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Yoga, chakras, and crystals: fact or fraud? Options
 
RAM
#1 Posted : 5/4/2018 5:18:33 AM

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Nearly every day for the past three years, I have practiced a type of Kunadlini yogic meditation before bed. My idea has been to refocus my chakras at the end of each day and hopefully encourage some kind of vaguely-defined cosmic energy snake to move up my spine, thus making me into a more enlightened/spiritual/connected being.

I have used various psychedelics with the intention of stimulating the Kundalini snake and have "felt" it on various occasions. Sometimes when I meditate on cannabis, my entire body will oscillate out of control as if energy is flying throughout my spine. My meditation style and knowledge about Kundalini energy are informed by taking Kundalini yoga classes for a few months some years ago and reading the book Kundalini Awakening by John Selby. But now I am beginning to have some doubts about all of this.

After stumbling upon various, absurd YouTube videos of people promoting the use of crystals for healing and rejuvenation and hearing them talk about chakras, I began wondering: are vague claims about yoga and chakra "energies" just the left's form of science denialism? When hippies on YouTube say you can heal a disease by holding a piece of quartz up to your temple, is that equivalent to ultra-conservatives saying climate change is a Chinese hoax?

I tried searching for scientific studies suggesting the existence of chakras but I could not find anything meaningful. I found various studies regarding general health benefits of meditation but nothing on imagining the power of the sun in your belly to stimulate snake-like sensations in your spine.

Am I missing something here? Are yogis and crystal-lovers claiming their practices are rooted in objective fact (it always sure seems like it), or is it really all just about inducing subjective experiences to test the limits of human perception? Could mainstream science be ignoring the true potential of these practices? Or is it all just phony mysticism and outdated religious traditions?
"Think for yourself and question authority." - Leary

"To step out of ideology - it hurts. It's a painful experience. You must force yourself to do it." - Žižek
 

Live plants. Sustainable, ethically sourced, native American owned.
 
Northerner
#2 Posted : 5/4/2018 9:59:45 AM

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I got into it for a while, but then it seemed I was deluding myself and I found other paths of belief.

If you believe a house brick can heal you, if you really really believe it... a house brick is sacred and will heal you.

It's not a fraud.
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
 
Fidelsbeard
#3 Posted : 5/4/2018 10:49:03 AM

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Christian Scientists refuse medical treatment for themselves and their children because of their belief in the power of prayer. Surely there is a limit to what self belief (albeit false) can achieve. It could not cure cancer every time, but then they would say you did not truly believe...
 
Eaglepath
#4 Posted : 5/4/2018 10:57:44 AM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..


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And after working with these plants for a while the beliefs shifts into a more "state of knowing". You believe in the church.. here we know!Smile Its just that this knowing is in someway very difficult to describe or explain.. its more like a hybrid of intuition based knowledge which is rooted in the univeristy of hyperspace, which fall out of the language making the brain fall into a state of vacuum and farts...Smile
"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
Doc Buxin
#5 Posted : 5/4/2018 8:48:40 PM

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RAM wrote:
...Are yogis and crystal-lovers claiming their practices are rooted in objective fact...?



I dispute the existence of any such thing called "objective fact".

Either something works for you, or it doesn't. If it makes you feel better, if it helps you be a more loving, kind, caring person, if it helps you sleep more soundly at night, if it helps you get closer to what your concept of "God" is, and does not hurt others nor their property, do what you will.


Much respect,

Doc
Freedom's so hard
When we are all bound by laws
Etched in the scheme of nature's own hand
Unseen by all those who fail
In their pursuit of fate
 
arcologist
#6 Posted : 5/5/2018 2:00:16 AM

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As a professional scientist well-versed in the laws of physics, I don't see a physical mechanism for any of that "hippie BS". It's no different than christian science denialism. Humans are really prone to inventing magical explanations for things they don't understand (e.g. placebo effect, in this case). It's important that we at least apply a feasibility analysis to any unusual hypothesis, "Is this plausible based on current understand of the laws of physics?", "Can you explain step by step how an inert crystal of SiO2 has a tangible effect on my body without invoking magic?". If not, it's probably BS until proven otherwise by rigorous scientific study.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

The same caution should be applied when it comes to things like the existence of DMT hyperspace/entities. In that case I've seen enough extraordinary evidence to convince a congregation, but until concrete (not experience-based) evidence is found I have to retain skepticism.
 
