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Veganism and Insects: To Kill or Not To Kill Any Being? Options
 
antares
#21 Posted : 2/1/2019 7:40:26 PM

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I am not vegan and I enjoy animal products in my food but I have had a change of heart regarding killing insects or other creatures for no good reason. This change happened after a mushroom trip. Previously, I would think nothing of using insecticide sprays, mouse traps and other assorted pest control devices to get rid of what I thought was vermin.

After my trip, I stopped killing flies, spiders, snails and other so called pests. One of the thoughts that went through my mind during the trip was that everything has a role in this world. Flies might be disgusting to us but they carry bacteria around enabling the putrefaction process to happen and maggots break down organic matter a process which is essential for the circle of life to continue. In a similar way, every one of these 'disgusting pests' plays some vital role in nature. It is not their fault that populations sometimes explode. More often than not it is a direct result of man interfering with nature (like farming etc etc). On a more 'human' note, they are already struggling to stay alive and avoid becoming something else's meal without us trying to kill them merely because we don't like them.

I don't welcome them into my house and garden and I will drive them out but I try to stop short of killing them. The one exception to this has been mosquitoes. The little bastards won't take the hint when I try to shoo them away and come back to bite and they then get squashed.

I don't have any qualms about eating non vegetarian food. My view is that it is perfectly natural for animals (and plants) to feed on each other. What I cannot stand anymore is killing something for no good reason. Big game hunters disgust me but people hunting on a limited scale for subsistence is alright with me.
 

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FranLover
#22 Posted : 2/1/2019 8:30:14 PM

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antares wrote:

I don't welcome them into my house and garden and I will drive them out but I try to stop short of killing them. The one exception to this has been mosquitoes. The little bastards won't take the hint when I try to shoo them away and come back to bite and they then get squashed.

I don't have any qualms about eating non vegetarian food. My view is that it is perfectly natural for animals (and plants) to feed on each other. What I cannot stand anymore is killing something for no good reason. Big game hunters disgust me but people hunting on a limited scale for subsistence is alright with me.


1. Exactly. It is perfectly natural for beings to eat each other. Clearly.
2. The thing is that this killing of animals means the killing of animals to us, as we are two human beings speaking here and can not seperate ourselves from the idea or our senses in general. So for the Dasein* killing and eating animals truly means treating them like objects with no spirit. Breaders bread them, calfs are fattened, we kill them horribly. One must admit that as a Dasein, a human existing, this may seem normal but that no where in nature does it replicate itself in such a grotesque, brutal manner. And even if it did, would we really wish to align ourselves with the worst of the animal kingdom? Zombie creating parasites, snakes, and spiders?
The human being knows that it is a being. He has a fourth dimension that other animals do not posses. Would God or the Dmt trip aprove of higher dimensional beings not utilizing the gifts given to them (mental prowess) and continuing to live like an animals, smacking people around and being violent? And to eat a being is to be violent! Clearly.
3. No one hunts or plants their own food anymore. Not natural.


*Dasein is a German word that means "being there" or "presence", and is often translated into English with the word "existence". It is a fundamental concept in the existential philosophy of Martin Heidegger, particularly in his magnum opus Being and Time.
I'm wild again
Beguiled again
A simpering, whimpering child again
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered
am I
 
dragonrider
#23 Posted : 2/1/2019 10:57:05 PM

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FranLover wrote:
antares wrote:

I don't welcome them into my house and garden and I will drive them out but I try to stop short of killing them. The one exception to this has been mosquitoes. The little bastards won't take the hint when I try to shoo them away and come back to bite and they then get squashed.

I don't have any qualms about eating non vegetarian food. My view is that it is perfectly natural for animals (and plants) to feed on each other. What I cannot stand anymore is killing something for no good reason. Big game hunters disgust me but people hunting on a limited scale for subsistence is alright with me.


1. Exactly. It is perfectly natural for beings to eat each other. Clearly.
2. The thing is that this killing of animals means the killing of animals to us, as we are two human beings speaking here and can not seperate ourselves from the idea or our senses in general. So for the Dasein* killing and eating animals truly means treating them like objects with no spirit. Breaders bread them, calfs are fattened, we kill them horribly. One must admit that as a Dasein, a human existing, this may seem normal but that no where in nature does it replicate itself in such a grotesque, brutal manner. And even if it did, would we really wish to align ourselves with the worst of the animal kingdom? Zombie creating parasites, snakes, and spiders?
The human being knows that it is a being. He has a fourth dimension that other animals do not posses. Would God or the Dmt trip aprove of higher dimensional beings not utilizing the gifts given to them (mental prowess) and continuing to live like an animals, smacking people around and being violent? And to eat a being is to be violent! Clearly.
3. No one hunts or plants their own food anymore. Not natural.


