The forum rules are that we can't share experiences? Or discuss pertinent research findings? That's "advice" that goes against the collective?

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=20759

specifically:

"Advice to take a massive dose or get cured by dosing
Again, when people are in great need for relief, giving someone with suicide tendencies or serious mental condition the advice to take a massive dose of entheogens will very likely not cure this person. If a person visits the DMT-Nexus they most likely tried that already. Also the effects of entheogens is highly unpredictable, even more so for people with mental conditions, so there is no way to safely know psychedelics will help, quite possibly they will worsen the situation.

Psychedelics can strengthen the delusion of people in a bad way. If a person has delusional ideas and we give advice to take psychedelics, chances are that this will backfire.

Advice to NOT visit a professional western medical person
Many people in their lives have had a bad experience with professional western medical help. This has happened with many of us at the Nexus as well! But, that does not mean that all professionals are bad, just as eating bad food in a restaurant doesnt mean all cooks are bad.

So instead of giving the advice not to seek professional help, we should help the person in need see that there are professional people out there that can help. And that it is never too late to seek for those people."

also, from the wiki:

"Safe and constructive drug talk
This forum is not a place for superficial unsafe talk of drugs such as excessive use and dosages, unsafe combinations and settings and careless use of substances that naturally have a riskier profile without due disclaimers and clear signs of having learned from mistakes and offering insights for better usage. See this thread for more info: Policy regarding discussion of different drugs. Substances such as research chemicals have some added dangers that should be taken in account and explicitly recognized when talking about them in the forum, as this thread explains.
Also we do NOT give medical advice here (such as telling people not to see doctors and go to shamans for serious medical problems, etc), as this thread explains. Lastly, please read the Health and Safety section and the for contraindications, facts and tips on safety, reducing risks, dealing with difficult experiences, integrating the trips and maximizing benefits."


https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Attitude_Page

These are the rules of the forum, which you were all meant to read before becoming members, and which are to be respected, whether or not you agree with them.

And yes, given the nature of Eaglepath's previous post, i assumed by "plants" he/she meant psychoactive ones, though even if he/she didn't, it still qualifies as medical advice and as dissuading a person with a question about suicide from advising someone to seek professional help.

JBArk

EDIT: Kable, I see you are not a full member. A perfect time to familiarize yourself with the rules!

I read all those rules. However, I don't see where anyone has violated them. Nobody has told anybody not to see a medical professional. Nobody has told anyone to go to Peru, or take any amount of drugs. They have only shared experiences, or in my case shared objective research findings.

And for those of you favoring the censorship approach, suppose the guy could have taken DMT, could have taken ayahuasca, and could have had a transformative experience (which research suggests is anti-depressive and reduces the risk of suicide). But because you said all that was irresponsible, he killed himself. YOU'RE taking a mighty risk, and the odds don't look to be on your side.

Please delete my account today!

Be that as it may, those are the forum rules. Take it up with the mods if you think this should become a place where medical advice is doled out anonymously to anonymous people. But ask yourself, would that really be wise? A lot of thought has gone into making these rules and making this a safe place. While your point may be true, it is conjecture AND it is still the safest, and only responsible route to listen carefully and to advise professional help. If you think one can diagnose and prescribe treatment over the internet with no special training and based on a few words someone one doesn't know wrote - well, you need to seriously re-evaluate that position, with all due respect.

And again, you don't need to listen or heed my words - these are the forum rules.

It is your prerogative to disagree with them, but on this forum we insist you follow the rules set forth - or, if you choose, challenge them with the right members - mods or the administrator. You're new here, so I suggest you pay attention to how this place is run - it is unique on the internet, and there is a reason for that: it is well run and moderated and has a set of very responsible and useful rules that are enforced with caring hands and listening ears.

And I am not sure how you can say the rules have not been violated... take a look at Eaglepath's monkey vs plants post...

And his/her previous one describing using large doses of DMT to treat his/her own suicidal thoughts. The recommendations are implicit.

Respectfully,

JBArk

I am a Senior member but not empowered to do so, Eaglepath. You can delete your own account, if you so wish, but I hope you will stay and contribute your experiences. But you do need to follow the rules here, like it or not (or fight them with the mods or the admin if you feel strongly enough). Not following the rules is about the only thing that will make you a bad fit around here.

