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Derilium after ibogaine flood dose, please help! Options
 
ComputerBoy
#1 Posted : 1/10/2019 10:45:10 PM
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Hi all,

We are psychonauts from the land of meditation and hypnosis. We intended to use iboga to help my wife to withdraw from her 10-year heroin addiction, because beside the almost no suffering detox, iboga can help addicts to review their life via lucid/waking dreams so that they can later integrate the lessons given by the trip into their life for a sustainable change/withdrawal (opposed to the very high rate of relapse, up to 90%, in traditional detox). I've tried ibogaine flood dose with severe vomiting, which is not very uncommon. But my wife's ibogaine flood dose resulted in an episode of delirium (acute confusional state) for 36 hours, which is "very rare", according to Ibogaine Alliance's guidelines for interventions > Acute Confusional State (ACS), and I've not read any trip report metioning that.

Here in Vietnam, there's no professional about iboga. But with the frustration of an addict voluntarily went to detox center many times with as many times relapsed like my wife, we decided to do research on the Internet and then trip sit each other. I always try first for better experience to trip sit my wife.

I've tried ibogaine 2 times: 1st in a test dose of 200mg total alkaloid (TA) extract with a very mild dreamy trip, and 2nd in a flood dose of 1000mg TA + 500mg ibogaine HCl with severe vomiting which expelled most of the ibogaine that I ingested and left me in an exhausted and messy dreamy state for about 5 hours. I know that vomiting is common side effect of iboga, but the curse is that it wasted most of my hundred dollar ibogaine and left me in a messy trip with no meaning. So then I prepared very well about antiemetics for my wife to make sure she won't vomit in her flood dose (she felt nausea in her test dose of 400mg TA.) She actually did not vomit, but after the flood dose, she encountered the following strange phenomenons that I've never known before, even though I've searched and read a lot about iboga:

  • 48 hours of ataxia opposed to the normal 4 hours. Just 1 hour after the first administration of 400 mg TA (& 30 mins after 2nd administration of 600 mg TA), she couldn't take any more capsules nor water.
  • Nonlucid dreams opposed to the normal lucid dreams while tripping. She could not remember a single thing in her dreams, and to her, the 48 hours trip was just a blank sleep.
  • Delirium with short-term memory loss after recovery from ataxia, opposed to the "integrative phase" (last phase) of the iboga experience: After 48 hours (full 2 days) of ataxia, she stay in bed for 12 hours more. Then in the next 12 hours, she wanted to go around for recovering, except some drowsy expression, I had not seen any strange sign. It was full 3 days (72 hours) after the flood dose administraion, seeing she's recovering, without any warning about delirium (I'd researched a lot before without seeing any one reported delirum related to iboga), after hearing she asked "I want to sit here resting, please buy me some drink!", seeing her sitting on a bench behind the barrier (there are safety barriers all along the river banks and on the bridge), I told her "just sit here enjoying these foods, don't go anywhere, I'm going buy you some drink and will be back soon." and went to the other side of the street to buy soft drink... but it took longer than I expected. 5 mins later I got back seeing her walking onto the bridge with an suicide attempt. She didn't remember what I told, felt that I'd left her for a very long time so that I seemed to abandon her. After the incident, she showed clear delirum with alternative episodes of drowsy and irritated states.

    I's definitely wrong leaving her alone, so I won't let it happen again.

    Here's the "trip report" of my wife's iboga flood dose from the trip sitter's (my) view:

    She prepared with 24 hours fasting, 8 hours no heroin (until these symptoms of withdrawal: watering eyes, running nose, shivering), and then 200mg dimenhydrinate + 50mg metoclopramide as antiemetics (anti-nausea). I dosed her 2000mg TA = 400mg TA orally + (30 mins later) 600mg TA orally + (1 hour later) 1000mg TA mixed with dragon fruit (I forgot to prepare yogurt) vaginally (because she couldn't take any capsule nor water by mouth, and refuse to be administrated via anus.) Then, throughout the 48 hours period of lying in bed she was nonlucid and could not remember a single thing in her dreams. In her nonlucid dreams, I see it's like "sleepwalking" more than mere dreaming: her mouth and hands act out all the time, and some times even voice was released. After 48 hours, she was out of ataxia, could sit up, talk, and handle cups & bottles; and finally after 60 hours (12 hours later) she could stand up and walk. But she's still in delirium with short-term memory loss for the next 36 hours, continuously switching between drowsy and irritated states. Only after totally full 4 days (96 hours = 60 + 36) she returned to her normal state. However, because she couldn't recall anything in her dreams induced by iboga, I couldn't help her to resolve any problem in her mind, nor to integrate any experience that iboga brought to her. Therefore, just a week after the iboga flood dose, she returned to the full dose of heroin just like before Sad.