*Dasein is a German word that means "being there" or "presence", and is often translated into English with the word "existence". It is a fundamental concept in the existential philosophy of Martin Heidegger, particularly in his magnum opus Being and Time.

I think some animals also know that they are a being. We are a unique animal, but not THAT unique.

As for insects. Yes, you are right. We do treat them as objects. But maybe insects are in a sense objects, like plants are, or bacteria.
I don't think insects realy have feelings or any kind of counsciousness.

There's realy a huge difference between killing an ant, or killing a pig or a cow. Those animals are far more like us than we often are willing to admit.
 
antares
#24 Posted : 2/2/2019 12:02:23 AM

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My personal view is that humans are not a special or higher species in any way. We are just the most successful one at present and at some point, perhaps millions of years away, something else will take over and we will go the way of the dinosaurs.

I also don't agree with the view that mammals and birds and some other vertebrates are the only animals with feelings and consciousness. Even an invertebrate without a large brain like an octopus has shown emotions when dosed with MDMA. We understand and relate better with animals similar to us but that doesn't meant those unlike us are inferior in the feelings and emotions aspect. It is human nature to objectify anything that we don't hold dear. That is why horrors like slavery, the holocaust and various genocides happened.

I feel more sorrow in seeing a large tree that has been living for hundreds of years felled down than in seeing an animal being humanely slaughtered for food. Perhaps it is because of my personal views or it might also be because a tree is by nature meant to live a long time and watch history pass while we are all far more transient species yet we have the power to destroy this life-form and we do so without a thought.

I also disagree that snakes, spiders, parasites and other disease causing bugs are the worst of the animal kingdom and are somehow evil or less worthy of life. Everything has a purpose in this world. The purpose of disease and pestilence IMO is to weed out weaker members of a species so that the collective gene-pool of the species becomes better suited for surviving in that environment. Even viruses whose only job is to infect other organisms have a purpose. They are the biggest inducer of DNA changes in any organism. They keep the pot of evolution churning by splicing their DNA into other organisms and inducing mutations.

Western society has very polarised views on most subjects including disease, death and other creatures / people. Most of these are regarded as either good or bad. I think this is over-simplifying the issue. While I wouldn't want a horrible disease or wish it on anyone, I accept that it has to happen to make people die and create room for more life to fill the void left behind.

Everything has a role in the world. Just because we don't like it or understand it's importance in the big picture doesn't make it lower or less important IMO.
 
FranLover
#25 Posted : 2/2/2019 2:11:44 AM

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Dragonrider Smile do you imagine if ants died just as bad as pigs but we just cant hear their screams or see their ruckus because we are too big? Big grin A possibility, though not very likley.
And Antares...so you suffer more watching a tree be cut down then a chicken have its neck cut off? Both are bad, but the chicken without the head is a sight to behold....really ugly.

After that trip I had another one where most of this stuff came together. Lying in bed after some changa I understood that every mother is my mother...so for me to eat a cow is like me eating my mom! Because a cow is a calfs mother, most likley. So I am not just eating a cow, but a little calfs mother!Crying or very sad Now I am sober and I still understand this insight I had. Its fresh in me...
...and now I should respect the three year rule and zip it Laughing
I'm wild again
Beguiled again
A simpering, whimpering child again
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered
am I
 
antares
#26 Posted : 2/2/2019 7:33:52 AM

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FranLover wrote:
Dragonrider Smile do you imagine if ants died just as bad as pigs but we just cant hear their screams or see their ruckus because we are too big? Big grin A possibility, though not very likley.
And Antares...so you suffer more watching a tree be cut down then a chicken have its neck cut off? Both are bad, but the chicken without the head is a sight to behold....really ugly.

After that trip I had another one where most of this stuff came together. Lying in bed after some changa I understood that every mother is my mother...so for me to eat a cow is like me eating my mom! Because a cow is a calfs mother, most likley. So I am not just eating a cow, but a little calfs mother!Crying or very sad Now I am sober and I still understand this insight I had. Its fresh in me...
...and now I should respect the three year rule and zip it Laughing


We don't know how ants react to dying / existential threats. They certainly scurry away frantically from noxious chemical stimuli and fire, and they fight fiercely to save themselves..... I think they certainly do their version of screaming and having a ruckus but we are unable to perceive it because of how different our communication systems are.

