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DMT and suicide? Options
 
dragonrider
#41 Posted : 6/22/2018 2:49:43 PM

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Kable wrote:
dragonrider wrote:

I think the problem with psychedelic treatments is that you don't need any kind of training or degree to be able to call yourself curandero, shaman or healer.
How can you tell that someone is a genuine healer and not some scammer?


My assumption would be that even the "genuine" shaman/healer is a phony. When Harner talked about the traditional shaman when he lived among the Jivaro's he described at length of how they pretended to suck evil spirits out of their patients while they were on ayahuasca. I think the plants themselves are the healers and the shaman are glorified trip sitters.

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And because of the obvious legal issues, i suppose that medic professionals willing to offer any kind of treatment that includes the administration of psychedelics, are hard to find.


Exactly.

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So with this in mind, i think 'psychedelic therapy' is still a bigger gamble, than seeking the more conventional forms of proffesional help. In spite of the benefits that many psychedelic substances may have over conventional treatments.


That's hard to say. If your psychologist recommends take time to yourself, because you're an introvert who needs to recharge, and then suggests you journal about your feelings, you are probably going to get worse rather than better. Psychology has so many different treatments that you just can't say with any confidence that "seeing a professional" will help. Compared to some professionally administered treatments I would honestly prefer a shaman pretend to suck out my evil spirits.

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It's like there is some new pill that is a promissing cure for a realy terrible disease and you managed to get some of these pills because a batch of them 'fell of a truck' somewhere.
So suppose you have this disease....would you just take these pills without knowing how much of them you should take and how often? And whether you should take them on an empty stomach or not? Or whether you should take them in the morning or in the evening? And without knowing if you can still eat anything you want when you take these pills?

Or would you rather go to a doctor?


Going with your analogy, if I had reason to believe the pills would work and my doctor could not get them for me, I would go on the internet and ask people known to take them and ask, "What dose did you take?" How often did you take them? Did you take them on an empty stomach or full..." You get the idea, which is exactly what the OP was asking.

One thing you can't get from the internet yet, is a proper diagnosis. This is something that professionals are trained for, and do on a daily basis.

Taking DMT could be very beneficial, but it could also be catastrophic when you're dealing with psychiatric disorders. Therefore a proper diagnosis is realy important, because it could help predict whether someone is going to respond well or not.

It is also important to realise that sometimes, people commit suicide on anti-depressants that realy have proven to be effective. These people commit suicide because the antidepressants are working. They commit suicide because they are getting better. They get their emotions back, they start to feel again. They no longer lay in bed all day, feeling nothing. They start to get active. They start doing things, instead of avoiding things.
So because they are getting better, they start getting worse.

The professional guidance of a therapist can be crucial then. Sometimes, in order to get better, you'll need to go through a lot of pain. But not too much pain.
People get overwhelmed with pain, sadness or anger sometimes, and more than they can take.

To be on your own, in such a situation, is not a good idea.

These are things that the internet can't help you with.
 

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Kable
#42 Posted : 6/22/2018 5:12:45 PM
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DmnStr8 wrote:

Of course it is just my opinion!

In matters of life and death I don't think you should give your opinion with such definitive sentences.

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Why the attitude? Why are you jabbing into this so hard?

I don't think I have attitude, though I imagine I'm direct. However, we are talking about suicide and depression and I have a reasonably specialized knowledge in this area, which includes the limitations of the steps you are definitively declaring are of absolute importance. You definitively said, "Do not take psychedelics if you are feeling depressed." However, other people's testimony on this and other threads is that psychedelics were a meaningful part of what helped them. That testimony is anecdotal and thus it's right to question it. But research in the last few years is showing their stories are more the norm than the exception.

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Did you go through something difficult in your life like depression or suicidal thoughts?

Yes.

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I feel like you will likely argue anything here. You want to be right so everyone else has to be wrong.

I have agreed with a lot of what others have said, though not so much with you, so I understand why you would have that perception.

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Do your thing. There are many ways to healing. I feel it is all about the individual. It has to be about the individual.

There is considerable research emerging that suggest that there are maybe 5-10 big causative factors that push mood one way or the other. In a sense that each person has a different proportion of those factors working for or against them, their fix is, in a way, unique. However, those factors are fairly general to what are largely "problems of affluence" in modern life. What works for one generally DOES work for others and commands to see a "professional" as "the correct thing to do" has flaws. Not the least of which being that most professional treatment is objectively inadequate, while at the same time being very expensive.
 
Kable
#43 Posted : 6/22/2018 5:43:55 PM
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dragonrider wrote:

One thing you can't get from the internet yet, is a proper diagnosis. This is something that professionals are trained for, and do on a daily basis.

Not everyone has access to a professional. For the most part I think if you suspect you are depressed you are. If you suspect you have anxiety, you do. You can google the "Beck Depression Inventory" and "Beck Anxiety Inventory" and take the test yourself for free. Clinical and research psychology frequently use such tools for diagnosis. If you have something like schizophrenia, that's different, but fortunately it's considerably more rare.

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Taking DMT could be very beneficial, but it could also be catastrophic when you're dealing with psychiatric disorders. Therefore a proper diagnosis is realy important, because it could help predict whether someone is going to respond well or not.

I don't think research has progressed to the point where it say who psychedelics will be bad for. It does seem to be suggesting that they can be especially good for depression, addiction, with potential for anxiety.

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It is also important to realise that sometimes, people commit suicide on anti-depressants that realy have proven to be effective. These people commit suicide because the antidepressants are working. They commit suicide because they are getting better. They get their emotions back, they start to feel again. They no longer lay in bed all day, feeling nothing. They start to get active. They start doing things, instead of avoiding things.
So because they are getting better, they start getting worse.

I don't think that's an evidence based claim. Overcoming depression might require considerable effort but it need not be painful. Working through your problems is not turning out to be very evidence based. I would argue that research is showing that no anti-depressant is "proven to be effective" but are rather perhaps "slightly effective" yet often combined with real side effects, like weight gain. And weight gain tends to make people more depressed.

