir will tell you the truth: go wherever you like,
to Calcutta or Tibet; [or South America to a shamanic retreat]
if you can't find where your soul is hidden,
for you the world will never be real!"---- Kabir



Take Care!
ACY

If I give, I receive no payment. DMT is more special than money, to me, and I value seeing people grow. If they accidentally better themselves from my gift, then that's all the payment that I'm concerned about. (I'd be a bad shaman, huh? Giving rather than requesting... repulsive!!!) Laughing



Sometimes it's good for a change. Other times it isn't.
 
5A8R3
#7 Posted : 3/22/2019 11:45:35 AM
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A magnetic stirrer is definately on my wishlist.

It reminds me of other spiritual centres, such as buddhist temples, who also ask for a fee. Always baffled me that one should pay for enlightenment when at the centre of buddhist teaching is that the answers are within you, or rather, without you.

You are wise AcaciaConfusedYah.
As a chemist you choose the STB method? I was looking into FASA...
 
AcaciaConfusedYah
#8 Posted : 3/22/2019 2:42:52 PM

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5A8R3 wrote:
A magnetic stirrer is definately on my wishlist.

It reminds me of other spiritual centres, such as buddhist temples, who also ask for a fee. Always baffled me that one should pay for enlightenment when at the centre of buddhist teaching is that the answers are within you, or rather, without you.

You are wise AcaciaConfusedYah.
As a chemist you choose the STB method? I was looking into FASA...



Hey 5A8R3!

I don't know about wise... wise-ass, yes! But wise... lol I've still got much to learn. Smile

Yes, I think we're of similar opinions about spiritual centers. I am biased, but that is likely due to the stubborn approach of "well... if my spirituality needs fixing, then only I can determine that." If someone else tells me that i'm not the "right kind of spiritual" then i'm likely to be even more weary of that person. My life is spiritually. There is no separation - so I don't find value in paying others to tell me something that does not relate to my personal path. That being said, if others want to pay someone for those suggestions, then that is their choice, and I respect their choice to choose!

In my experience - I learn the most when I am "wrong." Extractions, school, work, family - you name it. If I'm told something without relation to a life event, then it's hard for me to understand the value in the message. If I struggle, then it kicks in that stubborn mind and I take an approach to learn the application. Often this results in a lot of trial and error; though it is nice when someone else has tried something, had errors, recorded the errors, found a solution, documented the solution, and offered it via open-source. Even if their merhod is not completely compatible with my resources (equipment, chems, etc) I try to interpolate and reconfigure so that the concept can be applied. I've learned a lot more from being "wrong" than being "right." If I'm "right," then that means I haven't got a complete understanding. If I'm "wrong," that too, means I don't have a complete understanding; but it means I recognize the fault and I am trying to improve it.


As far as method - I've tried many! The FASA approach is great for folks who are using d-limonene or xylene; or they wish to have DMT fumarate for oral use. I generally use an acid titration approach for mescaline, due to the salt being more desirable. For DMT, I favor freebase, so the FASA method is not as useful for my choice of end result. I think the FASA and d-limo approach is great for people who do not have access to a vacuum chamber / reduced pressure. They can use a food safe solvent (safe if ingested) and food grade fumaric acid. This means that the residual solvent or acid won't be problematic for the user.