    Weeks later, when I asked her to try to remember some things in the iboga induced dreams, she can recall few (1-2) brief dreams, just few but still better than in the first week after the flood dose when she couldn't recall anything. About the 36 hours of delirium, she recalled that she'd felt a great discomfort from the inside, that is similar to the "insects crawling in bone" feeling at the end of detox process in detox centers before, though with much lesser degree. Because of that bad feeling, she had been very craving for heroin right after ataxia (just when she could talk again). So; after 36 hours of delirium, I brought her back home and she immediately restarted her first dose of heroin about 1/5 of the full dose before ibogaine treatment.

    And here's a brief record of the flood dose to my wife:

    Aug 17th, 23:00, last meal
    Aug 18th, 16:00, last heroin dose
    Aug 19th, 0:30, 400mg TA + 100mg dimenhydrinate + 30mg metoclopramide
    Aug 19th, 1:00, 600mg TA + 100mg dimenhydrinate + 20mg metoclopramide
    Aug 19th, 1:30, she begin to feel ataxic
    Aug 19th, 2:15, 1000mg TA mixed with dragon fruit (I forgot to prepare yogurt) inserted into her vagina (because she couldn't take any capsule nor water by mouth, and refuse to be administrated via anus.) This dose should be 500mg HCl as planned but I'd forgotten to bring the ibogaine HCl.
    Aug 19th, 12:00, I held her to the toilet for urination while she was very ataxic.
    Aug 19th, 22:00, she urinated in the bed while dreaming, without notifying me.
    Aug 20th, 1:45, 200mg TA inserted to rectum because I see some syndromes like withdrawal: yawning, shivering, goose bumping, sweating
    Aug 20th, 6:30, she urinated in the bed while dreaming, without notifying me.
    Aug 21st, 1:30, she's out of ataxia, could talk to me and handle cups.
    Aug 21st, 13:00, she sat up and can walk weakly.
    Aug 22nd - 23rd, delirium with short-term memory loss

    Only recently, after her drug-using relationships were broken almost entirely (due to some arrests and some financial breakdown), I can have time to write write this post, and can get her back to hypnosis for reviewing the causes & effects of drug using. In a hypnosis session last week, I could let her view the whole course of her drug using and address her to the root cause of those suffering, and she cried a lot. Right after that, she could feel the pain in her arms where there're many injection scars (previously she couldn't feel any pain there), and she was so afraid of the substance that she couldn't let her eyes see that white substance Sick. I instructed her not to look away but to face the fear and turn it into the action of reducing drug consumption, preparing for the next flood dose of ibogaine. Pleased

    With my experience of meditation and hypnosis, I see clearly the benefit of "life review", not only in drug withdrawal but also in all other life changing events. That's why I've been very expecting good results from ibogaine flood dosing, for its "lucid dreaming" feature. But until now, neither me nor my wife has experienced that lucid dreaming. Sad

    Anyone with experience with iboga, please give us some advice! Smile

    P.S.
    We're obviously lacking knowledge and experience, but no way can we lack responsibility. These are our own lives, we're risking not because anyone wants to "do experiment" nor "play around", but because we're so desperate.
    If you're rich (of knowledge, expertise), please share your wealth if you can. Please don't assign your subjective opinions to our intention or attitude just because we made mistakes. Our hearts have been suffered enough, anyway!
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    PsyDuckmonkey
    #2 Posted : 1/10/2019 11:23:24 PM

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    Oh dear f God! Reading your other thread, I thought you were interested in giving your wife Iboga, and now you say you already did and it resulted in an abreaction?

    It was downright painful reading the account of your 'surprise'. What riverbank?!! Why did you have to go BUY shit for her, leaving her ALONE, in a public, dangerous place, in a state of delirium, as opposed to being in a safe area, with food, drink, medical equipment, and all that?

    Based on this, you have no business hypnotizing people or giving them drugs. You have exhibited a gross disrespect for the mental and corporeal safety of others, massive lack of responsibility, a complete absence of the basic safeties that need to be observed with psychoactives a hundred times less dangerous than flaming Iboga of all things.

