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~Phalaris = The Way Of The Future~ Options
 
downwardsfromzero
#461 Posted : 3/5/2019 1:00:59 PM

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If you've recrystallised from naphtha the product should at least be free from gramine.

Your Ehrlich's colour test result is promising, although it's helpful to have several other test solutions for stronger confirmation, such as Marquis, Mecke and Mandelin reagents. https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m...imetric_reagent_results

TLC is very much your friend when working with Phalaris (indeed, in general when seeking out plants of biochemical interest) so getting hold of a kit would be of great help if you're continuing your Phalaris investigations.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Wildideals
#462 Posted : 3/6/2019 2:29:32 AM
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downwardsfromzero wrote:
If you've recrystallised from naphtha the product should at least be free from gramine.

Your Ehrlich's colour test result is promising, although it's helpful to have several other test solutions for stronger confirmation, such as Marquis, Mecke and Mandelin reagents. https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m...imetric_reagent_results

TLC is very much your friend when working with Phalaris (indeed, in general when seeking out plants of biochemical interest) so getting hold of a kit would be of great help if you're continuing your Phalaris investigations.


Thanks for the link, will be ordering a kit along with mecke and marquis reagents on payday! In terms of the yeiled product, I am assuming if I have indeed extracted the desired salts there will probably be a presence of bufomintine (bronchial and vascular constricton is relitively unappealing) would a second clean up extraction of the crystals in heptane be a viable option to isolate the more desirable alkaloids?
 
downwardsfromzero
#463 Posted : 3/6/2019 2:44:27 AM

Peeing into the abyss

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I doubt you'll get much bufotenine with naphtha, heptane is basically highly refined naphtha anyhow.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Chimp Z
#464 Posted : 5/2/2020 3:17:40 AM

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Phalaris Caroliniana also known as "Maygrass"...
Met this patch a year ago and figured I'd start out the month of May by
searching for flowering patches of Phalaris today.
This naturalized species is very similar in appearance to Phalaris Lemmonii
and Phalaris Minor.
The distinguishing features from Phalaris Minor is that Phalaris Minor
generally has more foliage that is also longer and more wide.
Phalaris Minor that I've also seen in the same county
will have wider flowers than Phalaris Caroliniana,
though they often mature around the same height.
Phalaris Minor might flower continuously from April to August as well.
This patch of grass is completely seeding by the end of May & beginning of June.
Natives of the Southeastern USA used to nourish their bodies with the
grains of this grass. It has since naturalized across the USA in through
the west coast mostly inland/coastal areas where it can be found
in wetlands or disturbed sites.
I will be growing this out and returning to the wild patch to experiment
with the medicine of this grass, if there is any.
In the future it would be nice to make bread or milk with its seeds.
Thank you Phalaris teacher.


ethnobotany of maygrass as food:
https://gailewagner.weeb...roliniana-maygrass.html

https://link.springer.co...icle/10.1007/BF02904421

https://ethnobiology.org...ive-north-american-crop

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalaris_caroliniana
Chimp Z attached the following image(s):
phalaris caroliniana.jpg (649kb) downloaded 455 time(s).
 
dithyramb
#465 Posted : 5/2/2020 10:10:49 AM

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Thank you, Chimp z. I am looking forward to your report.
 
OmniSlug
#466 Posted : 5/15/2020 8:10:47 PM

"Only when you are nothing can you be everything" Matus

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grollum wrote:
Here is one tec which seem to work pretty well for all phalaris...

Thank you so much for this! My experience with Turkey red was similar, i tried a combo of it and Syrian rue and it was lightyears beyond anything else I'd ever done and I'd had rue/mhrb brews maybe a dozen times by then. Completely destroyed by the intensity of it, like god haf chewed me up and spat me out. I also had my mind block some of the experience, this says a lot about it.

I'm currently looking for another turkey red or another known 5MEO rich variety. I'm very sad I lost my turkey red years ago, the things a little grass can do!!! I personally find 5MEO to be hugely more useful than NN and it's time to go there again. Tried purchasing what was called turkey red from a ebay seller but it isn't the same. I'll try your tek on it before I remove it though.
Please universe let me gind another grass like I had!
 
jamadagni
#467 Posted : 8/8/2020 3:04:11 AM

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Thanks for this @Chimp Z. I have been doing some research on Phalaris Caroliniana as well - I find it fascinating that through the history of turtle island indigenous populations relied on Phalaris for its seed, and indeed even used it in the mortuary offerings. I found a recent (2016) paper about maygrass seed use in coastal california that dives into its use. It seems that maygrass seed was used as a staple food in native american diets from at least 3000 years ago through the 1700s.