RAM
#7 Posted : 5/5/2018 6:55:39 PM

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Thanks for the thoughts everyone!

Northerner wrote:
It's not a fraud.


I see what you mean; the YouTube yogis and crystal people really seem to believe. It's not like my old yoga teacher got off work, went to the bar, and said, "I really got those suckers tonight!" Most of them are not intentionally duping people. Personally, however, once I realize something is not scientifically valid, I have a hard time authentically using it to better myself, as I am not able to get the "this is BS" thought out of my head (particularly if I am under the influence).

Doc Buxin wrote:
I dispute the existence of any such thing called "objective fact".

Either something works for you, or it doesn't.


Thanks Doc, I should clarify, I was not trying to start a conversation about objective fact necessarily, but I really meant "scientific" fact. My post was partially inspired by trying to reconcile how on the Nexus we post about scientific methods of extraction and psychedelic research but also about religious ideology as I see quite a lot of Hinduism-type content on here.

I'm trying to understand just how compatible these things are. I for one, and likely many other Nexians, doubt the authority and veracity of most organized religions, yet when we post about ancient Hindu texts, chakras, Buddhism, etc. I feel like we are being a bit contradictory.

But maybe religion and science are more compatible than I think, as they work to answer different questions. Maybe religion tries to answer subjective ethical questions while science tries to describe reality as it is. But we now have secular systems of morality, so why invoke religion and false gods when we don't need to?

Furthermore, I find it odd to be unhappy with the ills that Christianity and Islam bring to the world and then turn around and preach lessons from Vedanta, the Vedas, or other Hindu/Eastern sources.

arcologist wrote:
The same caution should be applied when it comes to things like the existence of DMT hyperspace/entities. In that case I've seen enough extraordinary evidence to convince a congregation, but until concrete (not experience-based) evidence is found I have to retain skepticism.


Totally agree! I think the trouble with proving the existence of hyperspace entities is that they exist solely within our own heads; someone watching us on DMT is not able to see nor test the existence of the entities. Furthermore, while they often appear as if they exist externally to our consciousnesses, what if that is just DMT affecting our brain in a way that makes us believe the entities exist independently, when in fact they are no more than figments of our imagination?

It seems that we will need to make great strides in cognitive science and being able to "look into" others' minds to be able to scientifically, rather than subjectively, evaluate these entity experiences.
"Think for yourself and question authority." - Leary

"To step out of ideology - it hurts. It's a painful experience. You must force yourself to do it." - Žižek
 
DmnStr8
#8 Posted : 5/5/2018 7:17:13 PM

Come what may


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Imagining meridian points in the body and energizing these points requires imagination. Imagining certain colors around certain points of the body, imagining these balls of light rotating and connecting to eachother is imagination. Shamanic journey is imagination. Is this a placebo or something truly there?

I think that paying attention to certain parts of the body and what they represent is a very good thing. Paying attention to how your body feels and associating chakras is not a bad thing. If you are not feeling grounded and chant RAM, focus on the first chakra while imaging a red ball of light growing in power creates a feeling of being more grounded then I would say go for it. If it does nothing for you, I feel the imagination needs to be engaged more. Imagination is paramount to this process. If you don't believe in what you are doing, then it will yield lackluster results.

Albert Einstein said that imagination is everything. I tend to agree with that statement. It's very important. I feel that we can heal with the mind. I feel we can connect with our bodies and the planet with imagination. We just have to take a step back from logic and allow the mystical to take form in our imagination.