I do favor STB for simple extractions. I've tried many different variations of extractions and I've enjoyed learning about all of them! I've extracted alkaloids from plant matter more than i'll openly admit, but 90% of those experiments were motivated by curiosity rather than the actual substance. It is a... hobby? I dunno that sounds funny Laughing ---"So Mr. ACY, what do you like to do in your free time?" ____ "Drugs."_____"Drugs???"_____"Wait, no, i should elaborate, I just enjoy the chemistry of drugs."_____***person asking question raises a concerned eyebrow*** "Um... you really shouldn't make meth... you've seen the "labs" blow up, right?"_____"No, no, no - not meth!! It's nothing like that. It's more like...hmmm... 'natural' drugs... yah know?"_____"Our company has a strict policy against marijuana growing, I'm sorry, we cannot consider you as a candidate..."____***ACY facepalms*** "yeah, of course. Good thing I don't grow it..."_____"Yes, Susan? Can you call security? It appears as though we have another 'one of them,' again. Thanks!.... So, Mr. ACY, would you like a bottle of water? This next part is going to be very uncomfortable. How do you feel about being escorted out of the building by 5 large men?"_____"I have legs. No escorts needed. Keep your water. I've got plenty in my car... See Yah!" ***Bolts the hell outta there***

Ok, that's never happened. It's just how I imagine it happening IF it did.

Back on track - yes, STB for ease and simplicity. The more I tried to make things complicated.. the more complicated things became! STB is simple and can be executed via minimal resources. It's the most popular extraction method, so I had usually overlooked it. I used to think that a more complicated method was "better" than a simple method. My thought was: Why would someone complicate something if there were not a need to complicate? From this perspective, I assumed an STB was inferior - "it's too simple. If it were the best approach, then people would not have designed the more complicated teks."

WELL, remember what I said about being wrong and right? When I'm wrong, I learn more. So, I set out to discover my level of wrongness. When I realized that I was wrong, I began to wonder about the procedures that are presented, here. I started asking, "why do we do this, or that?" I'm still not "right," but I'm moving in a direction that I feel is beneficial.

I looped back around to the STB after learning more about chemistry. The thing I had most questions about was the concept of "excess." I had learned about pH and the contributing factors, and I started wondering if the "kill it with lye" approach is really needed. From my findings: no, not at all. I actually found that less lye made the separation of the aqueous and organic layer occur at a faster rate.

I wondered why some people say, "do eleventy-billion 0.0005 mL pulls, and make sure its heated... hey anyone know why i'm getting poor yields and lots of goo?" So, i tried a single, large pull at room temp.... wtf? "Why am I getting better results from doing this, and saving way more time and a lot less hassle?"

I still don't understand the purpose of 7x 50 mL pulls. It doesn't make sense to me. So, lets assume that you have 100% available for extraction. Let's assume that each pull will remove a decreased % of the total alks per ratio of volume. There are 500 mg total. Each 50 mL pull can only remove 20% of the total alkaloids. First pull - leaves 400 mg; second leaves 320 mg; third leaves 256 mg; fourth leaves 204.8 mg; fifth leaves 163.84, sixth leaves 131.072 mg; 7th leaves 104.86 mg. So, from 500 mg and 7 pulls, ~395 mg retrieved.

Ok, same scenario, two large pulls. Each pull removes 80% DMT from the total mix. First pull: 100 mg remains in soup; second pull: 20 mg remains in soup. Total collected: 480 mg DMT.

So, comparing the two: which seems more preferred? Multiple, small, less efficient pulls? Or 2 big ones that get the job done faster and with a better return? It's not as simple as my example - or... maybe it is. I mean... why would there be a more complicated approach if the simple one doesn't "work?" This will continue to baffle me... but, hey... why not?? Lol. If someone wants to do more work for a lower return, then that's their choice, IMO. I'll share the findings of my experiments, but at the end of the day, I won't enforce my ideals. Most people will ignore it, anyways. Lol. Especially after this wall of text. It took so much to say so little. Over complicated explanation? Likely.

The simple reply would be: "figure it out through experimenting." That's what I did.

Take care!
ACY

Edit: In hindsight - maybe the multiple small pull approach is a hidden way to get people to slow down and stop rushing. That makes more sense, actually. Ignore what i said about time efficiency and ease. I get it, now. How many times have I seen the post, "I added lye, added NPS, stirred for 2 minutes and 45 seconds... no dmt??? Why???" So, maybe the multi-pull is a secret buffer to keep the rushed from rushing. I had never considered that, as I had always felt that rushing it would result in problems.

