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Enhanced sublingual salvia powder Options
 
Zebbie
#21 Posted : 8/2/2018 4:29:39 AM

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physics envy wrote:
I made up a batch with corn start last night, and am planning to try it tonight. I used 5g leaf and 1g starch, and will probably try 0.6g of the resulting powder.

How did you prepare your leaf before extraction? Did you crush it, or did you grind it as well?


The significant difference between my powders (post #4 and post #14) was grinding in a coffee grinder before extracting. The grinding made the cell interior more accessible to the solvent. So the solvent was better able to extract phospholipids that make up cell membranes. Phospholipids are good suspending and dispersing agents, so they would help transport salvinorin across the mucous membrane.

 

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physics envy
#22 Posted : 8/2/2018 5:15:20 AM

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Zebbie wrote:
That was certainly the strongest, and probably the least enjoyable trip I have been on.

8' trip begins, and very quickly becomes intense. I felt like I was trapped in a tornado, and couldn't move up into the sky, or back down to earth. Fortunately, my full bladder brought me back down to earth.


That sounds great! Sounds more like a smoked session. They always have much more movement in my experience, like being tossed into a white-water rapid with no clear up or down.


Zebbie wrote:
How did you prepare your leaf before extraction? Did you crush it, or did you grind it as well?


I ran it through a coffee grinder. I might not have used quite enough acetone for my pulls however...I didn't use much more than it took to cover the leaf. After the final drying in the oven, my results looked a bit like salt and pepper (it didn't look completely bound together to me). But after some extra mixing with a spoon, it now looks like a nice green powder.

Looking forward to giving it a try in the next hour or so. Hoping for a session like yours!
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
Zebbie
#23 Posted : 8/2/2018 5:34:02 AM

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Pics of the volume of 5g leaf after grinding , and the powder covered with acetone. Acetone has a lower viscosity than IPA, so the powder settles faster in acetone. The second picture was after stirring and settling for 2 minutes.
Zebbie attached the following image(s):
32. 5g ground leaf in tumbler.jpg (263kb) downloaded 305 time(s).
33. Mixed with acetone.jpg (236kb) downloaded 303 time(s).
 
Zebbie
#24 Posted : 8/2/2018 5:43:03 AM

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physics envy wrote:
my results looked a bit like salt and pepper

The salt and pepper effect is due to precipitation and segregation of the chlorophyll. As the solvent evaporates, it absorbs water. The water reduces the solubility of the chlorophyll, and it comes out of solution and forms clumps. It is the green clumps against the white starch that produces the speckled effect. Smile

 
physics envy
#25 Posted : 8/2/2018 7:59:46 PM

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Thank you for the additional pics, Zebbie. I didn't use as much extra acetone as you, and will use a bit more next time just in case. But I did squeeze all the juice out of the leaf that I could with a syringe piston.

I used the same amount as in your trials...5g leaf and 1g starch.

It definitely worked Thumbs up

I used 0.6g of the powder, and my results were pretty much equal to your 0.8g results.

In terms of comparison to plain leaf quid, it was very similar to when I use 2-2.5 times my normal quid amounts (I haven't used more than that when quidding...so I run out of comparison at that amount.)

My normal quid is 800mg, and I've used 1.5-2.0g a few times. Every time I use that much, my body is pretty much put to sleep, and the trip lasts for hours. The main part of the trip is an hour or so, but the comedown lasts another hour or two and I don't sleep very well after. I wake up multiple times throughout the night, and it is hard to tell if I've been asleep and dreaming or just lying there half asleep and tripping.

My experience last night was the same.

(Side note - others have suggested that spitting out a quid rather than swallowing would reduce the overall length of the trip. I haven't tested this myself.)

I spent the first few minutes getting my area set up, headphones going, etc.

After 4' I realized the powder had completely liquefied. At that point, I started swishing it around.

At 6' I started to feel the initial effects.