When I was little, we weren't very well off and we had to grow a lot of our own food (both vegetables and animals). I was taught from a fairly early age how to prepare a number of different types of animals for the table. It was something I did every few weeks for more than a decade. It wasn't an enjoyable task but it wasn't anymore difficult than other other tasks we were assigned around the house and garden. Looking back, I am very grateful for having had this experience. Curiously, it has taught me to value every life no matter how big or small or active or inert, while living as close as possible to the way nature designed us to live (within the limits of modern lifestyles).

Regarding the trees, I find it quite depressing to see large trees that have been standing for hundreds of years being treated as a commodity to be utilised by an organism with a fleeting lifespan for its profit. I don't have this issue with grain or vegetables or even wood from trees in a forest planted for that purpose. I have the same problem with people going out and hunting wild animals for sport. To me these are both completely unnecessary and destructive activities and a pointless waste of life.

My current job involves helping people undergoing a lot of physical and emotional suffering. I have become reasonably good at compartmentalising (not brushing away or hiding) emotional responses and dealing with it by critical analysis at a later date. I think you and I are looking at things from very different perspectives. It seems to me that you are reacting to how things make you feel as a person and individual while I am looking at it from the laws of nature and one life yielding for another life to flourish......and the cycle continuing point of view.

It is nice to have a discussion where people can talk calmly about their views on this topic without it turning into people preaching their personal philosophies to others.
 
FranLover
#27 Posted : 2/2/2019 2:09:36 PM

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antares wrote:

My current job involves helping people undergoing a lot of physical and emotional suffering.

Similar to what a psychotherapist, or doctor, would do.

antares wrote:
have become reasonably good at compartmentalising (not brushing away or hiding) emotional responses and dealing with it by critical analysis at a later date. I think you and I are looking at things from very different perspectives. It seems to me that you are reacting to how things make you feel as a person and individual while I am looking at it from the laws of nature and one life yielding for another life to flourish......and the cycle continuing point of view.


Yes feeling through life sounds like me. I even have a name for it: my Fingerspitzengefühl. But it is in symbiosis with this more objective look at reality, the circle of life, so we very much speak of the same thing. We speak the same language brotherBig grin What are your experiences with this circle of life knowledge, the way, and your psychedelic of choice? You already know that for me dmt made me stop eating a lot of stuff, but it has yet to make me quit smoking tobacco! 😂 quitting stuff is a typical sign of experiencing a religuous calling or psychedelic trip.

antares wrote:
it is nice to have a discussion where people can talk calmly about their views on this topic without it turning into people preaching their personal philosophies to others.


Its the internet, you can do anything!Laughing
I'm wild again
Beguiled again
A simpering, whimpering child again
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered
am I
 
Camponotus
#28 Posted : 2/2/2019 10:20:31 PM

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Sounds like a crazy trip Big grin

I am 90% vegetarian too/ pescarian to be honest... I like seafood Big grin but may the shrimps trip comes along the way Sick

I worship ants since I was 12 years old maybe...
Moreover my whole life!

I use(d) to kept/keeping them and watch/observe them fulfill their regime (I'm ambivalent/unsure about the ethics of doing this)


Ants : Nature's secret power
I recommend this "movie" to everyone out there, it's really worth a watch!

For keeping them I have to feed them
Besides water and honey/sugar
They eat other insects/there are somehow "vegan" ants too, but they eat/need some proteins in form of insects too even though to a negligible degree!
I started with buying frozen flies or crickets which I had to freeze as a young boy!
By now I only fede them what is "annoying" me... and I feel guilty everytime if something is "annoying" me and I kill it out of this foolish reason...
So somedays I invest a great amount of time in harm reduction and try to catch the fly or the wasp or whatever with a cup or a towel and bring them outside to let them go their ways!
I was unsure if this is somehoe way too much of kindness but I come across some peeps on the internet who claimed that they do it always like this, so I felt this is a worthwhile investment of time and effort somehow...
I let my intuition and the need of my colony decide how much flies and beetles I'm goin to kill!
I hand clap them! Fast and powerful!

I always thought about eatin insects myself is something I could live with more easily than like eatin tuna and risk eating a dolphin (don't wanna put the dolphin before the tuna) but somehow the cuteness scale or whatever romantic human thinking is underlying of this mentality...
Most people would rather eat a pig than a horse...
There's something common to it...
Like with everything I am trying something new to me I overdo it somehow..
So half year ago or maybe more my discounter started selling these worm beetle burger pattys and nuggets...
I ate probably two weeks about every / every second day these products with different other foods together... like with rice or salad or bread and so on
I came to the conclusion that it's probably more ecologic and efficient to eat insects/ on the other hand I had still eaten meat...
So worm or cow... Thumbs down

What's about the seafood?!... I don't know...
I hope for a cure somehow but I still enjoy eating it from time to time...