I don't know about you, but I love magic trick. I only enjoy them when my logic is not trying to figure it out. Allowing the child in me to be mesmerized, and just for a bit believe that what I am seeing is magic. It's ok to use the imagination and allow magic to take us into wonder.

If something empowers you and harms no one, I see no problem in it. If a crystal make you feel better, great. If imaginaing chakras balances you, great. If yoga make you feel good, great. If it does not, that does not take away from the positive experiences others make take from it. It's highly personal and not something science can measure. Logic and left brain should be left at the door when engaing with practices that require imagination. It's not a fraud until the mind labels it as such. As soon as this happens, the magic stops.
"In the universe there is an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans call intent, and absolutely everything that exists in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link." ~Carlos Castaneda
 
ghrue84
#9 Posted : 5/6/2018 2:36:13 AM

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arcologist wrote:
As a professional scientist well-versed in the laws of physics, I don't see a physical mechanism for any of that "hippie BS". It's no different than christian science denialism. Humans are really prone to inventing magical explanations for things they don't understand (e.g. placebo effect, in this case). It's important that we at least apply a feasibility analysis to any unusual hypothesis, "Is this plausible based on current understand of the laws of physics?", "Can you explain step by step how an inert crystal of SiO2 has a tangible effect on my body without invoking magic?". If not, it's probably BS until proven otherwise by rigorous scientific study.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

The same caution should be applied when it comes to things like the existence of DMT hyperspace/entities. In that case I've seen enough extraordinary evidence to convince a congregation, but until concrete (not experience-based) evidence is found I have to retain skepticism.


What isn't experience-based? Life is an experience. Every single thing in life is experience based. We are all having different experiences that form us every single day. Your painful experiences usually shape you, they also help you become a better person if you decide to transmute the energy of that painful experience into something positive. How can you invalidate experience when it's more real than any language or science? Experiences are always happening for everybody whether science or language decide to express it or study it. Whether you can put them into words or explain them with an experiment or not, they continue happening.

How can you "know" what is a fraud and what isn't a fraud before you try it and give it a true shot. If you never believe in something in the first place, you never gave it a chance of happening. How can you have these mystical experiences with psychedelic plant teachers and still think science is the end all be all of explaining life? Science that was once thought of as law is sometimes proven to be either unreliable or false.

People overrate science and underrate the power of how thoughts can shape your life. The power of creating your own world with your own thoughts and the language you use. "Reality" can and will most likely be shaped by your thoughts and spoken words. Thoughts of love and magic will bring both to fruition. Thoughts of hatred and skepticism will bring both to fruition. "Reality" is what you decide it to be, whether consciously or unconsciously.
 
DmtProphecy
#10 Posted : 5/6/2018 6:34:58 AM

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At one point I tried to raise my kundalini. I did have mental abilities that I didn't have prior to working on this. I have no doubt that doing this causes some change in ones brain but exactly what this is, I don't know.

I stopped working on my kundalini when I became a Gnostic. At the time I thought that the kundalini could be demiurgic. The reason I thought this was because people who have had kundalini awakenings were saying things that didn't add up... As if they had became deluded. The entities they were getting their information were telling them contradictory things and things that aren't true.

I'm not that kind of gnostic anymore and I really don't know what the kundalini thing really does but up to now I still wonder.

I don't think directing energy with crystals does anything. This notion would make more sense if we were not in these dense bodies. It's sort of contradictory.

I don't think it's a good thing for people to believe things as been said by a few people though. It might give them comfort but at what price? Belief has sabotaged the evolution of humanity far too long, not to mention all the suffering it has wrought.
 
Eaglepath
#11 Posted : 5/6/2018 7:30:11 AM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..


