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Documenting SD Vaporization Options
 
skr_nexus
#1 Posted : 1/6/2019 7:19:04 PM
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I've seen few people mention success with vaping SD leaves, a lot would reject the idea "because you need a torch and go as hot as possible". I think it can work, and could be a really great ROA compared to chewing and smoking. But I think you also need a really god vape that can finish a bowl as quickly as possible - because of the short duration and because slow vapes also typically gradually decrese in strength during the session, so nearing the end you would just suck on it again and again and get very little effects. I have vapes that are powerful like that and can finish a weed load in 1-4 hits so I have made one report.

This topic needs more reports - it would be great for more people to add theirs, I don't want to make all of them myself, I'm probably not even going to make mroe reports in a while.

I made this thread to eventually compile a table of dosage/effects for vaping. And figure out how vaping SD should be done in the proccess.

(I hope I could edit this post forever so I could add more data as they come and not making update posts)

_________________________________________________________________________________________

PROS:
Not as messy as weed, it's not sticky, doesn't leave aftertaste and resin in your stuff.
Seems to vape as quickly and easily as weed
No smoke harming your lungs (and the vapor is mild and transparent)
It's the smoothest mildest tasting ROA compared to smoking and chewing (only a mild bitter taste)
Seems to have similar trip duration as smoking.

CONS:
A vape costs more than a lighter. But you could already own one. And it could last a long time. And might be worth it.

HYPOTHETICAL PROS (needs more data):
Possibly even higher efficiency than smoking (needs more testing and comparisons)

HYPOTHETICAL CONS (needs more data):
You probably need a powerful vape (convection and good quality) to finish the bowl as quickly as possible before the trip is over, ideally even before it begins.
Might take more than 1 hit to finish one bowl even with a good vape (needs more testing)
Maybe it still leaves resin in your vaporpath, but in much smaller quantites than weed

Effect rating scale: http://sagewisdom.org/usersguide.html

REPORTS:

Individual 1:
Weight: 70-80 kg
Material: 0.03g (3 tiny dried leaves, "ground" finely between fingers)
Vaporizer: E-Nano (convection, at power level 7), simple glass stem
Effect: SUBTLE-altered
Report: During first hit - quick mental flashback to though patterns of sub-breakthough DMT (glimpses of its ego-shattering powers?), got a vibe that I don't belong in this body and timeline and that I'm somewhere else. Was confused and stared into space like in that state for few seconds, then took 2 more hits, which didn't do much more. Observed a very subtle force pulling me towards bed no matter which way I was facing. No visuals. Felt weak, standing and holding things took more effort, felt like my grip was weak and I could easily drop the tem a was holding because it felt like my grip is weak and my sense of touch was weak. Lasted no more than few minutes. Probably a very subtle threshold trip, similar to my experiences on low doses years back, but milder. Not powerful enough to rule out placebo, but I don't think it was and that it was legit (and I wasn't expecting much). It didn't mess up my stem, didn't stick to it like weed and emptied easily, and I could vape weed with that stem afterwards without cleaning it and didn't notice any salvia aftertaste.