At 10' I was 'there' or 'out' or whatever term you like to use for having crossed 'the line', and it was on!

The images and inner conversation at that dose are amazing and I love going that far - on occasion.

At this point, I'd say this method is quite successful!

So I'm personally interested in two main things next:

1) How little starch can be used for a given amount of extract?

Since the amount of extract from 5g leaf was approx. 100mg, could that be evaporated onto say 100mg of starch? If so, then we'd only need about 40mg of end product to match our 800mg leaf quids. This is similar to the amount of product we were using when testing the complexed salvia extract.

2) Is this method more efficient than leaf?

If a normal leaf quid requires 800mg leaf, that equates to about 160mg of the powder we just tested (assuming we pulled all the salvinorin out). That's already a quite tiny amount. But maybe this method is twice as efficient and I'd only need half of that amount to get 'there'?

I've given away plenty of leaf for others to try in the past, but I can't imagine giving away anything other than a powder going forward.


I have only smoked once in the last few years (to test a homemade batch of extract before gifting it away). At some point soon I will try again to compare it to this heavier oral dose. From memory, my smoked sessions were 'deeper' than any oral method, but they may not be that much different after several years of quidding.




Salvia quid enthusiast
 
Zebbie
#26 Posted : 8/3/2018 7:40:12 AM

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Nice comprehensive report, physics envy. I know how much agonizing is required to produce these reports, so I really appreciate the effort!

Now it is my turn to sweat blood trying to draft a suitable reply to your questions. The last few weeks have been a very steep learning curve for me. Trying to understand how sub-lingual salvia absorption works has taken me to some strange places, like the manufacture of concrete and ice cream. I am reminded of Alice in Wonderland's Walrus:

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes, and ships, and sealing-wax,
Of cabbages and kings,
And why the sea is boiling hot,
And whether pigs have wings."

 
physics envy
#27 Posted : 8/3/2018 8:41:56 AM

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Zebbie wrote:
Now it is my turn to sweat blood trying to draft a suitable reply to your questions.


Well...I guess as a control I should do the same extraction without cornstarch and see if that would be active or not, yes?

My extracts in the complexation thread were heavily washed with naphtha, removing most of the things you theorized would help with absorption. So maybe your extraction method would generate a less sticky substance that could dissolve easily and not even need a carrier for oral usage?

And if it's not active, then I could infuse the extract onto increasing amounts of cornstarch with acetone, yes?
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
Zebbie
#28 Posted : 8/3/2018 10:09:00 AM

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Look what I found!

Salvia soft extract

Just shows that there is nothing new under the sun. I quote from the link:

Quote:
• Soft extracts. It is a semisolid material obtained by extracting Salvia divinorum leaf with a solvent and then evaporating the solvent completely. The resulting preparation is a waxy or tarry product that is not sufficiently hard to be able to be ground up into a powder. The soft extract (which may actually be fairly hard like hard wax), is not deposited on leaves. This material is quite suitable for sublingual use as a substitute for quid. The effects are similar to quid but probably will be stronger, may come on a little slower, and may last somewhat longer. The advantage over quid chewing is user comfort, as a far smaller amount of material must be put into ones mouth. Since the material is very concentrated (1/4 tsp. will produce strong effects in many people) a large enough dose can be taken to guarantee strong effects without the gagging that may accompany use of large quids. For example: if 1/4 tsp. is ineffective, one could take 1/2 tsp. without gagging. Basic soft extracts but can easily be prepared in a kitchen. A method of preparation is described below.

********************


The reason for depositing this stuff on corn starch is to

1. improve the handling - much easier to weigh out powder than to weigh out toffee
2. improve dispersion in the mouth. The soft extract might get stuck between your teeth, while the powder disintegrates rapidly.

 
Zebbie
#29 Posted : 8/3/2018 10:33:55 AM

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physics envy wrote:

1) How little starch can be used for a given amount of extract?