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ghrue84 wrote:
arcologist wrote:
As a professional scientist well-versed in the laws of physics, I don't see a physical mechanism for any of that "hippie BS". It's no different than christian science denialism. Humans are really prone to inventing magical explanations for things they don't understand (e.g. placebo effect, in this case). It's important that we at least apply a feasibility analysis to any unusual hypothesis, "Is this plausible based on current understand of the laws of physics?", "Can you explain step by step how an inert crystal of SiO2 has a tangible effect on my body without invoking magic?". If not, it's probably BS until proven otherwise by rigorous scientific study.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

The same caution should be applied when it comes to things like the existence of DMT hyperspace/entities. In that case I've seen enough extraordinary evidence to convince a congregation, but until concrete (not experience-based) evidence is found I have to retain skepticism.


What isn't experience-based? Life is an experience. Every single thing in life is experience based. We are all having different experiences that form us every single day. Your painful experiences usually shape you, they also help you become a better person if you decide to transmute the energy of that painful experience into something positive. How can you invalidate experience when it's more real than any language or science? Experiences are always happening for everybody whether science or language decide to express it or study it. Whether you can put them into words or explain them with an experiment or not, they continue happening.

How can you "know" what is a fraud and what isn't a fraud before you try it and give it a true shot. If you never believe in something in the first place, you never gave it a chance of happening. How can you have these mystical experiences with psychedelic plant teachers and still think science is the end all be all of explaining life? Science that was once thought of as law is sometimes proven to be either unreliable or false.

People overrate science and underrate the power of how thoughts can shape your life. The power of creating your own world with your own thoughts and the language you use. "Reality" can and will most likely be shaped by your thoughts and spoken words. Thoughts of love and magic will bring both to fruition. Thoughts of hatred and skepticism will bring both to fruition. "Reality" is what you decide it to be, whether consciously or unconsciously.



Wise words...Smile
"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
Jees
#12 Posted : 5/6/2018 8:01:18 AM

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The crystals cult... they are not the only ornaments with an extra functionality. For example that picture with you beloved, it's actually some paper and ink in some wood frame.

Connotations to objects is not new, and can come in handy.
How about this: defining it as a memory shortcut to certain states of being, to have a recall trigger of sorts. One could question the shortcut how it looks and it will fail to show measurable powers, it's just matter, but it's a mind state shortcut memory trick also. All innocent in itself until people start to believe that the power lies in the matter literally. Hence all the fuzz.
 
universecannon
#13 Posted : 5/6/2018 2:19:55 PM



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Try yoga on high doses

There's no need to believe in anything regardless of experiences



<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
Psilosopher?
#14 Posted : 5/6/2018 3:04:39 PM

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I come from the culture that spawned yoga. It has been almost completely misinterpreted by the West, and even by many Indus Valley denizens.

Yoga has many different aspects. Hatha, raja, bhakti. They all play a part in enriching one's life, through healthy actions and healthy thoughts. These days, mainstream yoga has become attractive and slightly air-headed women taking photos of themselves while wearing yoga pants (what even are those?), and only knowing the one asana (i.e. downward facing dog). The sexualisation of this very ancient practice completely goes against one of it's main precepts, "Brahmacārya". This is one side effect of cultural misappropriation, original meaning and intent is lost. However, there are many yoga practitioners that are actually interested and devoted to yoga. Which is great. But, when people pass down misinformation (which they may well have thought to be accurate information), the misinformation becomes the norm. Just look at how many people know the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter.

As for chakras, they are energy pockets. So, if one were to closely examine each of the 7 chakra's (Root, Sacral, Solar Plexus, Heart, Throat, Third Eye (Forehead) and Crown), it's quite easy to see how each of these aspects are very important. And when i say important, i mean medically, not spiritually. Each of these chakra points (energy wells, energy pockets, whatever) are quite important for bodily functions. Your stomach would use up more energy than your left pinky toe. Hence, it is an energy pocket. So, ancient people decided to apply significance to various parts of the body. They didn't have formal and modern medical knowledge, so describing physiology using spirituality makes sense.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
 
Eaglepath
#15 Posted : 5/6/2018 3:51:00 PM

I rather root my values in my own hallucinations than in society´s neurotic illusions..