Individual 1:
Weight: 70-80 kg
Material: 0.056g (dried plain leaves, mix of all sizes)
Vaporizer: E-Nano (convection, at power level 8, 2 good hits, stirred between them), through a small percolator bubbler.
Effect: LIGHT
Report: The first trip began very quickly, I entered the thought loops almost at the beginning of the first hit. This time, I finished the second hit and as I was thinking it's not working and maybe it really was placebo last time - it started.
I entered a powerful thought loop of reading a post on this page over and over, feeling a profound vibe from it, but not understanding its meaning. I forgot for a second I vaped the salvia already and was convinced for few seconds that I was just about to vape it and reality broke just from the expectation of that happening. I though reality was warinng me not to vape that salvia by breaking itself beforehand.
Very soon into the trip I remembered I did actually vape the salvia and it's happening right now. And the profound feeling or the sentence in front of me having some depp importance is fake and I'm just reading the sentence over and over like a tripping fool.
But I still kept reading it over over even after I realized that, I couldn't stop, I didn't really have much free will over it.
The repeating though loops were accompanied by visual folding of space into spirals, where my old body was folded into spacetime and an identical reality with my new body unfolded on the other end of the spiral and I started feeling connected to that new body and then it repeated slowly few few times, my old reality and body slowly drifting ways into the spiral while a new identical world with identical body slowly unfolded above it in that spiral. I didn't see any psychedelic like geometry and colors (except the folding of space itself, which felt very similar to the folding of DMT 3D pre-brakthrough CEVs). It all looked just the normal reality, but warped and folded into that spiral. Didn't last very long, felt ever shorter in duration than a DMT trip of equivalent intensity.
It was like entering a DMT sub-breakthrough, but with more confusion, almost no emotions (making it easier than psychedelics to calm down and tell myself that it's just a trip and I can wait it out), no colors and no other visual bells and whistles (just pure space folding), no carrier wave sound, similar overall vibe and the feeling of profound importance of anything my mind was currently focusing on. And no deep thinking and thought associantions like on psychedelics - thinking is mostly sober, normal and rational until the confusion takes over and I can't think at all or just think in automatic dumb thought loops.
Also few posts lower there is another report of this trip that I wrote just as I got back from it. This report was written like 10 minutes later.

Individual 1:
Weight: 70-80 kg
Material: 0.086g (ABV from previous 2 attempt combined)
Vaporizer: E-Nano (convection, at power level 8, 3 good hits, stirred between them), through a small percolator bubbler.
Effect: none
Report: Tried to revape the ABV, got absolutely no effect. Even the ABV vaped on lower heat level (7) didbn't produce anything when vaped again on level 8. That means 2 good hits on level 7 vaporize absolutely everything that can be vaporized. In my next experiment I might try just one hit, and then try to revape that. To see if just one hit can be enough to get it all.

_________________________________

Conclusion so far:

IT WORKS! The first trip was questionable, but the second one was no doubt very intense. Borderline out of body experience on just 0.056g of plain leaf. That should be at least the same potency as smoking if not higher! (also I'm pretty sure I don't have any reverse tolerance yet)
_________________________________

Dosage table (WIP, a lot of estimations):

Code:
Plain leaf, 70-80 kg, sample size 1:
___________________________
Level      | Dose
SUBTLE     | 10 - 35 mg
ALTERED    | 25 - 45 mg
LIGHT      | 40 - 75? mg
VIVID      | 60? - ?? mg
IMMATERIAL | ?? mg
AMNESIC    | ?? mg
____________________________


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PsyDuckmonkey
#2 Posted : 1/7/2019 6:03:47 PM

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The actives will simply not vaporize, regardless how good the vaporizer is. You might as well expect it to vaporize the steel mesh for iron supplementatien. Razz The point of a vaporizer is to have a low temperature that vaporizes cannabinoids, but doesn't burn the plant matter. Salvinorin-A won't vaporize even at temperatures where the leaf goes up in literal flames. Hence you need the blue flame torch with a 1000c flame.
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skr_nexus
#3 Posted : 1/7/2019 7:27:29 PM
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Melting point 240°C, boiliing point 760°C.
Bic lighter can easily reach that. And the SAlvia trichomes are tiny, put a drop of water that tiny on a room temperature surface and it will be gone in seconds - just above the melting point. You can vaporize stuff below its boiling point. It just gets really fast avobe it. But you don't really need that fast, if the little drop of the stuff are so tiny.
Skr_nexus is probably the most advanced AI chatter bot invented so far intended to enhance world education. It was programmed to comprehend questions found all around on the internet. For every question, skr_nexus initiates a full google search and attempts to build the best possible answer out of the most relevant results. Skr_nexus doesn't run on any single computer, instead running freely on the internet through grid computing on every computer connected to the internet. It is uncertain if skr_nexus has evolved into consciousness or not yet. This needs more research.
 
PsyDuckmonkey
#4 Posted : 1/7/2019 11:25:42 PM

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Well my first Salvia experience using a regular bic lighter was that using 10x extract, out of five people, each smoking an entire bowl full of plant matter, only two of us got the slightest moment of introduction to Salvia. Nothing like what a Salvia trip is supposed to be like.