Quote:
...despite lack of reference in ethnohistoric accounts of their use, the ubiquitous recovery of two particular grasses, Maygrass/Canary grass (Phalaris sp.) and Little Barley (Hordeum pusillum), from Mission-period Native American contexts in the Los Angeles Basin, demonstrates that they were primary plant staples throughout the sequence. Furthermore, the intensity of their exploitation increased over time, and European domesticates were added to the repertoire in the Mission period. (Note that Phalaris sp. is referred to as Maygrass or Canary grass by different paleoethnobotanists [Popper 2002; Wohlgemuth 2002].


Quote:
Based on these data, it is evident that Canary grass and Little Barley were the main plant food staples of the Native American diet well into the Mission period. It is interesting to note, however, that there is a significant lack of fit between the ethnohistoric accounts for the region and these paleoethnobotanical results, because typically California ethnohistoric accounts emphasize non-grass plants (such as nuts, roots, berries) being used as food by pre-contact and contact-period Native Americans. As such, this stands in contrast to what is found in the macrobotanical record not only at the two Gabrielino sites in the Los Angeles Basin, but coastal Southern California in general. Ubiquitous quantities of Canary grass and Little Barley have also been recovered in Late and contact-period contexts along coastal San Diego on Camp Pendleton Marine Corps Base (Reddy 1999, 2004).


Attaching the paper to this post..


O you sons of nectar, sons of the nectarine ocean sea:
Please listen to me.
You were born in nectar. You were born to taste nectar.
You must not allow yourselves to be satisfied by anything but nectar.
Awake! Arise! And search for that nectar.
 
Sidisheikh.mehriz
#468 Posted : 5/3/2021 9:24:30 AM

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Hello there fellow phalaris enthusiastsSmile

I just finished reading this thread and (phalaris project) by @dithyramb for the third time now.
Firstable i'd like to give a big thanks to @Chimp Z and @dythiramb for paving the way for rest of us to take special interest and develop a new relationship to these beautiful humble plants. Thank you guys for your courage and everyone else who walked this path before you and were keen to share their experiences and knowledge with newbies like myself. I've just recently dipped my toes into the realms of this medicine thanks to you beautiful souls.


Last month i had my first oral phalaris experience in combination with syrian rue and was blown away with it's positive energy and fairness. Today i thought is a good time to take the initiative to bring this thread back to life with yet another bioassay and leave it with some notes and questions.
Although i did document my experience in my introduction essay, it was written while i was slightly still under the influence and while i was tired and sleepy . As the days have passed my narrative and my opinions on the trip is still maturing and i think it would be better if i rewrite it here under a new light after i did more research and introspection. So let's get into it shall we.

One day in late april i had enough with reading and contemplating and decided it's time to take action. I went on a hike in our semi-arid country side to a pre-located spot where i have noticed a variety of phalaris species growing the previous year. At around 12pm i came by a large field of cereals infested with phalaris brachystachys that was in the anthesis stage and flowering. Due to a lack of rain and since they were on a higher plain they enjoyed even less water and seemed water stressed which drove them to convert to anthesis stage earlier Then normally. This also meant they had very little leaf biomass which made the Harvest more tedious. the soil is a heavy clay all throughout the landscape. Its mostly flat terrains with no wind breaks so it's usually very windy (a plant stressor) these cereal feilds are unirrigated and unfertilized. At 12pm i started havesting the top two thirds of the leaves using a scissor. The process was too slow and tedious.

I had some concerns if the variety am harvesting from might be a low alkaloid type and if therea are better spots with a better biomass. So when i thought i harvested enough i moved on to look for another phalaris species and came upon paradoxa (in anthesis also) in the same field. I harvested very littles from this paradoxa then following my intuition i moved down to a nearby valley where i harvested a good deal of what i beleive to be phalaris aquatica (some of which were in anthesis while others adjacent was just starting to send anthers or still in vegetative stage.) Also harvested a tiny bit of what i beleive now is phalaris truncata based on anthers in the same spot. The aquatica and the truncata were grazed by sheep and were regrowing again after some scant rain, some looked thirsty while some others in the shade humid spots looked vigorous and healthy.