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Psilosopher? wrote:
I come from the culture that spawned yoga. It has been almost completely misinterpreted by the West, and even by many Indus Valley denizens.

Yoga has many different aspects. Hatha, raja, bhakti. They all play a part in enriching one's life, through healthy actions and healthy thoughts. These days, mainstream yoga has become attractive and slightly air-headed women taking photos of themselves while wearing yoga pants (what even are those?), and only knowing the one asana (i.e. downward facing dog). The sexualisation of this very ancient practice completely goes against one of it's main precepts, "Brahmacārya". This is one side effect of cultural misappropriation, original meaning and intent is lost. However, there are many yoga practitioners that are actually interested and devoted to yoga. Which is great. But, when people pass down misinformation (which they may well have thought to be accurate information), the misinformation becomes the norm. Just look at how many people know the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter.

As for chakras, they are energy pockets. So, if one were to closely examine each of the 7 chakra's (Root, Sacral, Solar Plexus, Heart, Throat, Third Eye (Forehead) and Crown), it's quite easy to see how each of these aspects are very important. And when i say important, i mean medically, not spiritually. Each of these chakra points (energy wells, energy pockets, whatever) are quite important for bodily functions. Your stomach would use up more energy than your left pinky toe. Hence, it is an energy pocket. So, ancient people decided to apply significance to various parts of the body. They didn't have formal and modern medical knowledge, so describing physiology using spirituality makes sense.


Very well written! This makes a lot of sense and these practises should be viewed accordingly.

I questioned my yoga teacher and ask why they served tea after every class where people stood in a circle and talked like in a cafe before they walked out to their lives again. In my sense all the beautiful focus you manage to produce with an class of yoga disappear the same second you open up your mouth and start babbling about the weather, news and so on, and the class was for nothing.. except some good stretching for the muscles..

His view of this was that they would be out of business if not the tea hahaha.. but he strongly agreed!
"Too cute to live, too cozy to die" - Eaglepath
 
woogyboogy
#16 Posted : 5/7/2018 9:25:39 PM

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A view that works for me in terms of utility...

To me chakras, and the like are akin to a map of different “fields” of experience one can tap into internally via shifting the awareness.

If one has practiced a certain amount of meditation, one will notice that your general experience of the world (mood, sharpness of vision,...) can be influenced by how we hold our attention in every moment (drift into thoughts, be present with physical awarenes,rest relaxed in being,...). When we use these “skills” while journeying the influence of where we locate our awareness becomes much deeper and more profound. ImO, when we focus our attention on certain parts of the body, while a tryptamine or similar is plugged into our serotonergic receptors, we get a glimpse of how deep, complex and alive our internal world and beingness(space of experience) really is in every given moment.

I dont really journey any more(besides some certain occasions) unless I have internally aligned myself properly beforehand.
While this is a more cautious approach, that I havent always followed, as of now, it helps me to be sharper with my senses, integrate quicker, and stay more grounded during the experience. This makes the whole thing tremendously less chaotic, and in turn more approachable and meaningful to me.

 
antares
#17 Posted : 5/8/2018 6:49:17 AM

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You have to remember that the concept of chakras, energy flow etc is an esoteric one. To actually think of it as a physical location in one's body is completely wrong. It is a way of focussing your mind in a certain direction during an advanced meditation practice in order to explore specific areas of one's consciousness.

The association of colours and crystals and physical and emotional characteristics with the chakra concept is a western one which started in California when yoga and Hindu philosophy was adopted by the hippy community and modified to suit existing beliefs and tastes. I believe the original Sanskrit texts do not make any reference to colours or crystals. They are also less specific about what characteristics are associated with each chakra. Most eastern religions are much more flexible than Christianity or Islam and allow followers to incorporate their own beliefs in their practice.

The purpose of yoga was for ascetics to strengthen body and mind so that they could still still in meditation and explore consciousness. If you think it isn't necessary, I would suggest sitting absolutely still on the floor for 10min and seeing if you can ignore your body. Remember these yogis meditate for days at a time or sometimes even longer.