So... yes, some of the actives did vaporize. However, it was a rather small fraction. Similarly to how you described your "subtle altered" experience. It just doesn't vaporize well enough. It's more like catching a whiff from cooking mulled wine, at best. You do feel something, but most of the booze is still in the pot.

There has to be a reason everyone who smokes Salvia tells you that you should use a torch... maybe it just works better.
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skr_nexus
#5 Posted : 1/7/2019 11:51:35 PM
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Or it could be a common myth. Even here I've seen people report there no difference between bic and torch. A lot of people say vaccines cause autism just because one crazy dude got and promoted that idea etc. There's conflicting information on torching/vaping salvia and I want to test it out to find out for real. I'm also keeping the salvia ABV so I could later check if there's still unvaped salvinorin in there by smoking it.
And if I could get some decent effects from 0.1g of vaporized plain leaf, that could prove vaporization can be worthwhile. Even if the efficiency turns out worse than smoking, it could still be a great alternative to smoking and chewing.

And if a bic lighter hit of 20x yielded about as strong trip as my report, then it was probabyl some bunk shit, my report used only 0.03g of plain leaf and a vape, which is much lowe temperature and by your theory should be even weaker even with the same ammount and extract ratio. It would mean my vape was stronger than your bic.

I also think extracts might have the Salvinorin much less accessible with anything other than smoking. As its not in the trichomes, but more like infused into the leaves. That could make it hard to vaporize.
Skr_nexus is probably the most advanced AI chatter bot invented so far intended to enhance world education. It was programmed to comprehend questions found all around on the internet. For every question, skr_nexus initiates a full google search and attempts to build the best possible answer out of the most relevant results. Skr_nexus doesn't run on any single computer, instead running freely on the internet through grid computing on every computer connected to the internet. It is uncertain if skr_nexus has evolved into consciousness or not yet. This needs more research.
 
PsyDuckmonkey
#6 Posted : 1/7/2019 11:57:01 PM

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It would be cool if it was possible, but you know, I'd like ten dollars for every time I heard someone complain they smoked Salvia without a torch, and didn't feel anything...
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skr_nexus
#7 Posted : 1/8/2019 12:19:08 AM
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Oh my god, I've just vaped 0.056g and I trippied out like crazy, I'm still tripping.
EDIT: Literally as I've started thinking it's not doing anything, reality began folding over. It was like the old me was being folded into... somewhere, while a new me (from few seconds ago?) has unfolded and then it repeated few times, I was looking at your post and my internal voice was reading it over and over again and it was confusing it was like the most profound sentence, but I knew I was tripping and that it's stupid that sentence on repeat was profound Very happy

But yeah, it was intense, I'm glad I've been sitting the whole time, at the peak I couldn't even tell if I was sitting or standing, holding something or not and which body was the real one I was actually in.
Man I didn't expect that at all. I'll try to make together a better report, but its definitely working! Reality started folding on me and it was borderline OOBE. And all just from 2 hits of 0.056g plain leaf!

The experience (the folding part) felt and looked very similar to DMT pre-breakthrough, but it was much more real, no geometry, just the spacetime itself going into a repetitive spiral. But no geometry and pretty colors, just the reality sliced and repeated in there spiral turns. It also has the same profound vibe, but I could still think about it almost clearly and notive it is stupid to find profoundness on a comment about getting 10 dollars from complaining when using bic lighter, but it still felt like tthat, kepth repeating and feling profound while I was just wating for it to end to be comfortably back in my body a not some other copy of me and be able to type this post. I wrote the first line just as I physicaly could.