Personally I think this is a moot point. Starch contributes little to the flavour or texture of the powder. Starch helps to 'cut' the extract, making dosing easier. It is easier to weigh out 400 mg than 40 mg of powder.

Starch is required to prevent clumping of the extract, and to make it disperse in saliva. Anything that increases the stickyness of the extract will increase the amount of starch required.

Factors that increase the stickyness of the extract:

1. Finer grind liberates more sticky stuff from inside the cells
2. Higher solvent temperature.
3. Longer soak time between solvent pulls

The sticky impurities interfere with the crystallization of salvinorin A. This makes salvinorin A precipitate as an amorphous mass, instead of crystals. Absorption becomes easier. Unfortunately the impurities also contribute to the unpleasant taste of the extract. So maybe the question should be:

What is the minimum amount of impurity needed to maximize absorption of salvinorin?

From the two experiments I did with crushed leaf v/s ground leaf, I suspect there is no cut and dried answer. The more impurity you have, the better the absorption of salvinorin and the stronger the trip, but the worse the flavour for a given amount of leaf.

The other approach you could take is to replace some of the starch with glycerin. Instead of a powder, you would have a paste. The only real requirement here is that the paste must be easily soluble or dispersible in the mouth.

Or you could leave out the starch entirely, and just use glycerin. You won't have a true tincture, because most of the components are not soluble in glycerin. But you may get a stable suspension. If you get phase separation, then that approach is no good.


 
physics envy
#30 Posted : 8/3/2018 6:23:50 PM

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Zebbie wrote:
physics envy wrote:

1) How little starch can be used for a given amount of extract?


Personally I think this is a moot point. Starch contributes little to the flavour or texture of the powder. Starch helps to 'cut' the extract, making dosing easier. It is easier to weigh out 400 mg than 40 mg of powder.


Excellent point!


Zebbie wrote:

So maybe the question should be:

What is the minimum amount of impurity needed to maximize absorption of salvinorin?

From the two experiments I did with crushed leaf v/s ground leaf, I suspect there is no cut and dried answer. The more impurity you have, the better the absorption of salvinorin and the stronger the trip, but the worse the flavour for a given amount of leaf.


That's a point I hadn't really considered either. The leaves I've had - either from my own plants or from online vendors - have had a very mild flavor. I could imagine some strains are much stronger, and taste could become an issue.
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
physics envy
#31 Posted : 8/3/2018 6:44:55 PM

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Zebbie wrote:
Look what I found!

Salvia soft extract

Just shows that there is nothing new under the sun.


Hah. Of course.

And I agree that using a powder is much easier than dealing with beeswax.
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
Zebbie
#32 Posted : 8/4/2018 2:42:21 PM

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In order to develop a better sublingual salvia product, we need to understand the mechanism for transporting salvinorin from the mouth into the bloodstream. I read a few papers on sublingual drug delivery. The models they propose are all very similar. I have summarized my understanding of the model. I have attached a typical paper that discusses the model in more detail.
 
Zebbie
#33 Posted : 8/4/2018 2:55:43 PM

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Here is the summary:

1. Sparingly soluble drugs are transferred rapidly from the mouth into the mucous membrane. This process is driven by the lipophilic nature of the membrane. Typically 80% of the drug is transferred in the first two minutes.

2. Transfer from the mucous membrane into the bloodstream is usually slow. It is this transfer that is the rate-limiting step.

3. The mucous membrane is a storage reservoir for the drug.

4. After swallowing, or rinsing the mouth with water, the drug can diffuse back into the mouth.

*****************

This model explains some of the observations made by physics envy and myself while quidding leaf or powder.

1. Doubling a moderate dose of leaf does not double the intensity of the trip. All it does is extend the duration of the trip. A simple analogy would be emptying a tank of water with a pump. It will take twice as long to empty a full tank, as it would to empty a half full tank.

2. My moderate trips end abruptly. Reason: There is no more salvinorin in the membrane, and the flow of salvinorin into the bloodstream has stopped. In other words, the tank is empty.

