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I'm going to be injected with DMT in the name of science Options
 
MachienDome
#61 Posted : 12/7/2018 9:25:17 AM

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I have to say I’m both surprised and impressed that they themselves went through the experience! DMT seems to be one of those things that completely escapes any description and has to be experienced for itself. I would love to hear how they viewed that experience from a personal, not-completely-scientific, perspective. I hope that is included in their study. Smile I cant wait to read it.

The psilocybin study may prove to be a bit more challenging to keep the subjects steady enough in the MRI machine, LOL. I can just imagine someone completely losing it and laughing the whole time, but maybe they wont use that high of a dosage...

Thats great to hear the environment didn’t detract from the overall experience. I’m pleased to hear it was a wonderful experience! I hope you do a full write-up and put it in the next Nexian Magazine (if it ever comes out!). The sound syncing up with the experience is fascinating and I can see how that wouldn't detract much from it...being a weirdly mechanical, maybe even pseudo-psychedelic, sound. That would be fun to experience. What did they mean by the prior expectations have no effect on the experience? Did they get any more specific on that topic? I completely agree that it doesn't matter what you expect to happen, it shows you what it shows you and cannot be rationally predicted by any stretch of the imagination. Is this what they were trying to say or was there anything more? It’s also great to hear that there was no perceived distinction between their DMT and the DMT from the teks!

Very interested, glad you got to be a part of this experiment and came back to tell us about it! Happy future travels!
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DoingKermit
#62 Posted : 12/9/2018 5:51:31 AM

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Nice report dude! I felt like i was with you when I read your description of that first round. It's funny how the initial anxiety can be met with such calmness once things get going. My last few experiences were very much like this. Good to hear the scanner wasn't intrusive in the end too.

Do you think Chris T. will be rounding up the results for BC next year?
 
Bancopuma
#63 Posted : 12/9/2018 7:17:10 PM

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DoingKermit wrote:
Nice report dude! I felt like i was with you when I read your description of that first round. It's funny how the initial anxiety can be met with such calmness once things get going. My last few experiences were very much like this. Good to hear the scanner wasn't intrusive in the end too.

Do you think Chris T. be rounding up the results for BC next year?


Hey dude, has been a while, I hope all's cool your end! Smile

Thanks.. Yeah I can't really avoid some level of pre-flight jitters when it comes to DMT, but these were definitely enhanced by the clinical and confined and noisy setting of the MRI scanner initially, but the actual experiences were beautiful and positive, and my anxieties were pretty much needless, as they often are when it comes to this stuff.

Chris is rounding up the active scanning part of the study by the end of the month, so I imagine/hope that by Breaking Convention in August he'll have some preliminary results he's able to share.. Thumbs up
 
tregar
#64 Posted : 12/23/2018 6:29:58 PM

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Bancopuma, so glad you are part of the study! One tiny request...is there anyway they can do a study to simulate the way traditional snuff's are used in the Amazon? See below...this would mean something added to the dmt which would block serotonin like bufotenine (found in snuff's) which might possibly equate to the effects of around 90% dmt + 10% 5-meo-dmt together, or something similar from what I gather. Just thought since you would be given both seperately, why not a combination of mostly the dmt with tiny amount of 5-meo together (which would apply the addition of serotonin blocking/destruction of filters & ego awareness)

Plant "admixture" dmt has been shown in the recent Thomas S. Ray receptorome 2011 study shown below to not block serotonin like all the other natural oral entheogens, 5-meo-dmt & bufotenin. If reading the study correctly, it appears to be a "team player" in combination with something that blocks serotonin. It appears from the study that it must "give up" 5-ht1a agonism (80% of brain 5-ht survival/ego filters are then blocked) so that it can be super-potent (act in place of serotonin while it is being blocked by the other native team player plant) at the other 20% of brain 5-ht sites.

DMT is so super-potent at the "other 20% of brain 5-ht" that it far exceeds even psilocin in strength as you can see from the chart below, but again, in doing this, it has to give up agonism at the other 80% of brain 5-ht (5-h1a, which when agonized, blocks serotonin, breaking down the filters/gates/barriers/doors in the brain). The docking size of the molecule (like a key fits a hole) can only cover so much receptorome territory.

