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Why can't Fumaric Acid bind to NMT or DMT-n-Oxide? Options
 
fathomlessness
#1 Posted : 3/1/2019 1:13:03 PM

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Chemically I mean. I remeber reading they wont but from some reading Infundibulum thinks it may be possible for oxides
 

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Mindlusion
#2 Posted : 3/1/2019 5:51:07 PM

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N-oxide is a weak base, with a pKa of 4.5, comparable to aniline. Amines are stronger bases usually with pKa's around 10. DMT is a fairly good base with a pKa of 8.6.

So amine oxides are basic enough to form salts with strong acids, fumaric is stronger than acetic acid, with a pka of 3.5 , so you could probably form a fumarate salt.

NMT can easily form fumarate salts, its an amine
Expect nothing, Receive everything.
"Experiment and extrapolation is the only means the organic chemists (humans) currrently have - in contrast to "God" (and possibly R. B. Woodward). "
He alone sees truly who sees the Absolute the same in every creature...seeing the same Absolute everywhere, he does not harm himself or others. - The Bhagavad Gita
"The most beautiful thing we can experience, is the mysterious. The source of all true art and science."
 
fathomlessness
#3 Posted : 3/2/2019 2:47:25 AM

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Mindlusion wrote:
N-oxide is a weak base, with a pKa of 4.5, comparable to aniline. Amines are stronger bases usually with pKa's around 10. DMT is a fairly good base with a pKa of 8.6.

So amine oxides are basic enough to form salts with strong acids, fumaric is stronger than acetic acid, with a pka of 3.5 , so you could probably form a fumarate salt.

NMT can easily form fumarate salts, its an amine


Thanks for the reply. If DMT-oxide could probably form a fumarate salt then after I do a FASA conversion, what is it that is still left in the acetone that is still active? Left over dmt-oxide that wont convert?

Thats good news NMT can form fumarate salts (i thought i read somewhere that it couldn't). I just want as much conversion of all active alkaloid as possible but what is left in the acetone is still distinctly like DMT (but its not because FASA no longer crashes any more crystal out).
 
Mindlusion
#4 Posted : 3/4/2019 5:45:09 PM

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fathomlessness wrote:
Mindlusion wrote:
N-oxide is a weak base, with a pKa of 4.5, comparable to aniline. Amines are stronger bases usually with pKa's around 10. DMT is a fairly good base with a pKa of 8.6.

So amine oxides are basic enough to form salts with strong acids, fumaric is stronger than acetic acid, with a pka of 3.5 , so you could probably form a fumarate salt.

NMT can easily form fumarate salts, its an amine


Thanks for the reply. If DMT-oxide could probably form a fumarate salt then after I do a FASA conversion, what is it that is still left in the acetone that is still active? Left over dmt-oxide that wont convert?

Thats good news NMT can form fumarate salts (i thought i read somewhere that it couldn't). I just want as much conversion of all active alkaloid as possible but what is left in the acetone is still distinctly like DMT (but its not because FASA no longer crashes any more crystal out).


Likely it is just DMT that didn't precipitate. Either because your acetone contains traces of water, or you did not acidify fully. But even anhydrous acetone will hold onto traces of DMT fumarate. You can put the acetone in the fridge or freezer overnight to help push out the crystals
Expect nothing, Receive everything.
"Experiment and extrapolation is the only means the organic chemists (humans) currrently have - in contrast to "God" (and possibly R. B. Woodward). "
He alone sees truly who sees the Absolute the same in every creature...seeing the same Absolute everywhere, he does not harm himself or others. - The Bhagavad Gita
"The most beautiful thing we can experience, is the mysterious. The source of all true art and science."
 
fathomlessness
#5 Posted : 3/5/2019 4:10:12 AM

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Mindlusion wrote:
fathomlessness wrote:
Mindlusion wrote:
N-oxide is a weak base, with a pKa of 4.5, comparable to aniline. Amines are stronger bases usually with pKa's around 10. DMT is a fairly good base with a pKa of 8.6.

So amine oxides are basic enough to form salts with strong acids, fumaric is stronger than acetic acid, with a pka of 3.5 , so you could probably form a fumarate salt.

NMT can easily form fumarate salts, its an amine


Thanks for the reply. If DMT-oxide could probably form a fumarate salt then after I do a FASA conversion, what is it that is still left in the acetone that is still active? Left over dmt-oxide that wont convert?

Thats good news NMT can form fumarate salts (i thought i read somewhere that it couldn't). I just want as much conversion of all active alkaloid as possible but what is left in the acetone is still distinctly like DMT (but its not because FASA no longer crashes any more crystal out).


Likely it is just DMT that didn't precipitate. Either because your acetone contains traces of water, or you did not acidify fully. But even anhydrous acetone will hold onto traces of DMT fumarate. You can put the acetone in the fridge or freezer overnight to help push out the crystals


Woah, so if there was hypothetically water in the acetone, when you put the acetone in the freezer will the water (containing dmt-fumarate) freeze and sink?
 
Mindlusion
#6 Posted : 3/5/2019 6:35:57 AM

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fathomlessness wrote:
Mindlusion wrote:
fathomlessness wrote:
Mindlusion wrote:
N-oxide is a weak base, with a pKa of 4.5, comparable to aniline. Amines are stronger bases usually with pKa's around 10. DMT is a fairly good base with a pKa of 8.6.

So amine oxides are basic enough to form salts with strong acids, fumaric is stronger than acetic acid, with a pka of 3.5 , so you could probably form a fumarate salt.

NMT can easily form fumarate salts, its an amine


Thanks for the reply. If DMT-oxide could probably form a fumarate salt then after I do a FASA conversion, what is it that is still left in the acetone that is still active? Left over dmt-oxide that wont convert?

Thats good news NMT can form fumarate salts (i thought i read somewhere that it couldn't). I just want as much conversion of all active alkaloid as possible but what is left in the acetone is still distinctly like DMT (but its not because FASA no longer crashes any more crystal out).


Likely it is just DMT that didn't precipitate. Either because your acetone contains traces of water, or you did not acidify fully. But even anhydrous acetone will hold onto traces of DMT fumarate. You can put the acetone in the fridge or freezer overnight to help push out the crystals


Woah, so if there was hypothetically water in the acetone, when you put the acetone in the freezer will the water (containing dmt-fumarate) freeze and sink?


No, it will stay dissolved (think vodka)
Expect nothing, Receive everything.
"Experiment and extrapolation is the only means the organic chemists (humans) currrently have - in contrast to "God" (and possibly R. B. Woodward). "
He alone sees truly who sees the Absolute the same in every creature...seeing the same Absolute everywhere, he does not harm himself or others. - The Bhagavad Gita
"The most beautiful thing we can experience, is the mysterious. The source of all true art and science."
 
 
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