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Veganism and Ethics Options
 
jamie
#81 Posted : 5/26/2018 4:04:05 AM

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I have tried most fad health diets by now. I have been vegetarian, vegan, raw vegan, fruitarian..added in fish..I have tried paleo, primal..auto immune paleo..

I have anklyosing spondylitis, ulcerative colitis, with peripheral neuropathy and fibro..and it's going away. Ankylosing spondylitis is not sopposed to go away. Im regaining more and more feeling in my toes. Im happier I look better I smile more.

Im on a meat only diet. I do eat some vegetables and coconut oil..but mostly I just eat meat drink water. Simple.

It sounds nuts but its working and at 34 I feel better many days than I did at 20. Its saving my . Ive had so many ppl tell me plant based diets will heal me. They all just made it worse.

I cant even find a Dr that will support my meat based keto diet, even though Im off all steroid meds, nsaids etc..and can walk normally again.

I could not find a vegan protein that works in place of meat. Rice protein is the best I can tolerate, but even still the disease does not go into proper remission unless I just eat eat and greens. Nuts, beans, legumes cripple me in days.

Its been enouugh for me that I know the data on keto is true. Personal experience trumps others opinions on whats good for you to eat.
 
 
jamie
#82 Posted : 5/26/2018 6:54:19 AM

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"I make exceptions for my fish oil that I consume every morning for my health and for family/friend events where veganism is not really possible or appropriate. I compare the family/friend exception to slavery: if all of your family and friends had slaves but you still wanted to interact with them, you would just have to deal with their slaves serving you when you visit their homes/parties. Also, if nonvegan food is going to waste anyway, we are willing to eat it as the animals have already died or been exploited, just as everyone in America reaps the economic benefits of being in one of the wealthiest countries (which resulted partly from slavery and other unethical measures)."


Are you saying that in your mind, your compare your friends and families decision to eat meat, with the keeping of slaves?

I have felt this way, and far worse in the past, as a vegan. I could never come here with a post that is going to change a persons mind. Noone changed mine. I beleived that eating meat was like murder at one point in my life. I no longer beleive unsupplemented veganism is a healthy route to any kind of diet, for my own reasons..and I will go on a limb here and say that I think it can be fairly harmful if not supplemented properly..and even then many ppl are going to have issues and need to eat animals. That fact alone, changes for me how I view the death of those animals, and the language I apply to the narrative. You might say that I lie to myself, to make death sound nicer or so that I can better cope with that reality. The reality for me is all things die, and death is all around. I don't have to like it, and in fact, I dont. I might be etheist, Im not really sure, but I have chosen to not be caught up in lifes details at ths time.

I also dont care to pathologize the world around me, or it's people. The only person I have heard properly articulate this for me, is Jordan Peterson when he said when we do this we create a kind of hell, and when enough of us do this, we bring everyone else with us.

I love humanity for it's idealism. I also think often it can become part of our own undoing.

There is a lot of stuff posted in this thread about nutrition that I used to believe, and reading it now tbh I feel a little uncomfortable about it. I don't mean to offend anyone here.

Take care and at least supplement all your vitamins. Noone is getting enough either way.
 
justB612
#83 Posted : 5/26/2018 11:43:46 AM
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Well to be hoenst one hand is not enough to count the positive lifestyle changes one can implement to help cardiovascular problems, so i am also skeptical of plant based diets doing the whole stuff alone Smile

To add something to your point Raptorrr is the thing i love about keto is it isn't really known. Jamie is a really nice example of what I mean.

When you see people go vegan it is usually their first choice, so they try to leave behind a chaotic lifestyle and go for a healthier one - it works - they think it is because of the vegetarian diet - they do not explore additional possibilities or options.


The thing about people on keto though, is they usually went through hell to get to a point where they research enough and learn enough to give such an extreme diet a shot.

In this regard, the main thumbs up is how many possibilities did we explore before judging ourselves happy and healthy?


For me personally, (nutritional ketosis, intermittent fasting, prolonged fasting, two or three types of meditation, wim hof/cold shock, heat shock, daily exercise, proper sleep, to name a few) I always explore as much possibilities towards hapiness as I can, and at the moment I feel like meat is a part of it.

I also admit that I still want to change a whole lot in my diet, but it takes time and money so only time will tell Smile
empathy might be on the brink of extinction
 
Raptorrr
#84 Posted : 5/26/2018 1:28:38 PM

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jamie wrote:
I have tried most fad health diets by now. I have been vegetarian, vegan, raw vegan, fruitarian..added in fish..I have tried paleo, primal..auto immune paleo..

I have anklyosing spondylitis, ulcerative colitis, with peripheral neuropathy and fibro..and it's going away. Ankylosing spondylitis is not sopposed to go away. Im regaining more and more feeling in my toes. Im happier I look better I smile more.

Im on a meat only diet. I do eat some vegetables and coconut oil..but mostly I just eat meat drink water. Simple.

It sounds nuts but its working and at 34 I feel better many days than I did at 20. Its saving my . Ive had so many ppl tell me plant based diets will heal me. They all just made it worse.

I cant even find a Dr that will support my meat based keto diet, even though Im off all steroid meds, nsaids etc..and can walk normally again.

I could not find a vegan protein that works in place of meat. Rice protein is the best I can tolerate, but even still the disease does not go into proper remission unless I just eat eat and greens. Nuts, beans, legumes cripple me in days.

Its been enouugh for me that I know the data on keto is true. Personal experience trumps others opinions on whats good for you to eat.