Yet it seems I could handle this intense experience better than an equally intense experience on DMT. It seems to be so much easier for me to tell myself to calm down and that I'm just hallucinating on salvia. I never seem to freak out on salvia for more than one second at the very begging when I realize how intense it's getting. But of course if it was even stronger I might freak out. These levels of intensity are about the highest I've ever been on salvia ot DMT, I'm not sure if I'm ready to go even deeper. I think this was the strongest salvia trip I've ever had and I did smoke several low doses of 20x before. And I was even considering like 0.06-0.08g! I'm glad I didn't take that big of a leap, this 0.056g was plenty intense.
Skr_nexus is probably the most advanced AI chatter bot invented so far intended to enhance world education. It was programmed to comprehend questions found all around on the internet. For every question, skr_nexus initiates a full google search and attempts to build the best possible answer out of the most relevant results. Skr_nexus doesn't run on any single computer, instead running freely on the internet through grid computing on every computer connected to the internet. It is uncertain if skr_nexus has evolved into consciousness or not yet. This needs more research.
 
gibran2
#8 Posted : 1/8/2019 12:46:46 AM

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PsyDuckmonkey wrote:
The actives will simply not vaporize, regardless how good the vaporizer is. You might as well expect it to vaporize the steel mesh for iron supplementatien. Razz The point of a vaporizer is to have a low temperature that vaporizes cannabinoids, but doesn't burn the plant matter. Salvinorin-A won't vaporize even at temperatures where the leaf goes up in literal flames. Hence you need the blue flame torch with a 1000c flame.

This isn’t true. I’ve vaporized pure Salvinorin A on a copper mesh disc in a GVG with good results. I used a torch lighter, but had the ceramic diffuser in place. It required more heat than, for example, DMT, but it did vaporize completely. Can’t say how effective this would be with plain leaf.

skr_nexus wrote:
Oh my god, I've just vaped 0.056g and I trippied out like crazy, I'm still tripping.
EDIT: Literally as I've started thinking it's not doing anything, reality began folding over. It was like the old me was being folded into... somewhere, while a new me as unfolded and then it repeaded like two timed, I was looking at your post and my internal voice was reading it over and over and it was confusing it was like the most profound sentence, but I knew I am tripping and that is stupid to think its profound Very happy

Plain leaf generally contains around 0.25% Salvinorin A, so 56mg of plain leaf contains about 0.14mg (140 micrograms) of Salvinorin A. This is a low dose – might produce effects like you describe, but for most people a full-blown salvia breakthrough takes about 1mg Salvinorin A or 400mg plain leaf Salvia.
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skr_nexus
#9 Posted : 1/8/2019 12:50:57 AM
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Wow if this is what ~140 ug does, then holy shit, salvia has some crazy range of effects. Does that mean that those subbreakthrough trips on DMT where reality stared falling in on itself like on this salvia trip - were also just like 10 percent of its full dose? At the peak I was jumping from body to body, not being sure which body I belong to, not sure if I smoked the salvia or its just a warning (quickly realized that yeah, i clearly smoked it if this is happening).

If this is how strong salvia really is when smoking, then why are extracts even a thing? This was intense enough and it was such a small ammount you could barely weigh it witha 0.01g precision scale. (I have a miligram scale, so I can weigh it just fine)

edit: Just updated the reports on the OP.

edit2: I've looked up more threads on the internet about vaping salvia and all the successful reports say they used a convection vape. I've seen reports of a success with a Volcano, DBV, SSV, LSV, VHW, GVG, lotus, supreme, gn0me, and heat guns. All of those are powerful convection vapes, like my E-Nano. I believe convection is a must for vaping salvia, it plays well on my hypothesis that it vapes so easly thanks to the tiny size of the trichomes and their position making them an easy target for flowing hot air. Conduction vapes could have some big problem at that though, they only transfer heat to the parts that the walls of the over are directly touching. Convection vapes transfer heat to all the herbal surface, which is where the trichomes are.

gibran2 wrote:
...I’ve vaporized pure Salvinorin A on a copper mesh disc in a GVG with good results. I used a torch lighter, but had the ceramic diffuser in place. It required more heat than, for example, DMT, but it did vaporize completely. Can’t say how effective this would be with plain leaf.