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To be on your own, in such a situation, is not a good idea.

These are things that the internet can't help you with.

True, having adequate social support is proving to be very important to mental health so I would agree that people should not be alone, and timer staring at a computer is often more harm than help. However, seeing a psychologist once a week/month arguably isn't going to help with depression as much as joining a basketball league, aerobic class, or drum circle.
 
endlessness
#44 Posted : 6/22/2018 9:42:22 PM

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Quote:




https://www.researchgate..._States_adult_population

It wasn't suicide rates that went down >30% but past year suicide attempts.



Correlation =/= causation. I'm sure you are aware of the difference. Is it an interesting data that indicates we could research this further? Yes.. Does it mean psychedelic use itself is reducing suicide attempts? Not necessarily. It may just point out that people that use psychedelics are generally not the people that kill themselves due to other unrelated pre-existing personality trait, for example. It's at least not an obviously negative data, though, which is a good thing, considering how much defenders of the war on drugs would love to see negative data on this.


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I wouldn't describe it as a long jump at all. We both know DMT is a large component of ayahuasca, and suicide and depression are highly positively correlated. Decrease depression and you are probably decreasing the rates of suicide. Does DMT work as well as ayahuasca? Does ayahuasca work as well as DMT? Answer unknown, but well worth talking about.


The route of administration is different and we are talking about a different set of substances with unique pharmacology. Not saying it absolutely wont work, we are all speculating at this point, but I gave my reasoning why I feel it probably will be less effective . Either way, I'd love to see more research to know better Smile

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I'm unaware of any research suggesting that what works for "treatment resistant" depression will not work for regular depression, or that regular depression and treatment resistant depression are qualitatively different at all. If anything "non-resistant" depression is likely milder and more likely to respond to placebo effects as both cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and drug treatments are having a VERY hard time showing themselves more effective than active placebo treatments. And both drug and CBT trials showing reporting effectiveness have been found to be substantially influenced by poor trial quality and publishers bias. And then you have to wonder if your local psychiatrist/psychologist is up on the research, or if he's still stuck using what he learned in school years ago, which was probably dated then. Not a lot has changed since Leary concluded with psychotherapy that 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse, and 1/3 stay the same.


Good points. I'd still wager before simply taking psychedelic on one's own, which would be a big gamble, it is better to visit a doctor and discuss different options, in order to come up with a multi-leveled treatment plan that may or may not include psychedelics.

You say not all people have access to doctors, or good doctors, but I don't think that is enough reason to suggest as a first option that people take psychedelics on their own. In an equivalent way, we could also suppose people might have bad psychedelics (wrongly id'ed mushroom, improperly extracted dmt, bunk lsd etc). And then if they take alone without supervision, having a bad trip in a bad setting can be disastrous to a normal person, even more to a person with a mental illness of some kind.

Maybe in order of most advisable to least advisable, we could make up a list like that (just an idea, feel free to criticize) :

1- Finding a good doctor (maybe emailing MAPS or other such organizations one could help finding a good open minded doctor in their area), and talk to your doctor about the possibility of consuming psychedelics as a part of a broader treatment the doctor could supervise (lifestyle changes, setting changes, accompanying therapy before and after, etc). Heeding to whatever the doctor decides/suggests.

2- Going with whatever doctor you have access to even if not the ideal doctor, and discussing taking psychedelics, as above.

3- If the doctor is against psychedelic use, attempting whatever non-psychedelic treatment he proposes, and in the case it does not work, attempting life-style changes and other non-invasive alternative treatments. If that doesn't work either, taking (properly identified/pure/tested) psychedelics under supervision of an experienced shaman/trip sitter/friend, and making sure to give a lot of attention to set and setting as well as integration, and discussing with one's doctor so that he is aware of what one is doing.

4- If one does not have access to a doctor, attempting non-psychedelic lifestyle/setting changes, and if that does not work, taking psychedelics under supervision of an experienced shaman/trip sitter/friend, and making sure to give a lot of attention to set and setting as well as integration

5- If one does not have access to a doctor and neither a trip sitter, attempting non-psychedelic lifestyle/setting changes, and if that does not work and one is desperate with no alternatives, taking first caapi-only (considering one is not taking medication that interacts with it) due to the pharmacological benefits mentioned in earlier post, and if caapi isn't enough, taking aya with dmt or other psychedelics while being in the nexus chat for support or in tripsit website, and making sure to give a lot of attention to set and setting as well as integration

Does that seem reasonable and a happy medium to the different points of view presented in this thread?


Quote:

To turn things more positive yet unrelated to drugs, this guy's (who I don't know) multifactorial treatment plan does seem legitimately evidence based and you can buy his book used for $4. His 6 components off the top of my head were:

1) Fish oil
2) Cardiovascular Exercise
3) Early morning sunlight (or bright light therapy, or more modern would be blue light therapy)
4) Social support
5) Adequate Sleep
6) DON'T RUMINATE!


I like that list, it's what I was trying to get at with "positive lifestyle changes" . I'd change "fish oil" for "good nutrition" though, I think it's very important to have a balanced nutrition which can include the fish oil as well as other things. Also vitamin D specially for those not living between the tropics.
 
null24
#45 Posted : 6/22/2018 9:45:39 PM

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Blissabyss, I'm so terribly sorry. With all the responding to and policing trolls and jokers trying to derail your thread for whatever reason i completely missed your valuable responses, including your more detailed description of your initial depersonalizing experience and the subsequent struggle.

Thank you for bringing it back in line,

I can empathize somewhat with what you described. I'm struggling to find words to help or comfort you, a powerful experience like that is very hard to comprehend let alone integrate.

Everything you know was exploded during a psychedelic event that was more real than anything you've ever endured before, yet it occurred "inside your head" and you're left with so many more questions than any you may have had answered. Is it something like that?