Feeling good is different from being healthy though. I haven't seen many people on all meat diets but it doesn't sound very healthy.

If all you're doing is restricting yourself to meat, you're restricting yourself on quite a lot of nutrients. I would suggest at least getting bloods taken to see if you're deficient in anything.

Shawn Baker (a former doctor) is on an all meat diet and his blood results are shocking. He has very high cholestrol, high blood urea nitrogen (the amount of waste protein in your urine which is hard on the kidneys and liver and can lead to kidney stones), very low testosterone, and quite suprisingly, very high blood sugar levels making him diabetic, despite eating no carbohydrates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxC_76sUIf8
Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed by the masses - Plato
 
jamie
#85 Posted : 5/26/2018 2:35:03 PM

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Did you miss the part where I had a life threatening disease? I assume feeling better in that case DOES equal greater health, with test results thats proved it.

Believe whatever you like. A simple google search will bring up countless studies for people to read. I wont post that stuff here, because it becomes an ego war of vegans vs w/e else etc posting studies. There are all sorts of garbage people can find in quick google to support whatever claim they want to make today. It took me over a decade of constatly failing health and obsessive reading and taking to Dr's I paid a lot of money to, to get to the conclusions I am at now. I am not about to argue the entire details of that with a bunch of vegans on the internet.

 
Raptorrr
#86 Posted : 5/26/2018 3:14:11 PM

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jamie wrote:
Did you miss the part where I had a life threatening disease? I assume feeling better in that case DOES equal greater health, with test results thats proved it.

Believe whatever you like. A simple google search will bring up countless studies for people to read. I wont post that stuff here, because it becomes an ego war of vegans vs w/e else etc posting studies. There are all sorts of garbage people can find in quick google to support whatever claim they want to make today. It took me over a decade of constatly failing health and obsessive reading and taking to Dr's I paid a lot of money to, to get to the conclusions I am at now. I am not about to argue the entire details of that with a bunch of vegans on the internet.


I didn't mean to annoy you or anything, and it's completely up to you what lifestyle changes you want to make. I do genuinely feel empathy for you and hope you get better, all I am saying is that you should still do check ups to see if there's anything you should be eating because feeling better is different from actually being better as I have said.
Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed by the masses - Plato
 
RAM
#87 Posted : 5/27/2018 7:34:30 PM

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jamie wrote:
"I make exceptions for my fish oil that I consume every morning for my health and for family/friend events where veganism is not really possible or appropriate. I compare the family/friend exception to slavery: if all of your family and friends had slaves but you still wanted to interact with them, you would just have to deal with their slaves serving you when you visit their homes/parties. Also, if nonvegan food is going to waste anyway, we are willing to eat it as the animals have already died or been exploited, just as everyone in America reaps the economic benefits of being in one of the wealthiest countries (which resulted partly from slavery and other unethical measures)."

Are you saying that in your mind, your compare your friends and families decision to eat meat, with the keeping of slaves?


I'm glad to see this thread is still going, as I and my housemates have kept up with our vegan diet that we started all due to this thread. As it has been over 7 months, we have had many conversations relating to this, and I at least have formed a slightly more nuanced view of the matter.

To answer your question, I do believe that eating animal products that come from factory/industrialized farming is morally akin to slavery or at least supporting an industry that uses slave labor. I am assuming here that most, if not all, of the animals farmed are conscious beings. If they were not conscious, they would not experience any feelings or sensations, as consciousness of some form is a precursor to sensation (unconscious things do not feel anything).

If we assume the cows in the slaughterhouse are conscious and feel pain, even if it is a different or "less complex" form of pain than humans feel, then supporting the industry that causes them this pain is morally akin to supporting businesses that use slave labor. However, let me rehash a point I made earlier in the thread:

I wrote:
Obviously we would not want to be the chickens, pigs, and cows in those crazy slaughterhouse videos online. If I had to be a cow - I am assuming here that we would always pick being human over being another animal, but since interspecies conversion is not possible (yet), we can only think of being one species at a time - I would be willing to be a Kobe beef cow.


As I said before, traditional Kobe beef cows are massaged, fed well, treated nicely, etc. My grandfather also ran a small farm for some years where he treated his chickens and ducks quite well before painlessly ending their lives and eating them. In both of these cases, I do not really see a moral problem with the eating of this meat. The same goes for eating eggs that one just finds in a field of free range chickens.

My point is that we can use our intuitive senses to get a pretty good idea of how much animals actually suffer during their lifetimes. It's pretty obvious, at least in my opinion, that these factory farms are horrible places to exist as an animal, and if we assume these animals are consciously experiencing those horrors, it is immoral to eat them and support the industry that perpetuates industrialized animal production.

Now, I have also experienced some health benefits from being 98% vegan for these 7 months. My skin is clearer, my hair seems a bit healthier, my bowels are much happier, I have experienced no loss of muscle mass, and I just feel cleaner and less groggy. I have also expanded my palate and been able to savor a multitude a new flavors - both good and bad.

But I try not to judge people who continue to eat dairy and meat, although I believe in 100-200 years this practice will be seen as barbaric. I do not want to be complicit in what I view to be an immoral system, but it is possible that others do not see a moral problem with factory farming (maybe they don't know about it or believe animals to be unconscious) or that they are consuming humanely-grown animal products. Whatever the case, this diet has produced net positive effects for me so far, but to be totally honest I am yearning for the day when I can eat a chicken shawarma sandwich with lab-grown chicken.
"Think for yourself and question authority." - Leary

"To step out of ideology - it hurts. It's a painful experience. You must force yourself to do it." - Žižek
 
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