    Confused Mad Shocked Crying or very sad

    Stop Stop Stop Stop Stop
    Stop. Just stop. Cease and desist.
    Stop Stop Stop Stop Stop

    You need to stop playing around with the sanity of your wife. You're clearly not qualified for this, in knowledge OR in attitude. Get her to a trained, qualified professional. Reflect on what your role is in the lives of those around you, how you view others, how you view your role, and what the underlying feelings and calculations are behind your wish to be a savior.

    If you do give your wife Iboga again, it will be purely abuse and nothing else. So please don't. You're not on Earth to control others, whether for bad or for good. You can help, but helping means leaving freedom to choose and to heal. You've experimented a bit with yourself, so share knowledge with her. Teach her what you know. Invite her to join the Nexus and share her own story, ask her own questions. If she decides to self-medicate, tripsit for her. (Not like this though. If you feel like you might do something like this again, ask someone else to tripsit for her.)

    Stop Stop acting like your family are lab rats in a maze for you to roleplay being a scientist with.
    Do you believe in the THIRD SUMMER OF LOVE?
     
    ComputerBoy
    #3 Posted : 1/11/2019 1:17:45 AM
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    PsyDuckmonkey wrote:
    You have exhibited a gross disrespect for the mental and corporeal safety of others, massive lack of responsibility, a complete absence of the basic safeties that need to be observed with psychoactives a hundred times less dangerous than flaming Iboga of all things.


    Yes, I lack knowledge and experience of safety in psychedelics. I'm very sad about that! Sad But it doesn't mean I lack responsibility. I've done my best. Please don't blame others when you're not in their situation!

    PsyDuckmonkey wrote:
    Stop acting like your family are lab rats in a maze for you to roleplay being a scientist with.

    Please don't insult my love with such cruel words. You don't know how painful I'm, seeing my beloved being like that... so that you can say... like "rats in a maze" Crying or very sad Crying or very sad Crying or very sad oh no noooooooooo!

    I've never forced nor controlled nor "playing around" my beloved, nor "wish to be a savior." Even in hypnosis, I usually let her self-hypnotize...

    You really make me cry, PsyDuckmonkey! I'm really breathless reading your words... it's too painful in my chest.... Maybe you're too wise, too experienced, and we are too stupid.... But no matter how stupid we are, we can never have such heartless thoughts, never, no way! Sick Sick Sick

    Please give me knowledge or share your experience, don't give me blame and subjective judgement, please!


     
    ComputerBoy
    #4 Posted : 1/11/2019 1:35:50 AM
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    PsyDuckmonkey wrote:
    Get her to a trained, qualified professional.

    We simply cannot get that here in Vietnam.

    PsyDuckmonkey wrote:
    Reflect on what your role is in the lives of those around you, how you view others, how you view your role

    My role is simply a close partner helping my wife doing what she want to do, just as her when she trip sit me (before her flood dose). We take dangerous drug (iboga) in the lack of professional just because it's "detox or die" for us. Maybe you don't know the frustration of an addict voluntarily went to detox center many times with as many times relapsed, like my wife. Sick

    If you're rich (of knowledge, expertise), please share your wealth if you can, but please don't blame the poor that "you such a heartless!" Our hearts have been suffered enough, please don't insult anymore!

     
    ComputerBoy
    #5 Posted : 1/11/2019 2:18:53 AM
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    PsyDuckmonkey's words remind me about the statements that "clean people" usually blame on the "junkies" while they've never known the suffering those "junkies" bearing.

    As shared on the intro essay:
    Quote:
    We all are exploring our deep ocean of mind to free ourselves from our miseries in our lives.

    We approach psychedelics not for fun, nor for "science", nor for experiment, nor anything except to resolve our miseries in life! Crying or very sad

    There're so few doctors can have such empathy with the addicts as Dr. Gabor Maté:

     
    dragonrider
    #6 Posted : 1/11/2019 5:37:19 PM

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    I would advise you not to give her iboga, or any other psycho active drug again.

    The levels of noribogaine in her blood will be very high for several months. That can be very dangerous in combination with several other substances. MAOI's, SSRI's, SDRI's, and maybe a lot of other stuff like stimulants and sedatives as well.

    That is something to take very seriously for the next few months. As long as there is a lot of noribogaine in her blood, ayahuasca might kill her. Antidepressants might kill her.

    Unfortunately, ibogaine is not without risk.
    It can weigh heavy on the body as well as the mind.

    Look at it as if she is recovering from a serious illness. Because that is actually the phase she is in right now.