Cheers,

JBArk

A) I AM a medical professional, not a psychologist but I'm currently living with a research psychologist.

B) Whatever the rules are, I assure you I have not attempted to diagnose anything, nor have I given medical advice.

C) Given the state of mental health, it's your conjecture that sending someone to a professional is the safest thing to do. Unless by safest you only mean that in a CYA aspect. Apparently you are unaware of how many people see shrinks, and then kill themselves anyway.

D) Eaglepath's monkey comment I suppose was medical advice of sorts, but you've been indiscriminately shaking a stick at everyone who made a comment, who were clearly NOT diagnosing anything, NOR giving out medical advice.

E) There COULD be a really productive conversation here about how psychedelics can help or hurt as PART of an effective treatment program of depression and suicide. That discussion could include both anecdotal reports combined with what is becoming substantial research findings. That discussion COULD save lives, but you really don't want to let that happen. Sleep well.

Alright let's take a moment to talk about this discussion a bit.

First of all, notice that jbark was not blindly trying to censor discussion (neither is he a mod, as he said himself), but he was doing something we should be thankful for, which is to look after people here, wishing nobody gets hurt from irresponsible use of psychedelics.

Let's just imagine the following hypothetical situation: someone here recommends taking psychedelics for a suicidal person, who ends up killing themselves. That would be horrible, a loss of human life... But not only affect that person, let's say this forum is now put in the spotlight by the person's family who decides to blame us for recommending it. Maybe we end up getting shut down..

Moving on, Kable, even if you are a medical professional, obviously you understand this you would not be able to diagnose or properly advice a person simply from reading some posts on the internet, which is what jbark was advicing against. Please don't take it as personally challenging your knowledge but as someone who wants to help preventing lives being lost. Different people here have had loved ones kill themselves, it's a very traumatic event obviously, so it's not something to be lightly talked about (not saying you are but im trying to get you to not be confrontational about it which doesn't help the discussion)

This discussion can go on as long as silly jokes, medical recommendations and confrontational attitude is avoided. Feel free to discuss statistics, publications and anecdotal reports with due disclaimers and with proper reasoning behind posts.

Also, can you please point out where in the publication you first posted is saying that psychedelics diminished suicide rates by 30%, I couldn't find it.

Lastly, from ayahuasca being anti-depressant to dmt being anti-suicide is a very long jump.

If you read the methodology of the study claiming anti-depressant effect of ayahuasca, it was being done with people who were treatment-resistant in the first place, which is different than deciding to use it as a first option (specially without medical guidance). Also, they had accompanying from medical professionals before, during and after the experience, and those with severe depression at baseline could remain under care for several days. This is very different than a person simply taking at home by themselves as would possibly be the case of people the OP was talking about.

In any case from the data we have gathered so far it seems to me that psychedelics like ayahuasca could, given the right set and setting and accompanying before and after with integration, help as a part of the treatment of mental illness that may be behind potential suicide attempts. That being said, if I had to guess, I'd say that smoked DMT would probably not be as effective, or even be counterproductive, due to the lack of the pharmacological mechanisms that make ayahuasca unique in this sense (serotonin platelet transporter upregulation from THH, MAOI anti-depressant effect), as well as due to the abrupt nature of the experience which is harder to integrate with daily life IMO.

Thanks ender for once again being voice of reason.

First and foremost, if you are contemplating suicide call the lifeline right away. They can put you in contact with trained professionals that really can help.

If someone you know is contemplating suicide know how to respond and what resources are available.

There are anecdotes and research suggesting psychedelics (when administered under the care of a trained mental health professional) could be a useful tool in treating depression and suicidal ideation. There is also anecdotal evidence wherein use of psychedelics has precipitated depressive symptoms and suicidal thinking. It cannot be stressed enough that these things are merely tools. When employed by an experienced and skilled practitioner, they can be of great benefit, just as when employed without structure or experience they can have highly detrimental effects.