Choose yourself!
size doesn't matter
as well as the dolphin isn't considered a "better being" as the tuna (morally speaking)

if you want a bit release on this pressure...
think about a 22million tribe ants colony which is crossing through the jungle...
you don't even have to annoy them
they are gonna make their way through you... now matter if you climb a tree or bury yaself in the ground!
they don't think twice
and somehow you can meditate them flies away but if you won't meditate till they're hungered and dried...
give love or CLAP Surprised Embarrased Rolling eyes Confused Shocked Drool Sick Twisted Evil Wut? Wink Smile Stop Cool Thumbs down Sad Laughing Crying or very sad Thumbs up Smile Love Very happy Neutral Big grin
It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish. - J.R.R. Tolkien

How long will this last, this delicious feeling of being alive, of having penetrated the veil which hides beauty and the wonders of celestial vistas? It doesn't matter, as there can be nothing but gratitude for even a glimpse of what exists for those who can become open to it. - Alexander Shulgin
 
FranLover
#29 Posted : 2/2/2019 10:58:03 PM

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Camponotus wrote:
if you want a bit release on this pressure...
think about a 22million tribe ants colony which is crossing through the jungle...
you don't even have to annoy them
they are gonna make their way through you... now matter if you climb a tree or bury yaself in the ground!
they don't think twice
and somehow you can meditate them flies away but if you won't meditate till they're hungered and dried...
give love or CLAP


LOL! Laughing I'll watch that video as soon as I watch three ecology videos for college...I dont like ants as much as you but weed edibles have enlightened me so much as to sit on the floor and watch ants cross for like 10 minutes. Its also amazing that when you kill them along a route of entry in the house the collony changes routes. Have you read E. O Wilson? He also LOVED ants and wrote some amazing books.
I used to fish regularly before this. I think watching the caught fish die, killing them, and cutting them up for the oil fryer had a change in me that I did not perceive at the time but that ocurred unconsciously. Its like I dont want to eat anything that lived like I live now. My regular diet is fruit, edible or psychedelic mushrooms, polenta, spaghetti, bread, and yogurt and soy and rice (meatballs, burgers). Its not rationalized or anything. Thats why I love the topic now! I think that if one had an amazing indoor garden in the house, not only would gardening be intrinsically fulfilling and fruitful, but one could make ones own food...which is a start in freedom...self reliance.
I'm wild again
Beguiled again
A simpering, whimpering child again
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered
am I
 
Camponotus
#30 Posted : 2/3/2019 12:38:08 PM

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This year will be my first outdoor trial and error year of self supplying... I'm excited how much degree self supply I will reach Big grin I would be graceful at about 5% Very happy

Yeah have pretty much studied every ant knowledge source, own the Wilson & Hölldobler books and some others too!
It was somehow influencing me and smoothed the ways for my psychedelic experience... I had to be younger as stated in retrospective may I started with nine or ten because I smoked mariuhana first with the age of 13 and my interest in psychedelics developed then out of this cannabis experience always relating to understanding social interaction and being / the "meaning" of life / the purpose which I love to observe about my beloved little intelligences Smile
It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish. - J.R.R. Tolkien

How long will this last, this delicious feeling of being alive, of having penetrated the veil which hides beauty and the wonders of celestial vistas? It doesn't matter, as there can be nothing but gratitude for even a glimpse of what exists for those who can become open to it. - Alexander Shulgin
 
tatt
#31 Posted : 2/4/2019 2:48:20 PM

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I'll just leave this here for who cares to watch. To me the video speaks for itself. The apple doesn't fall far I don't think.

The world is complex, and it's not so easily categorized imo.

A bit of forewarning, it's a bit graphic.


Flight by wire

-9 SIGKILL

 
FranLover
#32 Posted : 2/4/2019 7:50:29 PM

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tatt wrote:
I'll just leave this here for who cares to watch. To me the video speaks for itself. The apple doesn't fall far I don't think.

The world is complex, and it's not so easily categorized imo.

A bit of forewarning, it's a bit graphic.




I saw this video a while ago yet every now and then remember the chimp that defended the one that was killed. Laughing The brain is a storehouse!
I'm wild again
Beguiled again
A simpering, whimpering child again
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered
am I
 
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