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Flying Ointment: Safety, Recommended Use, and Bioassay? Options
 
hexixt
#1 Posted : 11/29/2018 8:14:55 PM

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I have been investigating Flying Ointment for both its psychoactive and potential analgesic properties, and I remain unsure of a number of things. Any knowledge, especially first hand experience with the specified entheogens, would be immensely helpful to my overall understanding.

I have come across a premade Flying Ointment that reportedly contains the following ingredients (listed in the provided order): Belladonna, Mandrake, Fly Agaric Mushroom, Dittany of Crete, Wormwood, Mugwort, Sage, and Rose, combined in Coconut Oil, Shea Butter, and Soy Wax.

1) I have done some research on the individual entheogens, and learned of the toxicity of Belladonna, Mandrake, and Fly Agaric Mushrooms if absorbed topically in too large of an amount. To get a better understanding of what the concentrations of the dangerous compounds (Atropine, Hyoscine, Hyoscyamine, Muscimol, Ibotenic Acid) are in the Ointment, I read here on dmt-nexus that one should perform a bioassay. However, I have been unable to find instructions on the wiki nor the forums on how to perform a bioassay, so I would like to know how one should do it.

2) From what I understand, the toxic compounds in Belladonna and Mandrake (Atropine, Hyoscine, Hyoscyamine) do not interact with the receptors that Lamotrigine and Sertraline bind to. However, the toxic compounds of Fly Agaric Mushrooms (Muscimol, Ibotenic Acid) are both GABA_A agonists, and Lamotrigine seems to have some sort of interaction with the GABA_A receptor. I do not understand chemistry, let alone biochemistry, well enough to determine if there is significant risk for interaction from Muscimol and Ibotenic Acid with Lamotrigine and Sertraline, or with Atropine, Hyoscine, and Hyoscyamine. Any insight that anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

3) Any first hand experience of the effects produced and recommended dosage when using Flying Ointment containing some or all of these entheogens would be amazing. I have looked up each entheogens typical effects, but I reason that in combination they are likely to produce a significantly different experience and have different dosage requirements.

Thank you to everyone who is able to contribute whatever answers they can Laughing
 
 
downwardsfromzero
#2 Posted : 11/29/2018 11:47:28 PM

Eggnogstic - warning! Self-irony levels: high!

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The standard advice to those taking pharmaceutical medications is to avoid mixing them with other, unprescribed medicaments. So, you have bipolar depression and long-term pain issues?

While this flying ointment you're looking at may well contain the ingredients you list, it's very hard to be certain unless you've actually witnessed its preparation.

Although belladonna alkaloids may not interact with your medication, they are dangerous enough in their own right to warrant a healthy level of respect. And is muscimol even absorbed transdermally? Calling these deliriants entheogens, you might as well call beer an entheogen Very happy.

It would appear that lamotrigine would attenuate the GABA-ergic effects of muscimol if anything - which would again suggest you would be better off looking at ways towards safely eliminating the intake of pharmaceutical medications (if that even comes into the question) before embarking on the practical side of this investigation. This you must do with the aid of a competent and sympathetic physician.

Boring, standard advice, I know, but:

Ask yourself - is it really worth the risk?
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
 
Cactus Man
#3 Posted : 11/30/2018 12:35:48 AM

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Any and all preparations of "Flying Ointment" are extremely dangerous.

I highly recommend never using such things.
"If you do not posses the ashes you will not be able to obtain our salt and without our salt you will not be able to impart to our substance a bodily form for the coagulation of all things is produced by salt alone." ~ Basil Valentine
 
Lowtones
#4 Posted : 11/30/2018 3:09:53 AM

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I've no experience with belladonna, but a reasonable amount with mandrake. You do have to be careful still, but mandrake is more forgiving than other plants in that family. I did make a test weak ointment with only mandrake, sage, and yarrow. Effects were very mild, but as I said I made it weak on purpose.

I wouldn't want to be on any sort of medication at all and use something like that. That being said, transdermal use is generally regarded as much safer. Please don't take my word for it, though, I'm not an expert by any means.
 
0_o
#5 Posted : 11/30/2018 4:53:05 AM

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It is rather interesting.

I would be more inclined to experiment with very simple preparations at rather low doses before considering anything complex or more substantial.

There is a serious risk with these materials where the user will fail to recognize their environment and not be able to distinguish fantasy from reality. This is more of a given than a possibility.

This complicates things. People sometimes regard as genuine their sensory experience and the resulting mentation during episodes of intoxication. This often reduces functionality and survivability. It can result in impaired thinking and mental illness. Examples of this aren't rare in psychedelic culture.