LSD scientist Dr. Nichols:
Quote:
LSD has very strong potency in blocking the action of serotonin. The morpholide lysergamide cousin had only about 1/10th the potency in blocking serotonin. Of the 5 diferent dialkylamides we studied LSD was the most potent and specific serotonin antagonist.

LSD scientist and founder of Heffter institute (where his papers reside) Dr. Nichols:
Quote:
5-ht1a makes up >80% of brain 5-ht...5-ht1a agonism blocks serotonin

The molecular docking size of the molecule can only "do so much" on it's own, where the teamwork factor seems to come in to play. The academic and doctors do not seem to be aware of this new receptorome study which points to the indigenous method of traditional use of dmt as an admixture to native plants which provide the additional serotonin blocking teamwork action.

From 2011 Thomas S. Ray binding study
Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min
Quote:
LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00
These 5ht1a serotonin filters/gates/barriers (that allow us to survive in the real world & possibly help to make up the ego) make up >80% of brain 5-ht according to LSD scientist Dr. Nichols. Caapi contains a serotonin blocker called THH, so Ayahuasca can also be included in the list of entheogens that target 5-ht1a (block serotonin) apparently...along with lsd, mescaline, mushrooms & snuff's which are mostly bufotenine + dmt. Aldous Huxley postulates that lifting of the brain filters allow "Mind at Large" to be let loose.

James Oroc's new book "The New Psychedelic Revolution, the Genesis of the Visionary Age", describes the differences between DMT and 5-meo-dmt (page 79, a New Earth?):
Quote:
DMT opens up the mind's eye to the visionary experience--anything that can be seen or imagined can vividly exist in the DMT realm. In my lectures I correlate DMT to the sixth chakra in the kundalini system. At this level, while you can experience the existence of God in all its infinite myriad forms, there is still a separation between the subject and object, between you and the face of the divine. DMT is thus the endogenous source of the vast and rich realm of our archetypical mythology.

On the other hand, the other known endogenous entheogen, 5-meo-dmt, Nick Sand described to me as "The Void", noting that the phenomenological experience of this closely related compound is very different from that of DMT. This singularly powerful compound I correlate to the seventh chakra of the kundalini system--the crown chakra--the source of that indescribable event where all boundaries dissolve, and you and God become One.

The 7th shakra reveals an interconnected dimension beyond vision, thoughts, time, space--the transpersonal experience defined by Abrahaam Maslow and Stanislav Grof--which 5-meo-dmt accesses through an ego death so dramatic and instantaneous that it is impossible to find the vocabulary with which to relate the experience with the sliver of consciousness that returns, the classical mystic's dilemma.
To read the effects of combining 90% dmt with 10% 5-meo-dmt, see his vision here:
(Traditional Amazonian snuffs contain mostly bufotenine which is also a serotonin blocker)

Oroc's experiment of combining 5-meo-dmt with DMT sounds imho very much like a short beautiful transcendental Ayahuasca experience, from his book "Tryptamine Palace":

DMT + tiny amounts of 5-meo-dmt (perhaps theoretically similar to the serotonin blocking abililty of Native Amazonian snuff's composed of dmt and bufotenine):
Quote:
As an experiment (and in a foreign land) I smoked the last of the Bufo alvarius venom (the story of whose collection is described within the pages of Tryptamine Palace) with some ‘regular’ DMT (extracted from Jurema Preta.). In the vast majority of my early nigerine (DMT) experiences, I encountered visual fields of ‘dots’ that would come together to form images, much like the pointillism style of painting developed by Georges Seurat or the Australian Aboriginal song-line paintings.

* With the addition of the 5-MeO-DMT containing toad-venom to the DMT however, the visual characteristic was completely different and totally unique to my experiences so far. On this occasion there was a complete lack of ‘dots’ or ‘points’ of any kind, the fine lines of the constantly changing imagery were like those painted with a single-hair brush on Tibetan thangkas and due to the overwhelming artistry of what I was seeing, I could only think of the vaulted ceiling of the Sistine Chapel in comparison.