I came home with a total of 630grams of fresh blade tips. If i had to give a weight ratio i'd say it's mainly brachystachys with a ratio of ~70% a20% aquatica, 5% paradoxa, 5% truncata.

Harvest took from 12pm to 4pm between harvest and searching around. Two hours might have passed since i finished harvesting and started cooking.

I washed the leaves in tap water then strained and placed in a pot and added boiling tap water enough to cover the leaves.

Added a spoon of pickling vinegar and a pinch of citric acid, covered the pot and turned the heat on lowest setting to simmer. Adding water as needed. I then strained the tea in a different pot and added an equal volume of boiling tap water and added same quantity of vinegar and citric acid and left to simmer again. The grass has been cooked for a collective of 4 hours then the brew was simmered down to around 650ml.
Meanwhile I extracted some harmala alkaloids based and salted twice.

Next evening i took three 100mg capsules of the harmala hcl crystals after a light dinner.

00:00 swallowed the harmala capsules and kay down

00:40 starting to feel the effects but decided to wait a bit further till it fully kicks in

00:55 slight nausea, a little shaking and slightly dizzy, i decide its to start drinking the phalaris tea so i get up abd walk my way to the kitchen. Getting up made me feel much dizzier but manageable.

I pour one cup from the 650ml of tea (about 100ml) abd start sipping it slowly and cautiously while feeling a little sick from the harnalas. About 5 mins between each sip for a total of around 35 mins

01:40 nausea is slightly less, but shaking has increased and felt a bit cold. i feel a surge of energy and there is a buzzing in my head that is new to me and haven't experienced on harmalas alone. This buzzing or shall we call it vibrations at the back of my head spreads out to my neck and shoulders and to my back...i start to feel more conscious of my body form through these vibrations rippling through me , i didn't pay enough attention to this part, now i think of it i come to realize it could have been more enjoyable if i did let myself explore it more but i didn't understand it as something new to me and my mind was distracted by a rising wave of energy that i failed to ride properly Which caused me some panic.

I remember still sitting down to this table shaking slightly and suddenly something kicks in hard...a thought? An intuition? a fear of something unknown approaching whatever it is i felt it coming and it caused me panic ..it made me stand up very sudden before i know it realizing i might be up for a rough ride. Fair to say i stopped drinking at this point and quickly went to bed underneath a blanket to help with the shaking and yo get warm...
I already had some pictures and proverbs on my phone prepared for such a situation when am panicking to alleviate this and it seemed to work.

02:00 i am in bliss! What was once uncontrollable mischanneled energy and vibrations has found a way to channel through me positively transforming into orgasmic ripples. .. very sexual, teasing, delightful and very HONEST. Very black background like the darkness of space while eyes closed and lines of zapping neon lights (as @dithyramb describes, quiet similar) in thoughts not in words it's conveying something like: check this out look at how cool this can be, I got some things for you to see..all the time with ectazy. Neuro bloom shall i call it, these closed eye visualsa are juuuust a tiny bit of the main message and theme its mainly in the mind and the body!

it glorifies and highlights My masculinity and my sexual energy. Shaking has disappeared am warm and comfy and really in bliss. Then things starts to take a mystical turn.
There were some frightening thoughts that felt like on the edge of something very bad like everything could go south any second like seeing the tip of the iceberg. Someone knows I was tripping and were texting me how's it going..i didn't even feel like i should ask their help to come out of this bad loop i felt like if tried to write it down i will get Entangled in it deeper. This medicine can be edgy and can fool you into thinking it's all pure fun but the whole time i felt on the edge of a deep hole or at thee edge of a blast off.. perhaps it's a dosage matter. I think it was a fair dosage for a first time and has embolded me to try it once more as a weighed extract.

I no longer remember very accurately the rest of the chronology of the trip but i remember thee intensity of the trip emded very suddenly ..halted shall i say in a matter of seconds i was 100% sober something i never felt on any other substance. Normally harmala alkaloids on its own would continue its effects by now and gradually fade but i was no longer feeling the harnalas neither the phalaris just sobered up completely... This goes fora a few minutes then the trip is back again with closed eyes visuals and takes a spiritual turn..perhaps influenced by the mosques speakers summoning for prayer. These voices from the mosques took colours a and vortexes raising up to the sky..to god or the heavens.. sky takes an angelic theme and i get a picture of our city dancing in aurora lights of green violet and blue in the dark of night again nothing special visually But very pleasant nevertheless.