If you intend to experiment with these things it would be wise to have a plan in place to support and maintain mental health and address issues that are likely to arise. Many people are unprepared and do not even realize their mental health has been damaged and there is a portion of the culture that reinforces mental illness with rationalization and attempts to justify it with emotion. Be careful. Just becomes something feels right or true does mean it is, and this is a bridge you will cross if you go down this path, have a plan before you get there.
 
hexixt
#6 Posted : 11/30/2018 7:03:22 AM

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Thank you to everyone who has responded so far, and thank you for the very strong warnings and advice to stay away from such substances, especially while taking medication. Safety is of the utmost priority, and I am glad to be confronted by the community in this manner; it's important. To be clear, I am aware of the danger, especially in combination with medication, and it is why I am doing research and reaching out to others who are wiser and more experienced than I am. I hope my answers to the each of you here will illuminate the reason for my interest in Flying Ointment.


@downwardsfromzero

My apologies, I didn't realize that there was a functional difference between entheogens and deliriants. My understanding was that entheogens are psychoactive plants and fungi regardless of effect. I will refrain from using "entheogen" so broadly in the future.

Yes, I have bipolar II depression, anxiety, and PTSD, all of which are greatly exacerbated and/or outright caused by my chronic pain. Effectively controlling my pain is the key to reclaiming an adequate quality of life that will allow me to enjoy being alive. So far, the medical establishment has neglected me, and despite being a fervent self advocate, I do not receive the help I need, and I'm too poor to do anything about it. The most toxic substances present in the Flying Ointment also happen to have potent analgesic properties, even as a topical preparation, hence my curiosity.

I cannot claim to know that Muscimol is able to be transdermally absorbed or not, but there is evidence that it has analgesic effects, and Amanita Muscaria is used by the Evens of Siberia as a topical analgesic, so my guess is that it may actually be possible to absorb Muscimol transdermally.

Should the day ever come where I decide that Flying Ointment is warranted, I would absolutely be sure to have titrated off of my prescriptions, and start with an incredibly small dose on a single point of my arm to watch for an allergic reaction. If no negative reactions of any kind are observed, I would very, very slowly increase the dose (applied only once per week) to find the threshold for the effective dose with that particular preparation. Should this ever come to pass, do you believe this would be an appropriate approach?


@Cactus Man

You are 100% correct: all Flying Ointment preparations are dangerous and are to be approached with extreme caution, if approached at all.


@Lowtones

I too have read that transdermal absorption with these plants/fungi is generally safer, but safer in this context is a rather relative term. Still dangerous, especially with medication involved.


@0_o

Deliriants scare the bejesus out of me for all the reasons you've described. I want to clarify, that while (hopefully) mild psychoactive effects from Flying Ointment would be a plus, tripping in my case is not desired (especially the kind of delirious state that is possible with too large of a dose); my overwhelming interest is in the plant/fungi ingredients analgesic properties. As such, very low dose use is the only method of use I am looking into. I do have a psychiatrist/therapist that I feel confident would support me in an emergency, as well as friends who will look out for me should I ever go down this path.
 
wherever
#7 Posted : 11/30/2018 9:22:54 PM

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No info to further the discussion unfortunately, but this seems like an interesting way to ride out a terminal condition
 
downwardsfromzero
#8 Posted : 11/30/2018 9:44:55 PM

Eggnogstic - warning! Self-irony levels: high!

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Hexixt - thanks for the clarification. Would you be happy to share just a little more about your chronic pain condition?

Quote:
I would very, very slowly increase the dose (applied only once per week) to find the threshold for the effective dose with that particular preparation. Should this ever come to pass, do you believe this would be an appropriate approach?

You may perhaps be aware that belladonna alkaloids can be surprisingly persistent in the human body; regular dosing can cause them to build up to a dangerous level - physically - while the mind may have become slowly accustomed to them. Your once a week small dose sounds pretty sensible in this respect, but you would still need to exercise the utmost caution when increasing either the dose or the frequency of dosing.

Of the top of my head, chronic belladonna intake can lead to damage to both the brain and the heart. I'm inclined to think your search for a suitable herbal analgesic may well be better directed towards other, less toxic plants.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
 
Lowtones
#9 Posted : 12/1/2018 8:22:23 AM

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Let me just say this. I have never touched belladonna or datura. But I have worked with mandrake as well as thujone containing plants such as sage and yarrow with some study. I have made teas, poultices, crude ointments, and fermented beverages with all three.

Sage and yarrow seem quite safe in low-moderate quantities as long as they are not used every day. Even a couple of days a week or month of mixed "general use" and I would certainly not report anything negative.

Even Mandrake, one of the more human-friendly plants of the nightshade family, can become unpleasant if you are attempting to go to a hallucinatory place with it. When you get to a subtle place where you can feel its effects, you are basically getting the most you can out of it in my experience. On one overuse (involved ingestion) I was somewhat worried about my heart and general state of being. That is my only unpleasant experience with mandrake. It has the potential to be dangerous, but I do feel attuned to it in small doses.

Just to be sure, this experience involved no medication and a minor amount of alcohol in home fermented products.
 