Continuing to have the depersonalization persist for more than a year which is what i think you said is troubling. When i was struggling with borderline psychosis after my 5meoDMT breakthrough it eventual self resolved within a couple months, leaving all the veracity i had in what happened intact but i could now begin getting a better understanding of what i went through and what steps to take next.

I am glad it wasn't n,n DMT with which my initial breakthrough occurred. Comparatively 5meoDMT is so much "quieter" for me. I feel that the hallucinatory nature of n,n would have been incredibly confusing. I've had one "hyper slap" style breakthrough with it and it was genuinely traumatic. With the 5, i just died, let go, went through a 'tunnel' ala an NDE and encountered the Voidspace. Ha ha, "just". Yyyeahh.

With n,n the death of self was accompanied by so much sturm und drang of color light and sound-along with Spirit Molecule style alien surgeons, body destroying digital Kalis, and other catastrophic hallucinations really shook me up. I remember walking in silence afterwards out of the woods. Well, not exactly, i must've said what the f**k just happened dozens of times.

It does seem like you do have am understanding of what i believe to be the ultimate take away when you spoke of treating others with kindness. There is darkness in the world, but there is love in the human mind.

I'm sorry, dealing with all those questions and seeming to stand outside of reality while suffering suicidality is, a tough place to be. Please continue to seek places and people to help you find a solid course through the door you've opened. You have been shown something and nothing has ever just happened to you. Find the why.

Look into finding a way to access talk therapy with someone you can at least respect and who understands your world view so you can talkabout this. Hang out here and ask questions, you are obviously sincere and for all of us i apologize for grandstanding self serving trolls and teenage monkey-jokers,we really don't have many of either; they stand out enough to be able to derail a thread through castigating them over behavior.

Maybe get involved with the psychedelic community, there may be a group or people helping each other integrate experiences in your area but if not that's what we're here for among things, and there are many others.

A word of advice to be very careful going it all alone, especially in the community. You are in an extremely vulnerable state and are not alone. Many who avail themselves of psychedelic experiences within the new paradigm in which they occur are doing so in search of help with something or another, and by default are vulnerable to any number of predators. Many are having powerful experiences with facilitators who don't offer aftercare and coming out more confused than going in. Don't believe anything ANY person offering any kind of service, especially for money, at face value. Investigate.Investigate. Investigate!

Do things to take you out of your self, but right now is not a good time to go out of your head-in MY opinion. With the state your consciousness is in, you may be able to explore deep states with breath, lucid dreaming, astral travel etc without drugs and find some understanding of the depth of possibility of your mind. In those explorations you may find some value that is lacking that may pause your suicidal thinking, but my educated opinion is that further exploration-ESPECIALLY with n,n DMTis not a good idea.

I AM you, and you ARE me, we are all together and it would hurt the hell out of me if you left on purpose.

TLDR: Be good to you.Thumbs up

Love
Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
*γνῶθι σεαυτόν*
 
Kable
#46 Posted : 6/23/2018 12:06:58 AM
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blyssabyss wrote:
Basically if someone is severely depressed & suicidal is it okay to take dmt? I took it when I was in such a state before and it helped me. It made me NOT want to kill myself. Is this a fluke or is it known to have this effect?


Googling psychedelics and suicide I found this:

"This experience of "dying" in the psychedelic experience is not a particularly rare one and numerous other writers have made reference to it. And the subsequent "rebirth," as was the case with this subject, often is into a "new life" with "all the old troubles left behind." However, there is another facet to this case which seems of particular interest. The subject remarks that:

"It was absolutely essential that I die. It was not the depression alone that created this urgent need within me. I had lived with the depression for years and while it was extremely painful it was not beyond my ability to endure. No, there was something else that I cannot explain beyond saying how I felt. There was this inescapable and irresistible feeling that I must die. I am absolutely certain that had I not 'died* in the LSD session I would have had to die in some other way, and that could only have meant really dying. Committing suicide, destroying myself, as I surely would have done.""


Quote from page 142 of The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience, circa 1966. There was a quite a bit more talk about both depression and suicide. They were talking about LSD rather than DMT but the experiences and precautions sound very similar.
 
Kable
#47 Posted : 6/23/2018 12:17:28 AM
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blyssabyss wrote:

This is getting hard to type about but basically I want to do it again to confirm what happened but this time I am much more scared of it. The first time because I was suicidal I figured anything could happen and it would be okay with me, I feel like maybe that's why such a deep impactful breakthrough happened...(?) This time around I feel desperate for that bit of truth & connectedness I felt the first time.

If you chose to do it again, for which I wouldn't say you should or shouldn't, but if you did. I would think it best to go in without any expectations. The description of your last trip is amazing, even by DMT standards, so if you expect it to be like that, you might be disappointed. And if you try and steer it like that, it would likely work against you. But if you go into it like, "fuck it, whatever," those are the best trips, IMO.
 
blyssabyss
#48 Posted : 6/28/2018 1:25:51 AM

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I didn't mean to start drama but I guess with topics this deep & complex it's almost inevitable.

The trip wasn't negative even though I went to hell. I know hell implies darkness/negativity but it wasn't that black & white. It didn't leave me depersonalized after actually. Being in that connected source I felt this really profound sense of being right where I'm supposed to be in this body/mind & reality right as I 'woke up' from the breakthrough. It was actually mind blowing for me to 'wake up'/come back to my body right when I did. It felt like an important message telling me you are the person you are supposed to be, this is happening for a reason, even your flaws are supposed to be here. Almost like being given a map and the map was showing me that in order to reach what I wanted (happiness) I had to go right through the suffering with no other way around.

Before I took it I was very unhappy and I frankly didn't think it would work at all but it worked in ways I could of never predicted no matter how much I had read about it previously. I hoped, wished, and prayed that I'd be given knowledge (like others had) but when I'm in a state of depression those hopes are pushed to the subconscious and consciously I thought something along the lines of that I'm too stupid or simple to really get something out of it.