Sistene Chapel: This was without a doubt the most ‘visionary’ experience I have ever been fortunate enough to encounter and I lay there with my eyes shut watching the most fantastic parade of the Collective Unconsciousness imaginable, wishing that it would never end, and as I sit here now I can not even describe one tiny corner of it, since every image in the multitude of imagery was in such constant motion that they defied all but a glimpse. And then moments later, like a tent collapsing when its ropes are cut, the vision is gone. Leaving only a struggle of words to explain it, since nothing before or after has come close to this experiences visual majesty.

This experience leads to the interesting question of selectively combining DMT and 5-MeO-DMT for a more visionary and somewhat less overwhelmingly transcendental experience. (Or for the other way around). This combining of the two endogenous entheogens is being tested in changa blends (reportedly at a 90% DMT to 10% 5-MeO-DMT ratio), while many Pharmahuasca urban-shamans are also adding 5-MeO-DMT to their ayahuasca-analogues to transform and deepen that experience. It seems likely to me that the combining of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT in various ratios and manners will only become more popular as the exponentially increasing number of psychonauts search for new psychological terrain to explore.

Study shows bufotenine (5-ho-DMT) found in snuffs agonize 5-ht1a (which in turn blocks serotonin):

Pharmacology of 5-hydroxytryptamine-1A receptors which inhibit cAMP production in hippocampal and cortical neurons in primary culture. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2828913
Quote:
5-HT1A agonist: All the tryptamine derivatives substituted in position 5 of the indol were potent agonists [5-HT, 5-CT, 5-MeO-N,N-DMT, 5-methoxytryptamine, and bufotenine (5-ho-DMT)],

whereas tryptamine, N-methyltryptamine, and N,N-dimethyltryptamine were poor agonists.

Quote:
Amazoninan snuff: Yopo beans have been found to contain up to 7.4% bufotenin and 0.04% 5-MeO-DMT and 0.16% DMT. At up to 7.4 % (74 mg per gram) bufotenin, an effective 40 mg dose of insufflated bufotenin requires little more than 0.5 grams of beans.

Theoretically & subjectively, Anti-serotonin properties at 80% of brain 5-ht in combination with the psychedelic molecule acting in place of serotonin at the other 20% of brain 5-ht sites result in breaking down the gates/filters/barriers so that One's consciousness can possibly return back to the transpersonal realm (a different tuning frequency for consciousness).

Dr. Nichols
Quote:
5-ht1a makes up >80% of brain 5-ht...5-ht1a agonism blocks serotonin

Thomas S. Ray, Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome (2010):
https://journals.plos.or...71/journal.pone.0009019
hxxp://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0009019
Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min
Quote:
LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00 (make up >80% of brain 5-ht)
LSD: 5ht1b = 4.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.19, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.41
LSD: 5ht1d = 3.70, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 3.40, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.48
LSD: 5ht1e = 2.62, DMT: = 3.28, psilocin = 3.03, mescaline = 3.16, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.72
LSD: 5ht2a = 3.54, DMT: = 2.58, psilocin = 2.14, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.98
LSD: 5ht2b = 3.11, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 4.00, mescaline = 3.97, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.69
LSD: 5ht2c = 3.11, DMT: = 3.42, psilocin = 2.52, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.55
LSD: 5ht5a = 3.64, DMT: = 3.16, psilocin = 2.83, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.84
LSD: -5ht6 = 3.75, DMT: = 3.35, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.73
LSD: -5ht7 = 3.77, DMT: = 4.00, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.69
LSD: ---D1 = 2.34, DMT: = 3.51, psilocin = 3.37, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.38
LSD: -A-2A = 2.93, DMT: = 2.75, psilocin = 1.36, mescaline = 2.92, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00 (aesthetic/beauty adrenal a2a)
LSD: -A-2B = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.57, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.86 (aesthetic/beauty adrenal a2b)
LSD: -A-2C = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.03, mescaline = 4.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.57 (aesthetic/beauty adrenal a2c)
 
dragonrider
#65 Posted : 12/23/2018 7:19:42 PM

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Whether yopo or vilca contains 5-MeO-DMT is still an issue of discussion. It more and more looks like there are only extremely small amounts of it, present within these seeds.