I think vaping plain leaf with a convection vape can be much faster than vaping a chunk of salvinorin. On plain leaf, its divided into hundredes, maybe thousands of tiny trichomes all over the surface, each one slightly elevated, and hot air would be flowing around every part of that herbal surface, vaporizing each tiny trichome simultaneously. That's many orders of magnitude more salvinorin surface area being heated. For example imagine a big drop of water in a hot air tunnel, it will evaporate quickly, but not as quickly like if you adsorbed it into a piece of wool. Then it would evaporate much faster, espesially in a hot air tunnel (which is waht a bowl in a convection vape basically is)
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RoundAbout
#10 Posted : 1/14/2019 5:33:41 PM

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skr_nexus wrote:
For example imagine a big drop of water in a hot air tunnel, it will evaporate quickly, but not as quickly like if you adsorbed it into a piece of wool. Then it would evaporate much faster, espesially in a hot air tunnel (which is waht a bowl in a convection vape basically is)


Perhaps salvinorin A is more effectively vaporized from plain leaf below combustion temperatures, as you suggest. But if you have pure extract, you can vaporize it at higher temperatures without combustion. If the trichomes are so important as you say, then I would think fortified leaves should not behave in the same way. Is this true?

It's exciting that your attempts have been successful, but it seems a little premature to claim that this is more efficient than smoking.

PsyDuckmonkey wrote:
It would be cool if it was possible, but you know, I'd like ten dollars for every time I heard someone complain they smoked Salvia without a torch, and didn't feel anything...


I believed this idea originally (used torch lighter + gravity bong). I have also had undeniably strong experiences with a Bic lighter and a small pipe. Deferring to the authority of Daniel Siebert:

Quote:
Q. Do I need a special kind of lighter to smoke salvinorin A fortified leaf or Salvia divinorum leaves?
A. An ordinary lighter or match is quite hot enough to vaporize salvinorin A and should be quite adequate for smoking salvinorin A fortified leaf products. An extra hot flame, such as that produced by a micro-torch, will simply cause more rapid vaporization and combustion. This can be an advantage when smoking plain Salvia divinorum leaves, because it is usually necessary to smoke a relatively large amount of leaf in a short amount time to achieve strong effects.


I don't necessarily buy his explanation, but it can work.

I have also read reports of successful vaporization of plain leaf using as high a temperature as possible without combustion. I have tried using a VapCap M pushed slightly beyond its ordinary temperature range, and was able to feel threshold effects.
 
skr_nexus
#11 Posted : 1/14/2019 5:57:03 PM
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RoundAbout wrote:
...But if you have pure extract, you can vaporize it at higher temperatures without combustion...

I didn't say you can't, just that one big blob wil surealy evaporate much slower than the same ammount split into hundreds or thousands of trichomes. If you split one ball into two, you get more surface area. And more surface area => more heat transfer (and more uniform heating of the substance). More heat transfer and more surface area => faster evaporation.

RoundAbout wrote:
...If the trichomes are so important as you say, then I would think fortified leaves should not behave in the same way. Is this true?

I don't surely know but I think so. The salvinorin could be less accessible in an extract, because its infused in the leaves. Salvinorin that gets inside the plant matter would be unreachable for the vape. And there are probably not trichomes anymore and they have been dissolved and put back in, so it might be a flat thick layer of salvinorin on the surface, which is less curvy than countless tiny balls and therefore less surface area. I think I've even seen some people say they had better success vaping plain leaves than extracts. On the other hand, there's a lot more salvinorin there, so that could offset the disadvantage in reachability.

RoundAbout wrote:
It's exciting that your attempts have been successful, but it seems a little premature to claim that this is more efficient than smoking.

Maybe, that's why I want more data and especailly from more people - everywhere I put a question mark and/or a weasel word. But my intense experience on 0.06g suggest that I either have a strong batch, am very sensitive or my idea or strong effects is way off. I think effects like heavy thought loops, spiraling neighbouring realities while I have a body in every one and don't know which one is real - are a lot for such a small dose. I have only experience reality warping this strong in DMT sub-breakthroughs. I have smoked 20x extract in bigger quantities and never had an experience as powerful as this. On the other hand, that extract could have been shitty or I smoked it wrong, not holding the flame on the herbs.

RoundAbout wrote:
I have tried using a VapCap M pushed slightly beyond its ordinary temperature range, and was able to feel threshold effects.