But I did.

So here is my trip report:

The best way I can describe most but NOT all of it visually is a lot like a Zdzisław Beksiński painting in both color and landscape: http://beksinski.dmochow...t/galeria.php?artist=52, http://beksinski.dmochow...net/galeria.php?artist=1 While it was mostly that, a lot of the flashing images were more traditionally psychedelic. Very colorful with both organic and exact geometric shapes: http://40.media.tumblr.c...8WZw31qk9f10o1_1280.jpg. Btw Beksinski has always been one of my favorite artists and I've always spent a long time looking at his paintings feeling as if they were like memories of dreams captured visually.

After I 'woke up' (returned from the breakthrough into hyperspace) I was still tripping softly for what felt like an hour, and I was crying involuntarily which didn't surprise me considering everything I just experienced. The tears weren't at all associated with negative feelings btw.

The breakthrough FELT super long, felt like eons. Later I find out that I was in hyperspace 20 mins tops. When it first started there was a cluster of experiences that I can't even put into words. In fact it's hard to 'remember' cerebrally because it was such a foreign and abstract experience. For the most part it was like image after image being downloaded directly into my brain. Eventually I broke through into a place that my human brain can make more sense of (at least relatively) and I'm able to recall specific visuals better from that.

In the breakthrough that I can put into words I start out by dying.

I'm in the afterlife... There are a lot of people there. Everyone I've ever known or heard of without exception. I don't see any of them specifically but I know they are there. I can feel their auras as light. It's dark. I can't see them, only feel them.

We are like specks of dust on a long surface. We don't have bodies or anything left but we are still individuals. No appearance. No body. I sense we are here. And sensing a great expanse of space which feels good against my completely dissolved body.

We are in Hell, it sounds scary, but it wasn't. I got the distinct feeling that it was precisely Hell. The same Hell they talk about in the Bible. The same Hell in Hieronymus Bosch pictures. In retrospect I imagine my trip went this way because of my deeply religious background; those archetypes might of influenced me.

Then the first thing we 'see'(and feel), its the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in life or death. It feels like my soul would be torn up from looking at it if I weren't already dead. It's also so sad. It's HUGE. Incredible sadness. And dark, blackness, bleakness. All twisted up inside it's self. It's timeless. It's a woman. The appearance is too alien, foreign, and abstract to describe here with words, but she looks sort of like a complex space ship. The feeling of profound beauty and sadness. A sense that it is feminine or a woman as well. She is very graceful, with almost feline delicacy and refinement even though she's so convoluted at the same time.

We are like specks of dust. It seems as large as I would be to the point of a pen on the table, maybe larger. Like how large my body would seem to a speck of dust on the table I'm typing on. That's how large she was to us. It was a very good feeling comparatively against my dissolved body. The feeling of being so small. She was moving through us. We were more or less like vapor or mist without physical form.

The sense of size, especially compared to my dissolved body was incredibly splendid. I felt no fear, only awe.

Because of her beauty and the experience we all start 'worshiping' (only word I could think of) her right away. I think we would be crying just from seeing her, but since we have no bodies its more like we are vibrating. Or glowing.

I know she's 'Lucifer'. No one says it distinctly but it's just another feeling. Like how I know we are in Hell. Then she creates hell out of the void. I mean we are already in hell, but she gives it a physical appearance. She draws it out of nothingness. Thinks it into being. And it starts kind of simply...

There are only two sides, to my left a field of sick/grey blue, and the right a forest of sick grey yellow. To the left a man with hanging ears, the size of a tree. I'm still a spirit. Most of us are, but we choose a side. It doesn't matter which. They are both the same. On the blue side trees of hanging ears with ooze coming out of them, on the yellow side fungus, mushrooms, and tumors. Though in many ways it's 'gross' it's also extremely beautiful. The details are infinitely expanding and constantly shifting. The size and scope of the landscape is incredible.

As we choose we fade into our side, becoming either ear trees, or yellow tumor mushroom hills. This is what our bodies and minds become. Fade into the hillside and pop up again as a part of the biological landscape.

I feel the man with the ears put his arms around me, drawing me to his side. Which feels really weird since now I'm a tree of ears, which foul smelling earwax dripping down. Others across from me down a valley the turn into the yellow tumors and mushrooms. Behind me, a forest of hanging dripping ears who use to be people. Hairs grow in the holes. Earwax all through out. Melting grey blue flesh between us, like soft fatty meat.

It starts. It's like a play, everyone has a very specific place, and everyone is important. I would imagine that looking upon it and not being apart of it it would be very disgusting. But being a part of it I feel very important and special. I feel like we are going to act out something, the events already laid out before us. No free will.

It's beautiful.

Then Lucifer says she is going to sleep. Well she doesn't actually speak. We all know what is happening. Across the fields of flesh (which is us), there is a snow covered landscape of rock and snow. It's there she goes there to sleep. She says her job is done. She wants to 'die'. Though this is a confusing statement because in the state that we are in death takes on a different meaning.

All the landscape IS created of us, the souls; but the snowy rocky place doesn't have a human soul in it. It's empty. Which in it's own way is very strikingly magnificent.

We don't stay the way we are. We change shapes when she leaves. It feels like a lot of time has passed however. A lot of time and transformation.

The blue and yellow forest of sickness fades away. We change back into what we sort of looked like as humans, a shape with two arms and legs. Faces. Maybe not us who we were as humans, but human enough to move the way we use to and feel physically somewhat of the way we use to. It's harder for some than others...

There is a lot of melting, as minds meld together, some are taken away with too much, others only half of the essence that they were before. Some souls/'beings' are torn, taken along with many many others or fading into space. Merging together.

In Hell what I'm describing is another death. It comes up many times again. This time it was because of the intermixing of all of us into a living landscape, we all reform a bit changed. Many minds and lives inter-tangle and we emerge as someone else. Ego Death but inter-tangling with others too. I gain their memories and I know what lives they lived as humans.