My personal experience with yopo is, that it is very visual, but not realy visionary. More consistant with bufotenin.

I don't know if there realy is an old, sort of shamanic tradition, of 5-MeO-DMT use.
 
Bancopuma
#66 Posted : 12/24/2018 5:25:50 PM

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I don't think there will be any studies looking at combining different psychedelics for quite a while, if ever...proposing a study on 5-MeO-DMT alone is already pushing the boat out. I have sampled N,N-DMT and 5-MeO-DMT together and found it highly unpleasant. Ralph Metzner used to use them together, but he felt the N,N-DMT was not really contributing anything to the mix, so he left it out and stuck with 5-MeO-DMT alone. I concede that effects are likely going to be very dependent on dosage and rations, it sounds like to 90% N,N-DMT/10% 5-MeO-DMT might be something worthy of exploring.
 
rOm
#67 Posted : 12/25/2018 10:10:34 AM

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Bancopuma wrote:
I concede that effects are likely going to be very dependent on dosage and rations, it sounds like to 90% N,N-DMT/10% 5-MeO-DMT might be something worthy of exploring.


I did experience a bit the mix.

What I did at the time ( in 2012 ), was prepair eLeaf with 20mg n,n DMT for 5 mg 5 MeO DMT onto 25mg Leaf ( mullein mostly).
I found the effect to be different than n,n DMT eLeaf, it was less figurative and more abstract, but somehow in between.

I mean not really landsape and no shaped entities or scenario. More like tunnelling, feeling like going in cosmic pipes or canals if that make sense.
it had a kind of moving effect I could achive when working a lot with sublingual salvia divinroum tinctures, if I'd relate it to previous psychedelics experiences.

It wasn't unpleasant as far as I can tell.

Hope that helps.

I have experience 5 MeO DMT alone ( synthetic ) and later Bufo alvarius vaping. And of course, many n,n DMT session, vaped, smoked, oral as pharmahuasca, ayahuasca ...

I could repeat it. If you need a guinea pig.
Smell like tea n,n spirit !

Toke the toke, and walk the walk !
 
tregar
#68 Posted : 12/25/2018 1:40:28 PM

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Ahhh, I see, very interesting, thanks for comments Bancopuma & rOm.

rOm said about eLeaf with 20mg n,n DMT for 5 mg 5 MeO DMT onto 25mg Leaf ( mullein mostly):
Quote:
I found the effect to be different than n,n DMT eLeaf, it was less figurative and more abstract, but somehow in between.

I mean not really landsape and no shaped entities or scenario. More like tunnelling, feeling like going in cosmic pipes or canals if that make sense. It had a kind of moving effect I could achive when working a lot with sublingual salvia divinroum tinctures, if I'd relate it to previous psychedelics experiences.

It wasn't unpleasant as far as I can tell.
very interesting report rOm, thanks!

According to the chart above, 5-meo-dmt is the planet's strongest serotonin blocker (4.00max, in other words, so strong it is off the charts). So I can see why Oroc just used a tiny bit with the dmt. His accounts (5-meo alone) of being transported to a divine transpersonal realm while at the same time his ego is being shattered into a million pieces is an interesting read from the book. I like his analogy here:

Page 115 from James Oroc's new book "The New Psychedelic Revolution, the Genesis of the Visionary Age" (5-meo-dmt):
Quote:
In this state of supreme resonance they actually become One, a seamless unified Whole. Such a physical event is identical to the psychological union that occurs when the lens of our ego is destroyed by 5-meo-dmt and you experience a transpersonal integration with the entirety of the universe--and remember it is not that you simply experience the entirety of the rest of the universe, you are the entirety of the universe.

You have ceased to exist separately, you only exist as part of the whole--and in fact, you no longer exist individually at all.