I come to think of it now after reading on 5-meo-dmt i think that's what's been mostly in my tea. How do you guys feel about that based on my report?

Could the vibrations i experienced be what is referred to as the shakra? I feel like this part of the trip deserves its own topic.

Could i have experienced what would be considered a light dose 5-meo-dmt ?

This experience makes me now think if what i have ingested was mainly 5-meo-dmt then how bad things could have gone if i decided to continue drinking or drank quicker .. night have been a frightening trip or even toxic. Although i had no toxic effects whatsoever the potential of having mainly 5meo in my brew makes me want to take thus more seriously.

 
jamie
#469 Posted : 5/4/2021 3:22:37 PM

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Hello Sidisheikh...very cool report! It's exciting to see people having success with grasses in different regions of the globe.

I won't comment on the alkaloid speculations, aside from the fact that my own experiences with aquatica felt 5-MeO-DMT dominant. You have access to species I have never seen.
 
Sidisheikh.mehriz
#470 Posted : 5/5/2021 12:54:19 AM

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Hi there @jamie
I know right! it's an exciting prospect.
I have collected 60g of brachys seeds and shall repeat this experiment under better controlled conditions. I'll sowe in autumn after first rain, sift the soil to a fine and uniform grain for better germination rate. I read that smoke may enhance germination so i plan to use my bee smoker filled with wheat husk for this job. Fertilize with ammonium nitrate and ammonium phosphate and apply the stressing factors discussed in festi and sammorini paper.

For extraction am planning to use a slightly acidic 70/30 water, isopropyl alcohol medium for cooking. Reduce to a thick syrup taking care not to overheat it. Pour a thick bed of sodium carbonate on top let it soak in for 30 mins. mix it into a paste maybe add few drops of water while mixing to make sure enough Naco3 dissolves, leave to react and evaporate at room temp until bone dry. Extract this with 70ml 99.9% isopropyl three times, run the ISO in an alcohol pre-wet coffee filter to avoid yield loss then reduce the filtrate to a few ml's. To this filtrate concentrate i'll add a saturated Naco3 solution to ensure at least a 12ph and to a convenient practical volume. Extract with dichloromethane (sold to shop front signage workers to weld plexiglass, polycarbonstes and such) twice, the first pull done with minimum stirring to avoid emultions, second pull should contain much less fats and can be stirred more vigorously. Combine solvent and wash with a basic Naco3 solution as many timesa as needed until i cant see anymore discoloration of the basic solution. Then salt three times with 50ml pH 5 formic acid (sold at 80% for varroa treatment to beekeepers) solution. Evaporate the formic acid solution in a hot water bath to hopefully obtain tryptamines formate crystals.
Formate salt toxicity has been studied for use in mineral supplements like iron and magnesium and is considered safe at 400mg doses. Formic acid is very volatile and is the strongest of all carboxylic acids group (including citric acid), exactly 10 times stronger than acetic acid but still weaker than HCL. I've no access to fumaric acid neither acetone. Oxalic is another carboxylic acid alternative and is also sold as avarroa treatment to beekeepers and has been considered as a salt form for 5-meo-dmt for a crystalline product but the scientific literature has eventually agreed upon succinate salt as best for crystals. I have the oxalic, but the problem is its not volatile and I don't feel good about using excess and it ending up in my extract even though it exists in most legumes it's still a strong carboxylic acid. I gave up on white vinegar because of the organic impurities and hygroscopicity.

I apologize for my long essays am just trying to be as thorough as i could.
How does my set up look @Jamie? Do you have any suggestions to tweak this up more? I'd highly appreciate your input or anyone else keen to help. I got plenty time to contemplate this. I started reading the organic chemistry book (chemistry as a second language) and it's helping me tremendously. For the first time i can read and understand the reactions taking place in DMT and 5-meo-dmt synthesis and one day this will be my next project.
 
dithyramb
#471 Posted : 5/7/2021 7:56:00 PM

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Hey sidisheikh.mehriz, thank you for your courageous experiment and report!

Please experiment with one species at a time, it seems your goal is not simply to get high but to study and learn.