It takes will power to stay the same. To 'keep yourself together' in hell. (It will come up again later, I call it hyperdying). Basically to keep the most basic particles that form you in one spot long enough to create a physical looking form. What you have to do is remember yourself.

Reformed, we follow her. The majority of us who haven't faded. There's other spaces that you fall into. Many directions to go. More directions than a flat field. You can move higher or lower not just left and right like in the living world. Most of us for some reason have this calling to follow her, so that's what we do.

Despite the appearance of this place, which is exactly what everyone thinks hell to be (torture, hideousness), the emotion in it is nothing like pain. Or anything I can associate with negative at all. In fact these 'punishments' or strange visuals are more fantastic, thrilling, and beautiful than anything I've experienced in life. I don't think the goal is to torture or punish, just that the entire place is overgrown... like left alone to it's own devices for eons. I know that's a contradiction. Ageless, where entities have grown out of nothingness and have no concept of the spectrum of emotions humans have. It wasn't like the 'real' world; but it was a type of real where rules didn't apply. It made what is defined as real irreverent in this world. Since nothing was living, time had no consequence on it. Events still happened. There was a flow... but it was a disjointed flow. Rules didn't apply, the longer you spend there the more this was obvious and the less you felt you could keep your soul together. If all of that realization happened at once it was overwhelming. It was like hyperdying (the sudden Body Deconstruction and Ego Death).

I'm one of the people who follow Lucifer first. I have to crawl though other peoples flesh and memories to emerge. Its like living many lives. I see and feel things they felt. our minds entangle then separate again. and many many feelings I could never imagine during waking or living. It's very intimate... and messy. I guess it could be considered something like sex or reproduction, only a huge difference of how we see sex as 'dirty' in the real world but this was completely natural.

Everything shifts. Then I'm a woman and I'm in a ocean of feces. All the feces, vomit, urine that humans ever made -specifically in this place, making an ocean. We can see the shore but we can never get to it. Wave after wave of feces pull us under but we can't drown.

I feel like the smell alone would of killed us if we weren't already dead.

Almost everyone here is a woman. Women in suburban houses floating on top of the feces. Trying to build floating houses on it. Trying to keep up the appearance of their homes even though the feces sprays everywhere. They just attempt to clean it off again. I don't understand this. But I still try to swim for the shore in vain. Like many are.

There are famous people here, and they are doing a pretty good job building their houses on other people's houses, looking down, and laughing at them. As they build, it causes some people's houses to sink further into feces.

The really famous self important ones they can stear clear of the crap kind of well. They flaunt this and laugh at the ones struggling below.

Then tidal waves wash away their houses too. The water always pulls back before a wave hits. There is much scrambling and tension, as people try and cover themselves somehow. Everyone eventually gets covered. Maybe not the first wave, but more and more come in. The smell... lol I remember it well. I've been covered since the start. The ones who were trying to cover themselves wail and cry at their foulness.

A storm is coming. Thunder and lightening above the ocean of feces.

Then it snows, the snow is white but it smells foul. More foul than the ocean of feces if it's possible. The woman wail. It gets on everyone. Not one person can take shelter.

We still can't swim all the way to the shore, so we are freezing. In the shit and snow, many just crawling over another.

The waves pull back, we think another title wave is coming. But we look out on to the distance. It is a wave, but not of feces anymore, its a tidal wave of wolves.

The water recedes so far. The horror and tension of seeing the wave of wolves is deeply disturbing. We are on dry land now so we run.

The forest is covered in the foul pale snow, which burns a bit when it touches my moist skin.

From far away it looks like all these black wolves that are tearing towards us, after us, but as it gets closer we see its a war going on between these dark wolves and these pale ones. Dark brown/black and grey/white.

All the women run as fast as they can. But I hide in the ground, as the waves of wolves crashes in, I crawl under a tree. Into the snowy earth. Its cold, muddy, and dusty; another girl comes with me, and a white wolf follows us. It's obvious this wolf wont hurt us, the dark ones seem blood thirsty. Us three bury deeper, trying to cover ourselves, hid ourselves in the dead brown leaves and soil.

We tunnel through the dead leaves, and it's like I'm looking at brown dead leaves for the first time, the colors, the spider webs, the dead twigs and sticks... I feel like if I look at a dark crevice of undergrowth too long I might be sucked in... it's so bleak and wintry. Yet... Beyond beautiful. I'm seeing lack of colors sometimes yet the dull colors that there are never seemed so brilliant. I sense spirits haunt the negative space and shadows surrounding every crevice. I mingling of my senses in a strange way a bit like synesthesia.

This is a change in the dream. The sense that negative space sounding an object has a ghost, in shadows or crevices, rather than the object it's self having a soul. A sense of all objects and space having a soul or being haunted. It's beautiful, very expansive, and vast.

We bury ourselves deep in the underbrush, crawling through. Until we find ourselves in a forest. A dead forest, a forest of perpetual winter. It's breathtaking. Stunning. Kalonkinesioöptic. Bleak and dark but every corner and crack on a twig on the ground is alive. Again dull colors yet somehow seem brilliant. Like they are covered in a thin layer of opalescent colors. Feels like whispers all around, timeless entities, demons, faeries, something. Souls that reach out, stretch out, and you get flashes of non human emotions. Emotionally I feel life all around. Inhuman life.

There is a trail in the woods. We follow it. Certain its going to lead us to the goddess Lucifer. That's what we are all after. We want to wake her up? Or something like that I'm not sure why we are after her, but we are damn determined. We are like warriors. Soldiers. We have a purpose to get to her. I'm not sure what it is, but I know we are persevering.

The woods, as I've already described them are magical... voices and whispers of demons/entities, so many paths to follow. Observing a caterpillar on the tree for too long and you become that caterpillar. Glimpse into a crevice below a fallen tree and you fall in. Like space and galaxies hidden in the shadows. You can lose yourself and you can die and fade away because of how many places you are being pulled in the details. The magnitude of eternity has never felt more real. Almost like the crevices of the leaves and stuff have cities in it. A lot like this picture: http://robotpainter.tumblr.com/image/124823142187, only more details in the trip and just more beautiful.