One of my favorite metaphors of the 5-meo experience is that you are a drop, and then you return to the ocean. Just as a drop of water can no longer distinguish itself from the rest of the sea, so too my consciousness can no longer distinguish itself from the whole of the cosmic ocean.

Anyhow, good luck on the upcoming study in less than a month, and hope to hear back the details of how it went! According to the chart above, plain smoked or injected dmt may theoretically subjectively retain ego-awareness by not blocking serotonin (unlike all the natural oral entheogens like LSD, mescaline, Ayahuasca (caapi with thh), snuffs, mushrooms) perhaps this also helps to explain the lucidity some of the people mention specifically in their smoked dmt accounts at serendipity. 340 dmt trip reports: http://www.serendipity.l...340_dmt_trip_reports.htm
 
dragonrider
#69 Posted : 12/25/2018 7:44:40 PM

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Doesn't phalaris contain a mixture of both? I believe jamie said he liked the experience of phalaris-spice, and that he could clearly feel the presence of 5-MeO-DMT.
 
tregar
#70 Posted : 12/26/2018 12:45:37 PM

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Interesting observation dragonrider! Here is a compilation on this from Bancopuma & others: https://forums.5meodmt.o...index.php?topic=50447.0
hxxps://forums.5meodmt.org/index.php?topic=50447.0

Find it very interesting that the 2011 receptorome study shows dmt to be the only natural entheogen that does not block serotonin (see post #63 above) All the other natural entheogens: LSD, mescaline, Ayahuasca, psilocin, snuff's, 5-meo-dmt: all block serotonin (agonize 5-h1a which is 80% of brain 5-ht) while at the same time act in the place of serotonin, which is the other 20% of brain 5-ht...it seems to back up the Shamanic traditional use of dmt as an admixture with other plants, such as with Ayahuasca/caapi which contains thh as it's second largest alkaloid (potent serotonin blocker, see wikipedia on thh) or with snuff's which contain bufotenin (potent serotonin blocker). Snuff's give effects which lasts 3 hours, or with plants which contain trace or tiny amounts of 5-meo-dmt (extremely potent serotonin blocker).

Why is it that all the natural oral entheogens (and 5-meo-dmt) insist on targetting over 80% of brain 5-ht (the serotonin filters/gates/barriers/doors are broken down when 5-th1a is agonized) that make up the filters that allow us to survive in everyday life and possibly theoretically & subjectively help to form the ego? Why is the dissolving of ego-awareness a main feature of these entheogens? James Oroc speculates that the dissolving of ego allows for the tuning of one's consciouness with the divine transpersonal realm, like a drop of water that is no longer seperate but returns to the whole of the cosmic ocean of consciousness.

Anyhow, I hope that one day scientist will perform a study using dmt in combination with some sort of serotonin blocker, similar to the makeup of it's indigenous use, we are sure to learn much from the descriptions of the experiences. It's nice to see some open-mindness to the concept anyway here at the forum, shows just how open-minded the whole entheogenic community is. Seems important not to forget traditional use, we can learn much from the Natives--as they said the plants taught them how to use them.

But this is a topic for another time, just thought would share with the scientist one day for a possible combination study like 90% dmt + 10% 5-meo like James Oroc's beautiful account above in post #62.
 
tregar
#71 Posted : 1/5/2019 8:25:58 PM

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Dragonrider said:
Quote:
I don't know if there realy is an old, sort of shamanic tradition, of 5-MeO-DMT use.
After doing some research, found this:

According to "Keeper of the Trout”:
"5-meo-dmt is frequently the major active component in many South American snuffs derived from Virola and in a minority of the snuffs derived from Anadenanthera": Anadenanthera is mainly bufotenin (another potent 5-ht1a agonist/serotonin blocker) and tiny amounts of dmt and 5-meo-dmt.
 
Luz
#72 Posted : 1/19/2019 8:16:43 AM

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I hope not to belabor the obvious, but did you read the Strassman book: DMT the Spirit Molecule?
Luz attached the following image(s):
Strassman Temp.png (217kb) downloaded 36 time(s).
 
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