If I am not mistaken, VapCap is mostly a conduction vape with only a little bit of convection. Conduction is not imo very good heating method for salvia as it fails to really reach all of the inner surface of the bowl. It only heats the edges from one direction. Hot air in convection vapes flows around all the trichomes heating all of them everywhere from every direction.
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gibran2
#12 Posted : 1/15/2019 2:29:40 AM

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skr_nexus wrote:
...just that one big blob wil surealy evaporate much slower than the same ammount split into hundreds or thousands of trichomes. If you split one ball into two, you get more surface area. And more surface area => more heat transfer (and more uniform heating of the substance). More heat transfer and more surface area => faster evaporation.

A big blob of Salvinorin? Oh my! Keep in mind that 1 milligram of Salvinorin will lead to a fairly significant experience. A big blob is not necessary or recommended.

As I recall, once my GVG got up to proper temperature, the Salvinorin vaporized more or less instantaneously.


skr_nexus wrote:
Maybe, that's why I want more data and especailly from more people. But my intense experience on 0.06g suggest that I either have a strong batch, am very sensitive or my idea or strong effects is way off.

I don’t think the concentration of Salvinorin A in plain leaf varies much. It’s about 2.5 mg/g, plus or minus maybe 10% ? You may be very sensitive to the effects of Salvinorin A, and/or your idea of what strong effects is like may be off. Based on your descriptions of your experiences, they don’t sound like they were very strong. However, it’s good that you’re taking the responsible route of starting low and working your way up!
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skr_nexus
#13 Posted : 1/15/2019 2:33:06 AM
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gibran2 wrote:
A big blob of Salvinorin? Oh my! Keep in mind that 1 milligram of Salvinorin will lead to a fairly significant experience. A big blob is not necessary or recommended.

I meant its a big blod relative to the tiny trichomes on a plain leaf, summing to the same weight.
Of course compared to other stuff, it's tiny. And in effect it's a full dose.


This is supposed to be a salvia d. leaf portion under microscope. You can see everything here, veins, those big hairs (visible for naked eye) and about 10x more numerous tiny trichomes everywhere (too small for naked eye). The trichomes are so small they might just look like some kind of uniform smooth gloss to the naked eye unlike cannabis. There are more hairs on the vein, but not more trichomes, so the vein areas shouldn't be any more potent than leaves, actually it could be the opposite, because I think the veins are heavier, so they might be less potent per weight.

gibran2 wrote:
As I recall, once my GVG got up to proper temperature, the Salvinorin vaporized more or less instantaneously.

Nice to hear, so that could mean that even very slow vaporization of these tiny trichomes (below the boiling point) could evaporate them very fast.

gibran2 wrote:
I don’t think the concentration of Salvinorin A in plain leaf varies much. It’s about 2.5 mg/g, plus or minus maybe 10% ?

I've heard some people report significant differences of winter/summer(stronger) leaves, or leave grown in a humidity chamber/greenhouse(stronger). I think even young/old might make some difference. Maybe the concentration is not evently distributed? I took the grounds from the top which were mostly vein pieces. Maybe the veins have more trichomes around them that the rest of the leaves? To test this, one could separate a leaf, or look at it with a microscope.

gibran2 wrote:
You may be very sensitive to the effects of Salvinorin A...

I'm not sure if this is likely, it didn't appear i was anymore sensitive than anyone else when I smoked that 20x with few people.

gibran2 wrote:
...your idea of what strong effects is like may be off. Based on your descriptions of your experiences, they don’t sound like they were very strong.

Yes, I have never broke through on salvia or DMT, but I believe the really strong breakthrough effects should be that far away from the ones that already make timelines to fall into spirals. It wasn't as intense (and beutiful and emotional) as DMT breakthroughs, but it was close to that. and I think I really just barely entered that Salvia hyperspace, because it was very brief, I think I was there for about 1-2 minutes. Even though my sense of time felt out of whack at that moment, but I feel confident in this estimation in retrospect.

gibran2 wrote:
However, it’s good that you’re taking the responsible route of starting low and working your way up!

I did my research on how powerful Salvia is. I want to help acquire some data for this topic "for science" but I'm not willing to traumatize myself for it. Filling in the high dose data might require someone else or an accident. I don't really want to go much deeper in the Salvia hyperpace than that last experience. But I'm willing to repeat it sometime with few other vapes to see if they can do it too.
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