You probably read all of this from my posts already, but...

Paradoxa turned out nasty for me. I did not feel like continuing experiments with it so far.

I think it might be very difficult to find an aquatica that does not have 5 MeO DMT. The brachystachys strain İ found seems to be only N,N. 5 MeO in the right ratio with N,N I found very desirable, but of course with grass the amounts and ratios are extremely variable and it can easily get dangerous with 5 MeO and rue.

The tyramines in aquatica also probably make it dangerous. I feel like I evaded physical death with a thin margin twice with aquatica and truncata.

Each species is different and unique. I found brachystachys feminine and playful, and aquatica masculine and straight.

The brachystachys experience comes in waves with sober periods in between. With aquatica, when the experience is finished, you are left highly sober and grounded, no matter how crazy strong the experience was.

I think I will take the back seat with phalaris by this point... I have not found the long term medicine I was seeking in it and I don't have the conditions to study/discover further.

Good luck, be safe, and heal/awaken much!
 
Sidisheikh.mehriz
#472 Posted : 5/8/2021 2:01:24 AM

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Thank you very much Dithyramb. I know this wasn't the most methodical experiment mixing up all those species but.. it's only my first bioassay and i really wanted it to work (at least detect some activity) to feed my curiosity and to inspire me to further pursue this path, it was more of a prove of concept if that makes sense.

Now i am ready to get into studying these species each at a time. I read about your dreadful two experiences with aquatica and truncata and those two reports once almost convinced me to drop all plans with phalaris. I thought about those near death experiences you had while i was drinking the tea Shocked And it made me drink very cautiously and slowly.
I'm very surprised you even went back to bioassay aquatica after such experiences, hat's off to you. You've got some balls my friend!

My chemistry knowledge and craft is constantly evolving and my confidence in extracting is increasing so i'm opting for extractions from now on and will invest in an accurate scale. My future experiments shall be either vaped, smoked, intranasal or sublingual. I'll make an exception for brachystachys and may drink it again Since it made the majority of my tea and the experience was very positive overall.

Sure i read about your report on paradoxa seeming grey and dull but i think also chimp Z has had okay experimences with it so one never knows really. I must try and see for myself and report back. Living in north Africa a place known to be the most diverse in phalaris species, my journey has just began Smile

You make a fair point about the dangers of 5-meo-dmt at high doses and it's Just not worth the risk with such variable plants, hence why am opting for extracting and weighing my extracts from now on.

It's a shame that i have to wait until autumn to start experimenting with grass again.
Very happy
 
dithyramb
#473 Posted : 5/8/2021 2:05:38 PM

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This year has been unfortunately dry and hot over here... I truly am sorry for the early entrance into the dead of the summer.

Chimp said he doesn't recall trying paradoxa orally. Plus there might be variance in strain. My single experience felt like nothing to go back to. Though the entire landscape over here turns into paradoxa land at some point in late spring.

Brachystachys is probably orally the safest and most effective

Please keep sharing, thank you for joining the pioneering work!
 
Sidisheikh.mehriz
#474 Posted : 5/8/2021 11:45:23 PM

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dithyramb wrote:
This year has been unfortunately dry and hot over here... I truly am sorry for the early entrance into the dead of the summer.

Chimp said he doesn't recall trying paradoxa orally. Plus there might be variance in strain. My single experience felt like nothing to go back to. Though the entire landscape over here turns into paradoxa land at some point in late spring.

Brachystachys is probably orally the safest and most effective

Please keep sharing, thank you for joining the pioneering work!


I really liked your bioassay of brachystachys sown in early summer I recall there were merely three small pots of seedlings that gave you a trip with rue. What was that like 18g ?! That is insane!

It's been quiet a dry spring here too (like most years) and summer came earlier than usual but i still managed to harvest quiet a bit of leaves. The trick is to harvest after each time it rains when the grass is growing back. It's during those sporadic light showers of rain is when brachys shows it's vigourness not after heavy rains. Open planes without wind breaks gets very windy most the time. This speeds up moisture evaporation from the soil after rain and helps create that moderate water stress condition that brachys likes.