A different mechanism applies when we take a big dose. The trip is more intense, and lasts longer. I can only speculate here. Salvinorin and other insoluble material is surrounded by layers of solubilizing molecules, like phospholipids. The salvinorin particles exist as micelles. These micelles readily move into the mucous membrane.

Light dose: The micelle fuses with the cell walls of cells within the mucous membrane. Salvinorin migrates out of the micelle and into the lipophilic material in the membrane. From there, it diffuses into the bloodstream. Hydrophylic substances that carried it into the mucous membrane are either ejected back into the mouth, or metabolized in the membrane.

Heavy dose: The lipophilic material in the mucous membrane is saturated with salvinorin. The excess salvinorin passes straight into the bloodstream, either as stripped salvinorin, or some form of solubilized salvinorin. In terms of the analogy, the tank is filled to overflowing.

I have no way of proving this actually happens. I am a visual learner, and like to think in terms of pictures. I will gladly discard this view if something better comes along.


 
physics envy
#34 Posted : 8/4/2018 10:10:33 PM

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Interesting paper, Zebbie. I don't have anything to add, but I agree it seems to fall in line with our results. Thanks!
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
Zebbie
#35 Posted : 8/7/2018 4:18:20 PM

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I may have some bad news. I don't think the starch powders have good storage stability.

I made powder on the 31 July, and tested 0.8g 24 hours later. Strongest trip ever.
On the 2nd August, I tested 0.2g. The trip was equal to a trip with 1g leaf powder.

Yesterday afternoon (6th August), I tested the balance - 0.19g. The trip was equal to that using 0.3g leaf powder.

Yesterday evening I tested 0.25g of starch powder made on 30th July. (This was powder made with crushed but not ground leaf). The trip was even lighter than the afternoon trip.

 
physics envy
#36 Posted : 8/7/2018 7:25:16 PM

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Would you suspect storing in a freezer may help?
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
Zebbie
#37 Posted : 8/8/2018 10:20:21 AM

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Excellent idea, physics envy!

I will prepare another 1g batch, and leave it in the deep freeze, and see what happens.

At this stage, I can only speculate why there is a drop off in activity.

 
Loveall
#38 Posted : 8/9/2018 7:40:34 PM

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Hi Zebbie. Just want to say that all this is great work. Thank you.
 
Zebbie
#39 Posted : 8/12/2018 8:16:15 PM

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Today I ground 5g of dry salvia leaf. I extracted with acetone (no IPA this time), and deposited it on 1g of corn starch. I reserved 0.2g, and stored the rest in my freezer.

Trip report with 0.2g of the powder:

6' Waves of warmth
11' trip begins
20' trip very intense
32' trip ends abruptly

When the trip ended, I thought I could re-immerse myself, as I often do on trips with ground leaf. But it stubbornly refused to happen. I felt a little cheated by the short duration of this trip.

I will test the balance of the powder (4 x 200mg doses) at weekly intervals, to see if the pattern repeats.

 
physics envy
#40 Posted : 8/13/2018 7:36:42 PM

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Zebbie wrote:
Today I ground 5g of dry salvia leaf. I extracted with acetone (no IPA this time), and deposited it on 1g of corn starch. I reserved 0.2g, and stored the rest in my freezer.

...

32' trip ends abruptly

When the trip ended, I thought I could re-immerse myself, as I often do on trips with ground leaf. But it stubbornly refused to happen. I felt a little cheated by the short duration of this trip.


Wow - that's a pretty short trip. And how strange that it was also intense and not weak. It sounds like you got all of the available salvinorin absorbed quickly, but ran out...how odd!

How many pulls of acetone did you use for this extraction?

I didn't have an opportunity to test over the weekend, so my powder will have a bit more time on the shelf before seeing if it has degraded or not. Hopefully one night this week...


Salvia quid enthusiast
 
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