    It will just take some time.
    Try to live a healthy lifestile. That is the best way to recover from any kind of sickness.
     
    Tony6Strings
    #7 Posted : 1/12/2019 1:27:26 PM

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    I am a big advocate of medication assisted replacement therapy when it comes to recovery from long term heroin addiction. Is there a methadone clinic near where you live? Get there. It works. I wish you and your wife all the best please be safe.
    olympus mon wrote:
    You need to hit it with intention to get where you want to be!

    "We have arrived at truth, and now we find truth is a mystery- a play of joy, creation, and energy. This is source. This is the mystic touchstone that heals and renews. This is the beginning again. This is entheogenic." -Nicholas Sand
     
    dragonrider
    #8 Posted : 1/12/2019 2:18:52 PM

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    Tony6Strings wrote:
    I am a big advocate of medication assisted replacement therapy when it comes to recovery from long term heroin addiction. Is there a methadone clinic near where you live? Get there. It works. I wish you and your wife all the best please be safe.

    Except, she now has basically a very potent MAOI in her bloodstream for the next few months. It can last up to 6 months in extreme cases.
     
    Ulim
    #9 Posted : 1/12/2019 2:38:42 PM

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    There are so many things wrong here. Where do i even start.

    First off. Flood dose.
    Not only a bad idea but you also put this into practice terribly. Iboga is safe when used and dosed correctly but there are many cases of people dying with Iboga as a factor. You cant just expect a higher dose to work better. I mean you should know this. Its the same for heroin. You just DIE from upping the dose you dont get more wanted effects. Im no expert with iboga but that dosage is to high in my opnion. ESPECIALLY since you already noticed a bad reaction.

    Second Dimenhydrinate.

    You should have NEVER GIVEN HER THIS. Dimenhydrinate is a mixture of a stimulant (8-chlorotheophylline a type of synthetic caffeine) and a deliriant(diphenhydramine also known as benadryl). If dosed correctly it supressed vomiting. Usually you only use 50-100mg with a max of 400mg a day.
    At that dose and mixed with iboga its highly likely that this caused the extended delirium.
    Not to forget about metoclopramide i dont know much about this but I wouldnt EVER mix that with either dimenhydrinate or iboga either since it does affect dopamine and serotonin receptors.

    Third redosing
    WHY did you ever have the idea to REDOSE her after she was already showing symptoms that are NOT what you expected. This is so wrong.

    Fourth Leaving her alone outside
    I dont know how you ever thought that was a good idea either. You first absolutely blast her with drugs then you just abandon her???? You want to act like a shaman or healer so act like it. Do it right and dont leave her alone. ESPECIALLY NOT IN A DELIRIUM.

    SHE COULD HAVE DIED READ UP MORE AND ASK HERE BEFORE YOU EVER ATTEMPT ANYTHING AGAIN SINCE YOU DO NOT KNOW SAFE PRACTICE Mad

    You should get her a doctor to check her up to see if she is still okay. And you should also get her a medical proffesional to treat the addiction since you dont help her either.
     
    Ulim
    #10 Posted : 1/12/2019 2:46:31 PM

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    Also can you give info on your wife. How is she doing after that. You definetly dont want to put that concoction anywhere near her for more than a year. Let her recover from your mad science experiments.
     
    dragonrider
    #11 Posted : 1/12/2019 4:18:30 PM

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    If you are going to take her to a doctor....MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE they know what you gave her.
    And if they don't know what iboga is, wich unfortunately is not unlikely....MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE that they inform themselves about iboga before they give her any kind of treatment or prescription. MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE they know there's lots of noribogaine in her blood, and how this under no condition is to be combined with MAOI's, SSRI's, etc.

    This is about as serious as it gets.

    I hope your everything is well with your wife, and stays well.
     
    grollum
    #12 Posted : 1/12/2019 4:34:57 PM

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    I don't know where in Vietnam you sit, but there are some people in northern Thailand which seem to have experience with Iboga https://www.ibogaine-thailand.net/

    I don't know anything about those people but they might have some more insights regarding people who work with Iboga in your area. Just wanted to mention that.
     
    ComputerBoy
    #13 Posted : 1/13/2019 9:07:14 AM
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    dragonrider wrote:
    The levels of noribogaine in her blood will be very high for several months.

    Thank you for your reminding! As written in the trip record above, the last dose of iboga (the flood dose) was from Aug 17th. Until now, it's been full 5 months, so I think it's ok for trying the next. Of course, on the safe side, I realy want to check for the amount of noribogaine left in my wife's body, is there a way to check that?


    dragonrider wrote:
    Look at it as if she is recovering from a serious illness. Because that is actually the phase she is in right now.