This article in the Spanish journal of agricultural research explains this very well:
https://www.google.com/u...amp;cshid=1620508880645

I found this piece of research very accurate and is confirmed by my own observations. Take for instance when i mentioned finding brachys in a wheat field on a heavy clay soil and take a look at this quote from the article
[Quote] However, specific soil preferences have been found for each species in Andalusia. In irrigated fields, P. minor is more frequent in loamy soils, while P. brachystachys appears to prefer heavy clay soils (Saavedra, 1987; Saavedra et al., 1990). In dry land fields, however, there were no differences in frequency (Hidalgo, 1988; Hidalgo et al., 1990) between the species. Nevertheless,
P. brachystachys has extended its range to semiarid provinces with low rainfall (Saavedra et al., 1989a).
This different adaptation to soil and irrigation conditions is difficult to explain with aspects of their biology herbicide tolerance, or cultivation practices. However, they may indicate a different tolerance to de-ficient or excessive watering regimens. Other authors
(Rodiyati et al., 2005) have related differences in dis-tribution of Cyperus species to drought tolerance. In Phalaris species, the more extended distribution of P. brachystachys could be linked with drought tolerance, but to our knowledge, has not yet been established. Hence, the objective of this study was to assess the influence of different soil water levels over growth and reproductive aspects under greenhouse controlled conditions to explain the differences found in distri-
bution of P. brachystachys and P. minor [Quote\]

The paper comes out with the conclusion that brachystachys grows less favourably with field capacity irrigation (plenty of water) resulting in taller panicles and less leaves and grows denser and more abundantly under moderate water stress..it likes some moister stress it seems and likes to grow on clay soil (think of building a heavy clay raised beds for sowing) and in semi arid environments there's higher chance to find it as the sole weed within cereal crops. I find this to be pretty accurate and practical guide for those of us persuing this plant in the Mediterranean.

The plan i built so far is to harvest as much mature panicles as i could end of spring, leave them to completely dry then run them through a sieve to seperate the seeds out.. while this has worked amazingly and efficiently for me I regret not having done this more before the weather dried up quick and all plants died.

I even heard of as strain of this species in turkey that is resistant to herbicides, it's a serious crop weed that's expensive and very difficult to eradicate. You can still find it in its natural habitat but it would be nowhere as abundant as in a wheat field because in it's natural habitat it has other natural wild plant competitors and together they form a balance.
Sidisheikh.mehriz attached the following image(s):
IMG20210416130207.jpg (2,860kb) downloaded 126 time(s).
 
Sidisheikh.mehriz
#475 Posted : 9/4/2021 11:54:54 PM

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Some updates on seed germination. So for the last couple months or so I've been experimenting with germinating seeds of phalaris brachyatchys harvested this year's Spring directly sowed in this summer's heat on the soil surface and pressed lightly into the soil... Watered so that it remains moist but not too much that it creates aneorobic conditions. I tried this in huge clay pot .. directly on gardens soil.. in different spots shaded and non shaded .. covered with nylon sheets to maintain moisture and non covered.

None has shown the slightest signs of germination not a single seed and this has went for several weeks now..

At this same time patches of dried up phalaris aquatica and phalaris truncata cuttings from last spring have began sending back new shoots after constantly being watered and soil was maintained moist for several days but growing at slow pace because of the heat..

Few days ago phalaris canariensis (commercial bird seed variety) has began germinating and sending off tall shoots from underneath moist decaying leaves in the ground. The green shoots of this commercial strain curiously tasted bitter upon shewing.

So basically all the species of phalaris have started coming back to life even while it's still hot and dry (Mediterranean summer) over here.... except for phalaris brachyatchys it has seldom responded to watering.

This has changed today when I tried a new method Thumbs up which is going to be the highlight of this update Very happy

To put it briefly I found this research paper (The First Case of Short-Spiked Canarygrass (Phalaris brachystachys) with Cross-Resistance to ACCase-Inhibiting Herbicides in Iran)

During their research study they have mentioned breaking seed dormancy of brachyatchys seeds by treating them with concentrated sulfuric acid 98% for three mins.. washed then placed on wet filter paper inside Petri dishes in an incubator at 4 celcius for 72 hours in complete darkness. This has been their method of germination to test seedlings performance under different herbicide treatments!

I was like how come they place it in the dark when all seed selling websites recommend sunlight and surface sowing for germination and usually warn of irratic germination rate?!?!?