Most of us we follow the trail. Along the trail there are stones at random intervals, about the size of a gravestone. There is writing on it like hieroglyphs, they are pictures. For some reason I can read them even though they are in another alien language.

The first one we pass it says something like 'vampires' or 'cannibals'. As soon as you cross the thresh hold, walk past the stone, you are curse with whatever the stone has set.

So we try to cannibalize without killing each other. Merging both flesh and spirit. It's both disturbing and freeing.

And the next stone we pass it says 'bodiless'.

I talked about this a little bit earlier. We loose our forms, the poorly self designed ones from before. And this is scary and a challenge. it's hard to keep your mind in one place, without a body to house it. Some people 'die' as in all of who they are fade into space, you have to move all your particles together or you fade away, which is worse than death. It's a second death when you are in the afterlife.

The next stone says 'fear'.

And it's exactly what it sounds like. We are filled with fear, beyond anything I can feel while alive. It's just pure fear... it's a world of fear with no room for no other emotion. You would think fear would be pretty basic, but it's evolved to almost an art form at this point. It practically stumps us in our tracks. The only time I've experienced fear like this is during hypnagogic situations (sleep paralysis).

We keep passing stones, and each stone something worse happens. Pilled on one another.

One stone was 'pestilence/disease'.

All of these things pile on top of one another. One curse doesn't make the other go away, they just pile.

Many people die 'fade' along the way, or their spirit entangles it's self too much in a curse, and in the ground and in the forest. They set down roots. They turn into houses. Their bodies/souls bury themselves into the ground and grown on and in each other. But they are not the houses themselves much like we were the fungus and ears themselves at the start. They are the shadows in the windows or doorways. They are ghosts that haunt these biological houses. The houses were box like. They were tiny, like tangled into the underbrush from the way I saw it. But also they were vast too, staring too intently at one would draw you into the city. But looking past it was like I was just looking at part of the forest.

Demons started to take residence here. And this was the capitol city of Hell. "Bahst" I just heard voices/whispers saying that word as the name of the city.

Through out the dream it stays beautiful. Even though it's the definition of ugly, putrid, and touches on the most deeply foul emotions imaginable. Still it's beautiful and we trudge on. I know I've described some disturbing imagery so far but believe me when I tell you it was somehow astonishing beauty through out... It's hard to believe or understand but it's true.

Another place we come upon. It's like a desert of skin. Peoples skin all tied together. Melting together. Puddles of flesh. They are fornicating(?). They are having some kind of party. It's really very disgusting. At first they keep asking me to join.

At parts its like flesh melted together, but other places its all these people in fancy outfits, like 18th century only amazing brilliant almost alien colors. They are getting high somehow on something and partying, perhaps getting high off merging together and various ego deaths over and over again? There is no shortage of experiences to explore here.

They keep insisting I like it. Not even asking but telling me. I leave.

Trudging through that it's just disjointed memories/experiences from other people and demons. Flashing visuals. Many of the visuals are beautiful. Colorful. Cities from other planets... Too difficult to put into words and too beautiful as well. One planet is like paradise with lots of water all over it even in the cities the roads are water. Many visuals from earth or human (human-like) entities but such a strange collage of past and future. Intertwined with kaleidoscope visions, organic shapes mixed with rigid yet shinning geometric shapes. Defiantly Mangotanglement, but aesthetics from other universes too. Most images are going too fast for me to recall in detail.

The closer we get to Lucifer, that's when the demons come in. All they are is like bits of Lucifer.

What they do it's hard to describe. It's like magic. They draw out experiences for the human souls. Like they have powers they can just create out of space. Just think things into being, and in some sense so can I; well I can get past all of it just by thinking myself into a different area.

Time becomes irreverent. Time is like matter, you can think around it.

The deeper these feelings become the more beautiful Hell starts to appear. Maybe not 'beautiful' in the common sense of the word, but awe inspiring and mind-blowing. To the point where I wonder how any part of my conscious or subconscious could ever convince of it. Though out I've felt it was so foreign and amazing it really felt like it couldn't be a drug or just my mind making it up. It felt so vivid. Entities were so separate from myself and real seeming. Yet also a sense of familiarity. Always like I've been here before.

I can't describe it. Which saddens me deeply even though it makes me happy to of had the experience.

It's scary only because I felt, like I've felt in dreams before, like my essence is being stretched over a long point in time and space... I start to grow in size (common theme in dreams and nightmares). As I grow I become smaller relative to the expanse. It's mind blowing.

I'm this large thing now. Like the demons. Nothing is scary, and nothing is painful. But their ARE emotions. Just more complex than during life. There are visuals, just more complex.

No need for survival in the waking sense, so no need for the same spectrum of emotions as waking. I'm experiencing a set of emotions totally foreign. So there are no words to write them down as. I'm not alive and not nothing either, it changes everything. No more priorities, no hunger, or fear, or pain. No fear of anything except the possibility my mind stretches too far and I fade into nothing... (Dissolving...)

Eventually we come to a castle. Lucifer's castle.

Right before we get there we have to fight these unicorns. They are made of crystals and their horns are pure light. I have no idea how to describe but a voice in my head says that exact sentence. The voice tells me to describe it that way later when I relay my experiences to others. They move without moving. Looking at them its like seeing a statue yet they are constantly moving. Something about them, they exist without time. In another dimension. The time that they are contained in is hard for my mind to comprehend.

After that a void of nothingness, we cross and almost loose our sense of self completely. That sense of fading, of being stretched that I talked about, it's very tantalizing and amazing to feel. It's hard to keep your mind and ego in one place. It's hard to remember that I was ever a human.