PlantTraveller
#10 Posted : 12/1/2018 12:53:19 PM

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In addition to the very wise things others have said I would suggest that if you really feel drawn to any of the materials in this balm, you would be better off growing or foraging your own and then processing it yourself. Only then can you know what you are taking, after all; only then could you bioassay to see how you are affected by each individual ingredient. For example, Amanita Muscaria needs to be heat processed before it is safe to consume. And as far as I know, without sophisticated laboratory equipment it is not possible to determine the potency of each individual harvest or extract. I don't doubt that there are people out there making truly wonderful flying ointments and maybe yours is one of these, but still, I think it is best practice to always and only ever try a new substance completely on its own, at a low dose (ideally when well-rested and nourished, too) but what I'm getting at is that this particular combination of ingredients might not be what serves your need.

But yeah. there are many interesting plants out there which might be more suited to you. Skullcap is supposed to be wonderful for pain, for example, but again not to be combined with other meds etc etc etc Smile
 
trncefigurate_aomn
#11 Posted : 12/1/2018 11:15:34 PM

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Perhaps it is possible that you could carefully develop an alternate flying ointment combination, or, even shift to a flying tea given that it might be hard to know which alternate ingredients would absorb dermally and become active.

What could become replacements for the toxic plants? It becomes a very inviting blank slate. (Indeed it is possible that the ingredients were intentionally falsified/dissolved through a centuries-long rumor mill, to keep an actual potent mix as a secret?)

Most wonderfully, in this era you can read about the effects of many different possible plant and mushroom ingredients, as well as, find out about interactions that would need to be avoided.

Surely there are many potential flying mixes that would really more closely coincide with the flight concept, and, be fundamentally safe!
 
PsyDuckmonkey
#12 Posted : 12/3/2018 5:57:22 PM

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Our ancestors didn't always know better. There's such a thing as "obsolete" even in drug use.

Like, as an example, drinking someone's piss to get an amanita high is well and clearly obsolete. The celts did it because they knew no other way to decarb ibotenic acid, and the lives and health of a few young druid apprentices weren't seen as being of particularly high value, so it was a good tradeoff for them. Other cultures had decarbing down even in that very same period. We certainly have a good grasp on it, so under no circumstances should you be required to drink piss (or partake of amanitas that weren't properly decarbed).

The way I see it, the "flying ointment" simply means "mixing together every single deliriant plant and fungus growing near your home". Where it mentions "meal of fine wheat", I'm quite positive that ergot was also involved. Now this might work, and probably did work, under the supervision of an older witch who knew her shit and could teach her apprentice about the proper dosage, about how the potency of plants vary by seasons, weather changes, by the part of the plant used... But even if it works, it is abolutely, definintely obsolete. It's something we're glad we're beyond.

Even if one wants to work with deliriants, we have pretty cool technologies for ensuring proper dosages and safe delivery. Read up on extraction of atropine, scopolamine, on the decarbing of ibotenic acid...
Do you believe in the THIRD SUMMER OF LOVE?
 
downwardsfromzero
#13 Posted : 12/3/2018 6:18:00 PM

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Analgesia and deliriants? What about ketamine? It's also a highly effective antidepressant...

Furthermore, there are also several species of sage (Salvia) that have interesting analgesic properties.
Ora, lege, lege, lege, relege et labora

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
 
hexixt
#14 Posted : 12/3/2018 7:15:00 PM

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@downwardsfromzero

I have been prescribed Ketamine in the past, and it worked great. However, it had two major flaws: the possibility of developing Ketamine Bladder Syndrome, and rapid tolerance building.


@PsyDuckmonkey

You bring up a good point. With medicine as the intent, Flying Ointment is "obsolete" as a delivery method for the active compounds involved, as the crude ointment dosage is uncertain. This notion is doing a lot to change my opinion of Flying Ointment as a medical tool. I now think it has more of a place in ritual and historical use rather than modern medicinal application.


@trncefigurate_aomn

Yes, I learned the hard way that Skullcap should not be combined with other meds. I was prescribed it by a Western Herbalist a few years ago who knew about my other prescriptions, and when I took it I ended up having urinary tract pain. I stopped taking it immediately.


@Lowtones

Thanks for the feedback about Mandrake. The general consensus I am seeing is that if it is to be taken, Flying OIntment should be taken in a very low dose, and without being on any other medication, bar none.
 
Cactus Man
#15 Posted : 12/6/2018 3:45:47 AM

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hexixt wrote:
@downwardsfromzero

I have been prescribed Ketamine in the past, and it worked great. However, it had two major flaws: the possibility of developing Ketamine Bladder Syndrome, and rapid tolerance building.


Do you mean ketamine infusions, or literally ketamine pills?
"If you do not posses the ashes you will not be able to obtain our salt and without our salt you will not be able to impart to our substance a bodily form for the coagulation of all things is produced by salt alone." ~ Basil Valentine
 
hexixt
#16 Posted : 12/6/2018 6:40:26 AM

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@Cactus Man

My prescription was altered to a different type of administration a few times, so I've had intramuscular injections, troches, and nasal spray
 
 
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