Western philosophy is heavily influenced by the Abrahamic religions. There is an acceptance even among scientists that life and consciousness are limited to the individual and that when it ends it is extinguished to nothing. In contrast, eastern religions believe that life and consiciousness are omnipresent and interconnected with everyone and everything else. We are temporary holding vessels - like bubbles of air floating in air. When the bubble bursts, we just rejoin consciousness.

I think the concept of chakras and energy flow should be interpreted in the right context. Think of it as a flow of life force within you rather than a physical energy like light or heat etc etc. By directing that life force within oneself to areas where it is deficient, we can " balance ourselves" and become better and healthier individuals

The chakra visualisation doesn't control the physical body directly IMHO. By visualising certain areas of the body, you activate areas of the brain that are involved with controlling this part of the body. This allows you to train your brain and bring under your control a lot of functions that are normally autonomic. This has been well demonstrated with some yogis able to change their heart rate, blood pressure and temperature at will. The concept of the brain controlling everything was unknown in ancient times.

In answer to the original question, I would suggest looking beyond commonly held interpretations and look at origins of the practice. It will make a lot of sense.
 
RAM
#18 Posted : 5/8/2018 8:16:08 AM

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DmnStr8 wrote:
Albert Einstein said that imagination is everything. I tend to agree with that statement. It's very important. I feel that we can heal with the mind. I feel we can connect with our bodies and the planet with imagination. We just have to take a step back from logic and allow the mystical to take form in our imagination.

I don't know about you, but I love magic trick. I only enjoy them when my logic is not trying to figure it out. Allowing the child in me to be mesmerized, and just for a bit believe that what I am seeing is magic. It's ok to use the imagination and allow magic to take us into wonder.


I have been thinking about this a lot, and I have come to the personal conclusion that emotions like awe and wonder are totally compatible with science. I am not convinced that religious and magical explanations are necessary in order to gain the benefits that religious/spiritual-type systems purport to give.

Also, if we can heal our physical bodies with our minds, then there is something biological going on, meaning that it can be shown with science. There is some kind of change that could be observed under a microscope, or if it is emotional/mental, in a psychiatrist's office.

DmnStr8 wrote:
Logic and left brain should be left at the door when engaing with practices that require imagination.


What is left if not logic? Something that is not logical. Should we trust things that are not logical? Furthermore, isn't imagination a logical function of the human mind? It is something that is real and tangible; why not use science to better our capacity for imagination?

ghrue84 wrote:
Science that was once thought of as law is sometimes proven to be either unreliable or false.


This is a natural part of the scientific method; science involves constant peer review, new hypothesis, testing old results, etc. The body of scientific and rational knowledge only grows stronger over time. But you could make your same claim about religion; religions once thought of as law have pretty much all been abandoned (think of Greek and Roman gods, African tribal mysticism, etc.).

It seems that testable science only increases in veracity over time and that it has an inverse relationship with religious and mystical practices. The more we can explain with science, the less we need to rely on magical explanations for occurrences.

ghrue84 wrote:
People overrate science and underrate the power of how thoughts can shape your life. The power of creating your own world with your own thoughts and the language you use. "Reality" can and will most likely be shaped by your thoughts and spoken words. Thoughts of love and magic will bring both to fruition. Thoughts of hatred and skepticism will bring both to fruition. "Reality" is what you decide it to be, whether consciously or unconsciously.


Isn't what you are talking about something that could be proven with the use of science? I feel like analyzing the process by which thoughts become reality is something that is testable and falsifiable, making it scientific. I do not think it takes any amount of mysticism to see or explain how focusing on something, like having more love in one's life, can lead that person to work to add more love into their life.