Finally we are at her castle, or where she sleeps. It's black and cold, like the forest (yet still brilliant with colors, in fact the color black it's self is so brilliant and indescribable - a yawning endless abyss you could fall into when ever you see it). Still haunted though. It's so bleak yet it feels like every rock is alive and haunted with a spirit. I know her soul has stretched around the place, timeless.

The inside is nothing but books. At least nothing else that I could see or tell. Like a endless library (The Akashic library?).

All the books are all the experiences of all creatures; it's VERY large. Vast like being in outer space, only being able to see all of it. The decoration inside is beautiful, a lot of it is white marble with intricate, detailed, elegant gothic like details. Still other places its decorated in rough cut stone like brutalist architecture. In some places like being inside of a creature's body or a Giger Painting. In a lot of places it's comfy like Hogwarts and familiar like I was born there. Like I've been there before.

A book is like a life, holding all the experiences of a entity in it. Not just a human's life but other creatures lives too. Both animals, plants, and aliens across the universe. You don't read it in a conventional sense but you experience it. You live it. When you pick up a 'book' you live the entire life of that creature and while you are inside the 'book' you think it is you - your ego. For the moment that you are experiencing it.

She, Lucifer, had read all of them.

The souls spread out, including myself, and we are ever curious about the books.

We know Lucifer is there, we can see her now, but no one talks to her, we are just looking at the books at first, which are infinitely interesting.

Then there is a book keeper. This pure man. I don't know how else to describe it. He is just so simple, like the first human ever made. Nothing special, very humble, but still the most untainted uncomplicated thing I've seen in Hell. A different kind of beauty than anything I had seen in the dream so far. Rather than him feeling gigantic and haunted he felt so simple that it carried its own new beauty that was just as indescribable. Absolute minimalism.

Just a man, but I get the feeling that he is Jesus. He doesn't have a experience like the rest of us. He doesn't want or desire. He's just the book keeper. He just is.

Lucifer she seems irritated that everything she threw at us didn't stop us from getting to her, and she seems very tired. She just lets us in the library, leaves us to read all the universes knowledge. She doesn't care.

This is when things change in the trip, the feeling at least. We aren't struggling anymore.

I read books, and without knowing it I think all of us read for eons. By the end of it we know all the languages of gods, humans, animals. All this information. We know everything she knows but I don't feel any different. I don't feel smarter. I don't feel like a god or a transcended soul.

Instead the memories of hell tug as if I want to live another human life and suffer all over again. Lucifer fades away even, I think we aren't sure if she is gone or just grown so large she fades into the books themselves. But she's buried deep somewhere, we just can't see her anymore.

This time that she is gone she is with the book keeper: Jesus.

All this time I think something has been happening to the earth.

I'm not sure what, but the end of the vision is hard to remember. We all go to heaven, it's on earth though, all the dead are reincarnated. Everything that has happened in my travels replays very fast like it's going backwards like rewinding a tape.

We are like Lucifer at the end, so large, and tangled into the void, parts of my mind are no longer human. Through it all, none of it was as important as that book keeper. None of it meant anything without their love.

Some kind of beauty within this love that requires both the infinite vast complication of Hell along with the strikingly simple minimalistic beauty of Jesus.

Somehow at the end Lucifer and him become lovers, through this understanding and need for one another.

Nothing was as important as love.

Through out it feels like a battle though, to get there. An epic journey. A catabasis.

Everything starts over in the end and then... The most mind blowing part:

I'm human again when I wake up.
 
DmnStr8
#49 Posted : 6/28/2018 2:16:23 AM

Come what may


Posts: 1698
Joined: 08-Mar-2015
Last visit: 23-Mar-2019
Lucifer in Latin is translated as light bringing. Interesting that you were shown all these revelations through this character you called Lucifer. I found your experience enthralling to say the least. Amazing experience!

The first thing I thought of as I read through your experience report was 'evolution'. Sounds like an evolution in many ways. Learning, forgetting, hell, death, life, fear, and transformation. All parts of evolving I feel.

"You are the person you are suppose to be, this is happening for a reason, even your flaws are supposed to be here." This right here is very profound to me. I have received this message as well. It sticks with me becasue if this applies to me than it applies to everyone else as well. I found a whole hearted acceptance if everything in this life after truly understanding what this message meant for me. We do have to go through a certain amount of suffering and pain to evolve. To wake up maybe. To realize that we are here for a purpose. A purpose that we cannot fully ever understand. We are all evolving something it feels like.

Thank you very much for sharing this remarkable experience! I could say so much more about what I think about what you have shared here. It really struck a chord with me! Truly amazing what kind of experiences we can have in this life!

Thumbs up
"In the universe there is an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans call intent, and absolutely everything that exists in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link." ~Carlos Castaneda
 
Doc Buxin
#50 Posted : 6/28/2018 7:22:19 AM

Pay No Mind


Posts: 934
Joined: 28-Dec-2014
Last visit: 26-Jan-2021
Location: 40th Parallel
DmnStr8 wrote:
...We do have to go through a certain amount of suffering and pain to evolve. To wake up...



Ya think?Laughing Laughing Laughing


What do you think we're all on this plane of existence for? To be comfy-cozy all the time? Hell, if that were the case, we'd all be like the average American. Laughing Laughing Laughing Never evolving past any level of consciousness and stagnant souls abounding! Oh wait, that's how the (human) world IS ALREADY. So get off your lazy ass and DO something about yourself.

The only way one changes the world is to change oneself. You can yell in the streets, write letters to your so-called representatives and feel sorry for yourself through myriad lifetimes and it won't do a damn thing.

Get into your suffering. Face it, head on. Let it engulf you. Let it flow through you. And LET IT GO.

This is the only way we make progress. Anything else is pretty much just spiritual masturbation.

Pain and suffering are inherent once you're born (probably for the fifteen millionth time). Get used to it. They are your friends, because they alone push you and teach you to be gentle with yourself and others. And being gentle with yourself and others will open up all sorts of new insights and ways of feeling that you've never felt before. It takes not a small amount of serious self-discipline to make it through the bullshit (excuse my language) and at some point you realize that the bullshit never ends (again, excuse me please) until we all finally merge into the ONE.