    Do you mean that her delirium after iboga flood dose was due to her previous illness, or the delirium itself is an illness?

     
    ComputerBoy
    #14 Posted : 1/13/2019 9:24:34 AM
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    Tony6Strings wrote:
    Is there a methadone clinic near where you live? Get there.

    Oh no! We'd never touch methadone!!! We' ve got many methadone addicts here... they're all very craving for heroin and we've seen many times they overdosed on heroin whenever heroin is available to them. We never want to replace a shark (heroin) with a monster octopus (methadone)Twisted Evil. The monster octopus is hiding deep inside our muscles, so sneaky that it takes ten times more difficult to detox than heroin. To us, methadone is much more devil than heroin.
     
    ComputerBoy
    #15 Posted : 1/13/2019 10:14:17 AM
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    Ulim wrote:

    Second Dimenhydrinate.

    You should have NEVER GIVEN HER THIS. Dimenhydrinate is a mixture of a stimulant (8-chlorotheophylline a type of synthetic caffeine) and a deliriant(diphenhydramine also known as benadryl). If dosed correctly it supressed vomiting. Usually you only use 50-100mg with a max of 400mg a day.

    I was very concious about the delirium side effect of anti-nausia drugs. So, I chosed dimenhydrinate in stead of diphenhydramine because Dimenhydrinate are less likely to cross the blood-brain barrier than diphenhydramine, so the delirium side effect would be minimized.

    Ulim wrote:

    Fourth Leaving her alone outside
    ... ESPECIALLY NOT IN A DELIRIUM.

    I's definitely wrong, so I won't let it happen again.
    Just a little note about the situation at that time:
    - 1st, I had not seen signs of delirium until the incident of leaving her
    - 2nd, It was full 3 days (72 hours) after the flood dose administraion, seeing she's recovering, without any warning about delirium (I'd researched a lot before without seeing any one reported delirum related to iboga), after hearing she asked "I want to sit here, please buy me some drink!", seeing her sitting on a bench behind the barrier (there are safety barriers all along the river banks and on the bridge), I just went to the other side of the street to buy soft drink... but it took longer than I expected.
     
    ComputerBoy
    #16 Posted : 1/13/2019 10:19:05 AM
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    dragonrider wrote:
    If you are going to take her to a doctor....MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE they know what you gave her.
    ... MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE they know there's lots of noribogaine in her blood, and how this under no condition is to be combined with MAOI's, SSRI's, etc.

    Thank you a lot for the valuable warning!
     
    ComputerBoy
    #17 Posted : 1/13/2019 10:20:41 AM
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    grollum wrote:
    I don't know where in Vietnam you sit, but there are some people in northern Thailand which seem to have experience with Iboga https://www.ibogaine-thailand.net/

    Thank you very much for the suggestion!
     
    null24
    #18 Posted : 1/13/2019 5:30:37 PM

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    ComputerBoy wrote:
    Tony6Strings wrote:
    Is there a methadone clinic near where you live? Get there.

    Oh no! We'd never touch methadone!!! We' ve got many methadone addicts here... they're all very craving for heroin and we've seen many times they overdosed on heroin whenever heroin is available to them. We never want to replace a shark (heroin) with a monster octopus (methadone)Twisted Evil. The monster octopus is hiding deep inside our muscles, so sneaky that it takes ten times more difficult to detox than heroin. To us, methadone is much more devil than heroin.

    Please stop thinking this way. Yes it carries the huge stigma you talk about, and success is largely dependant not just on the patient but on the culture within the clinic one attends, but it has saved my life. The people you describe are the most visible, you don't notice the ones who are getting their lives back-and back in order. This is a stigma i fight everyday by being open about my recovery. Abstinence and 12 steps are still the go to here.

    What is the state of addiction Tx in Vietnam, i can only shudder... I haven't the slightest clue what things are like for an addict in Vietnam, i would guess you have challenges i don't face here in the states, but that may be my myopic Americanism at work. I wish you-and your wife, whom i have no doubt of your love or concern for.

    You should be very thankful for the responses you got here. It is too bad that something like iboga and the powerful tool that it is is so hard to access. You would do well to listen carefully to what the above posters have said, and consider taking more time before acting. I know it seems like the world is ending where your wife is now but if she dies trying to get clean it would all be for naught. All of it.
    Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
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