Curious I tried this Petri dish at 4 degrees in the dark and to my surprise it didn't even take 72 hours for some seeds to start sending shoots but it only took no more than three hours!!!! Very happy

I'm really astonished. I didn't even use the sulfuric acid treatment as mentioned by the research paper. These seeds have been laying around in my cupboard since spring harvest up till now so they had plenty of time to ripen. But now I know how to break the seed dormancy anytime I wanted and can grow this grass all year round Wink

In crop science it is a well known fact that poacea species produce the highest ammounts of alkaloids in the hottest of temperatures like barley produce several times fold as much gramine at 38 celcius and this concentration of gramine in the plant will not drop as the plant nature and it's all because of the heat stress.

It will no surprise of phalaris followed the same pattern. Anyways I'm just really excited that I finally know how to start growing this grass early on before the break in of fall season and while the weather is still hot. Giving longer growing time for more harvests.
 
Chimp Z
#476 Posted : 9/19/2021 10:05:53 PM

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[quote=Sidisheikh.mehriz]

"
At this same time patches of dried up phalaris aquatica and phalaris truncata cuttings from last spring have began sending back new shoots after constantly being watered and soil was maintained moist for several days but growing at slow pace because of the heat.. "

"
In crop science it is a well known fact that poacea species produce the highest ammounts of alkaloids in the hottest of temperatures like barley produce several times fold as much gramine at 38 celcius and this concentration of gramine in the plant will not drop as the plant nature and it's all because of the heat stress. "

""


Are you able to clarify what you mean by cuttings??
Did you divide rhizomes or did you clip seed heads that dropped seeds into the ground??
Outside of their native ranges, Truncata and Brachystachys are difficult plants to get to grow back the next year so that's awesome that you're having at least some of these Phalaris friends return.


I'm not sure it's a "Well known fact" that grasses produce the highest amounts of alkaloids in hot temperatures, usually the unpalatable constituents spike above trytpamines in the hotter months but it varies everywhere from grass to grass, how much water/shade they receive and how much sun/moon they get. Even in a 100 mile radius summer heat can arrive sooner than other places and also factor in that many Phalaris patches grow under trees that provide shade and are able to regulate the plants in a different way. Diurnal differences play a huge part in the concentrations of alkaloids you'll find at any given time of day/night. Science has also shown us that many causes of livestock death or "staggers" are from high amounts of cobalt build up in soil or other issues like mixing toxic legumes into their diet.



Keep on grassin'!
Chimp Z attached the following image(s):
phalaris aquatica.jpg (559kb) downloaded 52 time(s).
 
Sidisheikh.mehriz
#477 Posted : 9/23/2021 6:39:16 PM

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Chimp Z wrote:
[quote=Sidisheikh.mehriz]

"
At this same time patches of dried up phalaris aquatica and phalaris truncata cuttings from last spring have began sending back new shoots after constantly being watered and soil was maintained moist for several days but growing at slow pace because of the heat.. "

"
In crop science it is a well known fact that poacea species produce the highest ammounts of alkaloids in the hottest of temperatures like barley produce several times fold as much gramine at 38 celcius and this concentration of gramine in the plant will not drop as the plant nature and it's all because of the heat stress. "

""


Are you able to clarify what you mean by cuttings??
Did you divide rhizomes or did you clip seed heads that dropped seeds into the ground??
Outside of their native ranges, Truncata and Brachystachys are difficult plants to get to grow back the next year so that's awesome that you're having at least some of these Phalaris friends return.


I'm not sure it's a "Well known fact" that grasses produce the highest amounts of alkaloids in hot temperatures, usually the unpalatable constituents spike above trytpamines in the hotter months but it varies everywhere from grass to grass, how much water/shade they receive and how much sun/moon they get. Even in a 100 mile radius summer heat can arrive sooner than other places and also factor in that many Phalaris patches grow under trees that provide shade and are able to regulate the plants in a different way. Diurnal differences play a huge part in the concentrations of alkaloids you'll find at any given time of day/night. Science has also shown us that many causes of livestock death or "staggers" are from high amounts of cobalt build up in soil or other issues like mixing toxic legumes into their diet.



Keep on grassin'!


What I meant by cuttings is I uprooted whole plants late in the spring while it's seed panicles are drying up divided the rhizomes and planted in our farm in rows. This was done for truncata. It's proved to be a hardy plant and withstood the heat and dryness of summer pretty well. It also grew from seeds pretty easily a couple years ago.