But then the ONE gets bored and lonely and the whole damn cycle of eons starts all over again (what is one [with a little "o"] to do?Confused Rolling eyes Big grin


May we all find our Peace
Freedom's so hard
When we are all bound by laws
Etched in the scheme of nature's own hand
Unseen by all those who fail
In their pursuit of fate
 
DmnStr8
#51 Posted : 6/28/2018 1:52:34 PM

Come what may


Posts: 1698
Joined: 08-Mar-2015
Last visit: 23-Mar-2019
Doc Buxin wrote:
DmnStr8 wrote:
...We do have to go through a certain amount of suffering and pain to evolve. To wake up...



Ya think?Laughing Laughing Laughing


What do you think we're all on this plane of existence for? To be comfy-cozy all the time? Hell, if that were the case, we'd all be like the average American. Laughing Laughing Laughing Never evolving past any level of consciousness and stagnant souls abounding! Oh wait, that's how the (human) world IS ALREADY. So get off your lazy ass and DO something about yourself.

The only way one changes the world is to change oneself. You can yell in the streets, write letters to your so-called representatives and feel sorry for yourself through myriad lifetimes and it won't do a damn thing.

Get into your suffering. Face it, head on. Let it engulf you. Let it flow through you. And LET IT GO.

This is the only way we make progress. Anything else is pretty much just spiritual masturbation.

Pain and suffering are inherent once you're born (probably for the fifteen millionth time). Get used to it. They are your friends, because they alone push you and teach you to be gentle with yourself and others. And being gentle with yourself and others will open up all sorts of new insights and ways of feeling that you've never felt before. It takes not a small amount of serious self-discipline to make it through the bullshit (excuse my language) and at some point you realize that the bullshit never ends (again, excuse me please) until we all finally merge into the ONE.

But then the ONE gets bored and lonely and the whole damn cycle of eons starts all over again (what is one [with a little "o"] to do?Confused Rolling eyes Big grin


May we all find our Peace


I wholeheartedly agree with everything you stated here! It took me quite some time to learn this for myself. Thank you for putting the into a clearer perspective as only you can Doc!

Thumbs up
"In the universe there is an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans call intent, and absolutely everything that exists in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link." ~Carlos Castaneda
 
blyssabyss
#52 Posted : 6/28/2018 9:17:35 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 16
Joined: 24-Dec-2017
Last visit: 30-Jan-2019
Location: USA
DmnStr8 wrote:
Lucifer in Latin is translated as light bringing. Interesting that you were shown all these revelations through this character you called Lucifer. I found your experience enthralling to say the least. Amazing experience!

The first thing I thought of as I read through your experience report was 'evolution'. Sounds like an evolution in many ways. Learning, forgetting, hell, death, life, fear, and transformation. All parts of evolving I feel.

"You are the person you are suppose to be, this is happening for a reason, even your flaws are supposed to be here." This right here is very profound to me. I have received this message as well. It sticks with me becasue if this applies to me than it applies to everyone else as well. I found a whole hearted acceptance if everything in this life after truly understanding what this message meant for me. We do have to go through a certain amount of suffering and pain to evolve. To wake up maybe. To realize that we are here for a purpose. A purpose that we cannot fully ever understand. We are all evolving something it feels like.

Thank you very much for sharing this remarkable experience! I could say so much more about what I think about what you have shared here. It really struck a chord with me! Truly amazing what kind of experiences we can have in this life!

Thumbs up


Thank you. I teared up reading this.
 
Doc Buxin
#53 Posted : 6/28/2018 11:54:45 PM

Pay No Mind


Posts: 934
Joined: 28-Dec-2014
Last visit: 26-Jan-2021
Location: 40th Parallel
blyssabyss wrote:
DmnStr8 wrote:
..."You are the person you are suppose to be, this is happening for a reason, even your flaws are supposed to be here."....


Thank you. I teared up reading this.



That is a great way to start!!!

If you can tear up reading something that really moves you...moves you deeply enough to tear up, then, hey, well, you've just won half the battle blyssabyss!Thumbs up

Why is that you may ask?

Because you can still feel deeply, which means you still have a vibrant soul left to do so with. Anyone who is a truly lost cause, and believe me I've met many of them in my lifetime, can't feel that deeply, period. They have shut that part of themselves down a long time ago because they were afraid of pain and suffering and didn't want to feel that way anymore. Believing that you can do this without serious consequence is the greatest folly of fools, I kid you not.

So rejoice in your sadness! Rejoice in your madness! Rejoice in your sorrows! Rejoice in your joys and triumphs too (even the little so-called "insignificant" ones, because sometimes those are the ones that make all the difference!

May Peace be with you always blyssabyss.
Freedom's so hard
When we are all bound by laws
Etched in the scheme of nature's own hand
Unseen by all those who fail
In their pursuit of fate
 
tryptographer
#54 Posted : 6/30/2018 2:54:26 AM

tryptamine photographer


Posts: 760
Joined: 01-Jul-2008
Last visit: 21-Aug-2023
Wow blyssabyss, that's one of the most profound trip reports I've ever read! Incredible how much you managed to remember.
Thanks for taking the time to write it down and share it.

Also thanks for the tip about Beksinski, great painter indeed - I'm ashamed I didn't know him!

I can totally imagine your hesitation to use DMT again, it's no joke... big decision only you can make.
 
jbark
#55 Posted : 7/3/2018 2:22:47 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member

Posts: 2854
Joined: 16-Mar-2010
Last visit: 01-Dec-2023
Location: montreal
Amazing report Blissabyss!!

You should post this write up as a separate report - it is so deserving and I am sure you will get a lot of feedback, if that is what you are looking for.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, and every sentence took me on a journey.

I hope you have managed to integrate it all - that is one hell of a trip...

JBArk
JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
 
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