I have to admit to being curious what effect a strong ego dissolving dose of a psychedelic would have on someone in the midst of hopeless despair and suffering. There is really no single answer to this question, for some it will be a saving grace and for others it will be the final nail in the coffin, and for still yet others it will barely make an impression. This unpredictability is the big reason why people experiencing mental health issues should not work with psychedelics outside the care of professionals.

Ultimately it always comes back to harm reduction and education. Inform yourself, educate others, put those tripsitter skills to use by knowing how to be present, stay grounded, and respond swiftly and effectively in the event of a crisis.

Stay safe out there folques

♥

I think the problem with psychedelic treatments is that you don't need any kind of training or degree to be able to call yourself curandero, shaman or healer.
How can you tell that someone is a genuine healer and not some scammer?
And because of the obvious legal issues, i suppose that medic professionals willing to offer any kind of treatment that includes the administration of psychedelics, are hard to find.

So with this in mind, i think 'psychedelic therapy' is still a bigger gamble, than seeking the more conventional forms of proffesional help. In spite of the benefits that many psychedelic substances may have over conventional treatments.

It's like there is some new pill that is a promissing cure for a realy terrible disease and you managed to get some of these pills because a batch of them 'fell of a truck' somewhere.
So suppose you have this disease....would you just take these pills without knowing how much of them you should take and how often? And whether you should take them on an empty stomach or not? Or whether you should take them in the morning or in the evening? And without knowing if you can still eat anything you want when you take these pills?

Or would you rather go to a doctor?

All very good points that you made and you obviously have passion for the subject. Thanks for your points. I honestly think jbark was more responding to my post, perhaps they are familiar with me jumping the gun with emotional posts in the past that disregarded some harm reduction tenets. Perhaps they read it as a recommendation when it was anecdotal due to the apologetic way it was written. Jbark's response to my clarification post in response to theirs satisfactorily settled any misgivings i had about this discussion going the wrong way, and that it could continue with the considerations of content that j, endless. 042 etc have pointed out.

Let's do continuethis discussion in regards to the op, it is very relevant. As pointed out many of us in this community have intimate knowledge of the destruction of suicidality in our personal lives, families and communities. I myself am a survivor with two failedattempts and over a decade of passive suicidal lifestyle decisions. I am glad and lucky to be alive.

I used to think i had survived as long as i had because i was special. DMT absolved of that and i now know myself to be merely lucky.

Let's try to helpthose we know who suffer this deadly lie of believing life to not be worth living to move forward into their future, with love, empathy and understanding. And truth.

Let's talk...

I appreciate that he jbark has good intentions but he was curtailing discussion that could help suicidal people. Resulting deaths from censorship of helpful information are as real as any that that could be caused by a bad trip. I do very much appreciate where you are taking the conversation.


That's a fair point, so I think people should be careful not to tell others what to do. However, sharing experiences and discussing research isn't the same as telling someone what to do, and it certainly isn't the same as loading a vape and saying, "hit this." Obviously some people are going to take psychedelics and kill themselves, the same as some are going to do so after taking mood stabilizers or SSRIs. From a website CYA perspective, it might be good to say, "we don't allow such and such discussions here for such and such reasons. But to say "suicidal people should never take psychedelics" IS advice the same as saying "suicidal people should never take lithium."



Sorry, I thought I linked it,

https://www.researchgate..._States_adult_population

It wasn't suicide rates that went down >30% but past year suicide attempts.



I wouldn't describe it as a long jump at all. We both know DMT is a large component of ayahuasca, and suicide and depression are highly positively correlated. Decrease depression and you are probably decreasing the rates of suicide. Does DMT work as well as ayahuasca? Does ayahuasca work as well as DMT? Answer unknown, but well worth talking about.


I'm unaware of any research suggesting that what works for "treatment resistant" depression will not work for regular depression, or that regular depression and treatment resistant depression are qualitatively different at all. If anything "non-resistant" depression is likely milder and more likely to respond to placebo effects as both cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and drug treatments are having a VERY hard time showing themselves more effective than active placebo treatments. And both drug and CBT trials showing reporting effectiveness have been found to be substantially influenced by poor trial quality and publishers bias. And then you have to wonder if your local psychiatrist/psychologist is up on the research, or if he's still stuck using what he learned in school years ago, which was probably dated then. Not a lot has changed since Leary concluded with psychotherapy that 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse, and 1/3 stay the same.