(Oops! You got promoted, it seems. Someone probably tossed you an "accidental" vote. Enjoy the forum. Smile )
Sometimes it's good for a change. Other times it isn't.
 
5A8R3
#9 Posted : 3/23/2019 8:13:45 AM
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Well thanks friend!

What are you using a vacuum chamber for? Do you not freeze precip at all?
My solvent usually seems a little cloudy no matter how long it is in the freezer for, I guess ideally I'd like to evap all that sovlent away but it just takes too long and the exposure allows contimination of particulates.

How much risk of combustion is there when evaporating solvent with reduced pressure? Do you need a specific type of pump to handle the solvent vapour? If you are evaporating, you might aswell distill...?
 
AcaciaConfusedYah
#10 Posted : 3/23/2019 4:18:29 PM

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I do freeze precip. The vacuum chamber is mainly to purge any bits that may be trapped in the cryatals. It's probably not needed, but I imagine it's the academic conditioning that leads me to use vacuum after precipitation.

Even carefully extracted chems in a university setting (stored under vacuum for a day or two) would still show a presence of the solvent via proton NMR.

Since i'm not using a roto-vap at home, I'd imagine there is little chance of combustion. I'd imagine that at least 95% of solvent had been removed before going into the vacuum chamber.

How long are you letting it precipitate? What's the temp of the freezer? I found that "forgetting about it" for a few days often resulted in better returns. Rather than 18-24 hrs, I'll let it precipitate for 3-7 days. (Once, I forgot about it for 3 months - most beautiful crystals that I've ever "grown." )

For evaporation with reduced pressure for the entire process, then a roto-vap would be ideal. I can't afford that, but a vacuum pump and vacuum chambers are relatively cheap. I'll decant/pour the NPS into a separate container for reuse or reclaimation. After that, I toss the beaker (spice and all) in the vacuum chamber and reduce the pressure to -30 psi. That just prevents excess atmospheric water from intruding (it's sofaking humid here... you can almost cut the air, it is THAT thick). I'll give it an occasional purge every few hours on the first day, and then purge at least once a day until I'm content with the end results. There is no heat during this process, so I don't see a risk of combustion. Plus, the actual amount of solvent that makes it into the vacuum chamber is likely less than you ingest after opening the container of naphtha and accidentally getting a large whiff of the smell. The vacuum part, for me, is post precipitation and pre ingestion. It's just a buffer zone - and more than anything, keeps excess condensation forming on the cold glass of the beaker while the DMT finishes drying.


Take Care!
ACY
Sometimes it's good for a change. Other times it isn't.
 
breeze225
#11 Posted : 8/7/2019 11:07:04 PM
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Ok guys I didn't read thew whole thread but DO NOT I REPEATE DO NOT USE ANY METAL TO STIR!!! I have not been in the dmt world for long but I have worked with metal (specificly HIGH HIGH QUALITY STAINLESS) and trust me even a high quality spoon that you may find isn't anywhere near the quality I am talking about....we use slightly different high quality stainless and forge them togather to make what is commonly known as "Damascus" (technicly its not Damascus its pattern welded but people adopted the Damascus name) some use carbon steel to do this (its MUCH easier than doing it with stainless) but me and friends use stainless and even starting to play with different mixes of titanium over the year...anyway we use acid mainly cause it works a lil bit better but some bases can be used as well....it will "etch" into the steel revieling the pattern that we forged togather...it will litterly dissolve the surface of the steel and bring it into solution NOT good for what your doing here....there are a lot of people that say this can only be done with acid not base and that is true for some steels maybe 5% of the high quality stuff we use but trust me I have used bases on a lot of high quality stainless and it does work....acid gives a sharper "image" of the pattern wich is why you wont find much about this on bases cauase not many use it but really I wouldnt want any dissolved steel in the mix!
 
 
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