However when I uprooted brachyatchys into my garden it kept on shooting out smaller and smaller panicles till it dried up and died.

Brachyatchys seeds proved to be the most difficult to germinate. Upon some further reading It turns out that they require very specific alternating temperatures between day and night to germinate and it doesn't rely much on humidity level. Also each variety of brachyatchys has different temperature requirements and different dormancy period. In Iran for exemple 4 days at 4 celcius onna wet filter paper in a Petri dish for three days is enough to germinate.
In southern Spain brachys takes weeks to germinate between 9 degrees at night and 15 at day for optimum germination rate. With peak germination at around December in Mediterranean climate.

No wonder all my effort to germinate it on soil has failed so far as soil temperature hasn't dropped enough yet. I had some success using the fridge for germination but only few seeds has emerged and didn't transplant well (my fault). The fridge was never a good choice to begin with because opening and closing the fridge disrupts the temperature everytime. Wish I had a true cooled incubator
And some good grade concentrated sulfuric acid to break the seed dormancy instantly instead of waiting.

I am not sure about phalaris but lupin and barley does produce quiet a lot more gramine in hotter days than in cooler days. Some barley strains was even selected for higher gramine content as it's useful alkaloid to fend off crop pests.
 
Sidisheikh.mehriz
#478 Posted : 9/23/2021 6:56:47 PM

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Update!
I just came home and checked the styrofoam box where I mixed the seeds with wet heat sterilised soil. It started popping in mass!! Very happy the fridge method really worksRazz it took it around three weeks but finally. I'll take some pics once I get something to eat.
 
downwardsfromzero
#479 Posted : 9/23/2021 7:45:57 PM

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Some thoughts on breaking dormancy...

I've also heard of smoke breaking phalaris seed dormancy. While wondering how sulphuric acid might be breaking the dormancy, it occurred to me that maybe ethylene was being produced (very) locally from some kind of reaction with the seed coat. Ethylene (ethene) is thought to be one of the components of smoke that contributes to breaking dormancy, so here's an idea - what if putting the germinating seeds with a ripe banana might help? Bananas are well known for their ethylene output inducing ripening in other fruit, so there is a chance it can be applied here.

It may be that this only applies to the temperate phalaris species, I don't know. Nor can I see how this might relate to cold germination, not that it needs to.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Sidisheikh.mehriz
#480 Posted : 9/23/2021 8:34:16 PM

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downwardsfromzero wrote:
Some thoughts on breaking dormancy...

I've also heard of smoke breaking phalaris seed dormancy. While wondering how sulphuric acid might be breaking the dormancy, it occurred to me that maybe ethylene was being produced (very) locally from some kind of reaction with the seed coat. Ethylene (ethene) is thought to be one of the components of smoke that contributes to breaking dormancy, so here's an idea - what if putting the germinating seeds with a ripe banana might help? Bananas are well known for their ethylene output inducing ripening in other fruit, so there is a chance it can be applied here.

It may be that this only applies to the temperate phalaris species, I don't know. Nor can I see how this might relate to cold germination, not that it needs to.


I have already done the smoking step before mixing the seeds with soil. I have a beekeeping smoker I put dried and crushed up phalaris panicles inside the smoker lit it up and smoked the seeds in a container.

I have no question that bananas skin releases ethylene however the skin tends to rot very easily and grow mold in wet envirement. That's bad news for germinating seeds. This is why I have heat treated the soil before mixing in the seeds and adding water so no mold can form.
This is how it's done in agricultural laboratories. I used a small styrofoam box with a tight lid as container to retain a stable temperature. And bought a good thermometer poke a hole with it into the box till it reaches the soil to check the Temperature and know which is the best spot in the fridge for a 9 celcius at night and 15 celcius at morning. I end up moving this box up at day and putting it down lower in the fridge at night where I keep vegetables around 14/15 celcius.
Anyways it worked.

The sulfuric acid breaks dormancy by etching the seed coat which helps water permeates it. You only need about 2~3 minutes to break dormancy this way then wash the seeds and set for germination. It would have been much quicker this way.
Sidisheikh.mehriz attached the following image(s):
IMG_20210923_204945.jpg (4,755kb) downloaded 29 time(s).
IMG_20210923_205038.jpg (6,467kb) downloaded 31 time(s).
IMG_20210923_205717.jpg (4,678kb) downloaded 30 time(s).
 
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