To turn things more positive yet unrelated to drugs, this guy's (who I don't know) multifactorial treatment plan does seem legitimately evidence based and you can buy his book used for $4. His 6 components off the top of my head were:

1) Fish oil
2) Cardiovascular Exercise
3) Early morning sunlight (or bright light therapy, or more modern would be blue light therapy)
4) Social support
5) Adequate Sleep
6) DON'T RUMINATE!

He didn't talk about psychedelics but I expect they would help. I also expect that if you went to Peru and did an ayahuasca journey, even if you got a good dose much of the potential benefit would be lost if you went home to your single bedroom apartment, stayed up late watching TV, overate, and thought about your problems.




Such supervision is awesome to have, but most people do not have such access. However, reading that paper one looking to self treat with psychedelics might reasonably conclude it best to do so in the company of caring friends at least. Those caring friend might be wise to read the MAPS publications on how to best handle someone going through a bad trip.



You could be right. However, not everyone likes vomiting. Plus vaped DMT is of short enough duration you can do it more often. One person I know with a history of depression reported it didn't cure you, but it gave you a glimpse of what it was like to be cured and that hope was enough to get over the lethargy depression gives you preventing you from doing the 6 steps above. And nothing says a person has to go for a breakthrough either. In the experience of some, just 5 mg is enough to make the world seem better and lets you down so light that you aren't sure where it ends, "instant afterglow" was the quote.

My assumption would be that even the "genuine" shaman/healer is a phony. When Harner talked about the traditional shaman when he lived among the Jivaro's he described at length of how they pretended to suck evil spirits out of their patients while they were on ayahuasca. I think the plants themselves are the healers and the shaman are glorified trip sitters.



Exactly.



That's hard to say. If your psychologist recommends take time to yourself, because you're an introvert who needs to recharge, and then suggests you journal about your feelings, you are probably going to get worse rather than better. Psychology has so many different treatments that you just can't say with any confidence that "seeing a professional" will help. Compared to some professionally administered treatments I would honestly prefer a shaman pretend to suck out my evil spirits.



Going with your analogy, if I had reason to believe the pills would work and my doctor could not get them for me, I would go on the internet and ask people known to take them and ask, "What dose did you take?" How often did you take them? Did you take them on an empty stomach or full..." You get the idea, which is exactly what the OP was asking.

Somewhere along the line after aya became popularwith the new agers the therapeutic potential of many of these things became conflated with this sham practice.

The reason that spiritual medicine works w when it does is because of the cultural belief system that contains it. I'm not sure hire our rationalist secular society became so enamored with superstitious beliefs.

Let it be made clear that in any of my posts relating to it that i by no means am ever relating an experience with any paid practitioners.

I'll spend vast amounts of energy and time fighting the claims and practices of charlatans but I'd never give any of them a penny to control my well being.

As for the logic leap from aya helping depressionto DMT curing suicide is indeed huge and in my experience the two things may not even be co occurring. I'm not saying there isn't am intimate connection but saying that a depression treatment would work for suicidal ideation or for prevention of an attempt during an episode doesn't jibe with me.

My experience with 5meoDMT did indeed "cure" me of the potential to purposefully take my life but did not touch my depression. In fact the difficulties integrating and the stress involved with that and the new existential questions arguably made it worse.

It was an experience of actually dying and witnessing the vast thing of which i am an intrinsic part of that made me stop wanting to die.

Yeah, I agree the more you think it's going to work the better. There's a really fascinating review paper on placebo effects and cultural belief helps, but so does hearing the treatment is exotic. I have no doubt that ayahuasca pushes a number of the placebo buttons. But I think research is showing that the psychedelics are genuine effects of their own, either due to activation of certain receptors, increasing neurogenesis, or making you think about things in a different way.


True, if your friend is about to jump off a bridge (assuming you think he doesn't have good reason to) you should probably tackle him rather than talk about drugs, but the same can be said for any medication. However, that paper I cited earlier showed even a one time illicit (obviously non-clinical setting) use of psychedelics decreased suicidal ideation 16%. For what it's worth the same researchers did another study looking specifically at psilocybin and the effects were even greater.