Jees wrote:
How about this: defining it as a memory shortcut to certain states of being


universecannon wrote:
There's no need to believe in anything regardless of experiences


Psilosopher? wrote:
So, if one were to closely examine each of the 7 chakra's (Root, Sacral, Solar Plexus, Heart, Throat, Third Eye (Forehead) and Crown), it's quite easy to see how each of these aspects are very important. And when i say important, i mean medically, not spiritually.


antares wrote:
It is a way of focussing your mind in a certain direction during an advanced meditation practice in order to explore specific areas of one's consciousness.


All very interesting points, thank you! Many of your points have made me think more about the origins of yogic practices and different framing mechanisms for chakra-focused meditation. However, like Psilosopher said and universecannon implied (I think), I believe it is important to remember that ancient descriptions of these systems are tremendously outdated.

I am not trying to straight up deny the existence of mechanisms akin to chakras; I have felt them many times while meditating, particularly under the influence. But I doubt with near certainty that what is going on are ancient spirits or energies entering my body. It is probably just a physical response arising from a chemical altering my brain in a certain way. It could be studied, and is being studied, just like any other natural phenomenon.

My point is really that I am starting to believe we need to cast away old, magical, religious, spiritual, and mystical traditions to focus on a rational, logical, and secular exploration of what it means to be human and experience the world.
"Think for yourself and question authority." - Leary

"To step out of ideology - it hurts. It's a painful experience. You must force yourself to do it." - Žižek
 
antares
#19 Posted : 5/8/2018 9:54:27 AM

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Different cultures interpret the same phenomena differently. What to you and me is a chemical change in the central nervous system might to someone else be a life changing religious experience. Exactly the same thing from a different view point. Yet both sides think they are right and the other is wrong.

At present, we worship at the altar of science as it is the closest thing we have to the truth. Before the concept of science was developed, religion reigned supreme and all these phenomena were interpreted in a religious context. Who knows what will come along and sweep science away in future.

Science in its present form will struggle to interpret some of these phenomena as we have a very limited understanding of what life and consciousness actually are and we are only prepared to accept explanations that fit in with our already very limited understanding. Bit of a chicken and egg situation.

Perhaps in the distant future there will be nexians posting on why we should be discarding scientific interpretations because they don't stand up to scrutiny and follow whatever is then the accepted norm.

From the user point of view, as you mentioned, these concepts are not entirely bullshit. There is an effect/ response to the practice and this has been observed and experienced for thousands of years. I don't accept the explanations offered for these effects but centuries of experience have refined the application of these concepts. And that is something I am happy to use as a means to an end.
 
Exitwound
#20 Posted : 5/8/2018 12:08:28 PM

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There are many different and interesting opinions already stated in this thread, to which I'd like to add mine.

I agree that what we live in a world where it is very hard to tell what's true or false, what's good for you or what's bad. In the ultimate end it all comes down to you, what you chose to believe and bear the consequences of your beliefs choices.

But what everybody should consider, that scientific method is the best tool we ever had and have right now to learn about life and universe. Other tools like religious, spiritual or mystical practices, fail to produce reliable/repeatable results. Though I can not say that they don't produce results at all. Placebo effect is scientifically proven to be a very powerful healing tool if used correctly, though mechanisms behind it are yet to be understood and researched.

I am a big sceptic when it comes to believing in anything non-scientific. I think that many yet unexplained phenomena (like a DMT trip/Hyperspace), will be explained at some point in the future. After all it's just like it had always been: what seemed to be an act of gods or other "higher" powers, turned out to be phenomena, which school kids can explain today (f.ex. solar eclipse or diseases).

We just need more time and bigger scale of civilization (to have more energy and computing power) to learn more secrets of our beautiful universe. Washing hands in hospitals wasn't practiced like up to until of 150-200 years ago (which is not even 1 second ago by universe timescale), but today we all know about bacteria. Overall civilization progress is moving very fast and accelerates so far, thanks to scientific method.

Anyways sorry for the long post, which isn't directly answering OPs question.

As a bonus here is an interesting experiment which is proposed to be held: https://futurism.com/sci...d-to-the-physical-world/
 
 
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