I've never taken 5meo to know, and I'm not aware of any research looking at that drug in particular. But I would agree that an awakening isn't necessarily a depression cure. I think evidence is overwhelming that depression is a multifactorial problem, for which no single intervention will be sufficient. That's why I really liked Ilardi's multifactorial treatment approach. I think, among other things, psychedelics give you the rapid effect that gets you going until the more sustaining, and long term "curing" lifestyle changes have a chance to take effect.


Yeah, I hear DMT is really good for that! BTW, I googled up a great discussion on DMT and suicide. Very pertinent:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=19543

If someone is seeking healing from depression or suicidal thoughts, the first step is to ask for help. In doing so the healing can begin. A doctor, a shaman, a friend etc.. would not just automatically just start dispensing medications or psychedelics.

Some people just need an ear to listen. They need to vent maybe. Perhaps there is flaws in their thinking such as rumination. Perhaps mental illness. Perhaps it is just a bad day and simple as that. Professionals can point this out and sway someone towards cognitive behavioral therapy or perhaps group therapies or any number of treatment plans for the person. It isn't as simple as show up to the doctor and he gives a prescription. There are so many variables to depression. It is impossible to generalize anything when discussing this topic.

There will be people who hold passionate views on either side of this discussion. It is all to easy to not see it from another's point of view because of this. The blinders come on and then it is who is right and who is wrong. There is no right and wrong per say. There is a huge grey area. There is no way to approach this unless it is on a individual basis. The individual must get individual treatment that is specific to him/her. It cannot be generalized. It must be specific.
Specific to exactly that one person who has the issues of depression.

Sure.. psychedelics have helped some people. Sure.. medications have helped some people. Sure.. many things have helped many people. That is not specific. That is not looking directly at the person suffering from depression and just plain and simply listening to what is going on first, then coming up with a plan to help that person. A treatment plan. A treatment plan that is specific to that one person.

Medications are likely overly prescribed. Take this and all will be solved. The same could be said for psychedelics. Here.. take this and all will be well with the world. Magic pills and magic solutions. There are no magic pills. There are no magic solutions. If someone wants to heal from depression, the first step is asking for help. The second step is someone to listen. Someone to care enough not to offer magic, but offer real solutions, realistic approaches to healing.

It is not a black and white issue no matter how passionate the viewpoints are given. We all deserve love in this world. We all deserve to be happy. It is so hard to see others go through depression. I wish there was magic pills.

What is out there is people. People to listen and genuinely care about the healing of another. Yes.. there are many fakes and frauds out there, but I don't think that should discount all the others out there in the world who help in healing on either side of the aisle. This is a topic that should be handled carefully for good reason. There is no magic solution for depression, period. Is is not black and white. It is not psychedelics versus medication. It is not shaman versus doctor.

Citation?


Citation?


Citation?

Or is all that just your opinion?

Of course it is just my opinion!

Why the attitude? Why are you jabbing into this so hard? Did you go through something difficult in your life like depression or suicidal thoughts? I feel like you will likely argue anything here. You want to be right so everyone else has to be wrong. Do your thing. There are many ways to healing. I feel it is all about the individual. It has to be about the individual.

Yes, please stop trolling this thread, Kable. Your contributions are more than welcome if they aren't clearly to aggravate. Now let's get this tread back to the OP and his/her question.

JBArk

"No matter what I had read after I had that break through I truly believed I had died and I was in the afterlife and I was in Hell in particular. I knew you couldn't die from it but it was such a deep break through that all of that understanding that I can't OD went out the window. I was so blown away by the vividness of Hell."

I have had this feeling also - after DMT and also after Salvia. It persisted for days, and it was scary as hell not thinking I had returned to what reality I believed there was, or believing that it was a completely different reality plane and that my memories were mere digital transplants, or implants.

It eventually faded and became a valuable lesson, but it was so convincing at the time. Mix this derealization and depersonalization with suicidal thoughts, and I shudder at the possible outcome...

Suicidal people need grounding, in my opinion, though I do believe that once grounded, psychedelics can be potent tools to treat depression and anxiety in a clinical setting.

JBArk