A1pha, (cute username)

You are right, things are a little different in Australia. American culture comes across to us as a MUCH more ego driven culture.

Australian people tend to want to fly under the radar, they have a thing called the tall poppy syndrome, where people will punish you if you try and stand up above the crowd or appear to get too big for your boots. I've always pissed off people in Australia because I am a very deliberate tall poppy.

But I would say I'm driven by far deeper forces than being merely ego driven. I already experience a fair amount of fame and find it to be pretty shallow stuff, and I'm not much interested in this kind of attention believe it or not, as its not real love.

What happened all those years ago now in regards to changa, is just a matter of history. To me, it's just a fact that there was a kind of revolution started with me and that I made it happen. And you know what, I'm really happy about that. What other people think, good or bad, I actually feel quite divorced from that these days.

For sure, I don't go around ramming it in everyone's face, that I am the inventor of changa or hang a fragile self esteem on a pithy title or label. I'm not that lame And I actually have fairly stoic views on fame and fortune.

That being said, I will set the record straight here. Obviously it needs to be done and nobody else is going to do it.

I am an innovator, a pioneer and explorer. I would hope that at the end of my life, that inventing changa is one thing in a fairly decent list of things that I have pioneered.

I'm Sparticus ....

I have to further clarify my original question:
What exactly do you understand under Changa, that you claim you invented?

As has been said before, we have written proof from ER, that putting DMT with a MAOI on a herb has been used surely already in the 90s (and very likely already before).
To me, that's about the definition of Changa.
Adding additional stuff for synergy or taste has been done since ages for smoking material, so certainly also with the base combination of DMT+MAOI.
That's why I'm seriously interested in your definition of Changa as basis for your claim to have invented it.

About the naming:
Well here it could be, that you were the name giver, although this claim is certainly very hard to proof.
But I personally don't care at all how it's called. If you name water "water" or "agua" or "Wasser" or "eau", it all means the same...


But in this relation I think it is interesting that someone said that there was already something named Changa in the Zapotec culture. Has anybody any link to anything to substantiate this?

Yeah, everyone's said pretty much what there's to be said.

As far as beta-carbolines and dmt being used together for smoking, it definitely points strongly in the direction of - 'already been done ages ago' from all the evidence others posted, it's pretty clear tbh.

So, you invented 'the name' changa? Okay I'll buy that you invented the 'name itself', but as far as inventing beta carbolines and dmt to be smoked ..sorry bud, you did not.

Google Changa and you’ll come up with various definitions, most will define changa as being a smoking blend containing different herbs, containing an MAOI, usually Ayahuasca into which DMT is infused.

I don’t define Changa as simply smoking DMT with an MAO and neither can I find that definition on any web site. I don’t deny that people would have been experimenting with that, and I want to underline the word experimenting with smoking MAOI’s and DMT.

I don’t know guys, either many of you are being very stupid or just obstinate. I suspect its more just the later, when you say that Gracie and Zarkov or the Entheogen Review reports represent the invention of changa.

These experimental reports, as well as DMT Turners report only show the smoking of MAOI’s before smoking DMT. Smoking an MAOI before smoking DMT doth not changa make!

The entheogen review report uses a Syrian Rue extract into mint with a phalaris extract. There is no blend of herbs and the predominant alkaloid from the phalaris extract is 5-MeO-DMT!

“The variety of Phalaris used in this experiment contained mostly 5-MeO-DMT, which is an extremely intense trip when smoked by itself. With the addition of the MAO-inhibiting harmala extract, the experience seems to be somewhat longer and considerably smoother, with what can best be described as a "full body orgasm" as its predominant sensation.”

There are a few heresay reports of people saying they smoked DMT with an MAOI in the 90’s (most of which originate in this thread it appears!) and that may well be the case, I don’t know. BUT, if that was the case, then you would have thought it would have broken through or got some sort of publicity or some solid record or culture developed from it, which appears not to be the case.

When Trout came to Australia in 2006, he was introduced to smoking DMT infused onto Caapi leaves.

You can see Dorge’s post about that here on the shaman-australis forums in 2006. (I used to know him as Tikal on the ayahuasca forums) I am posting here as “folias”

http://www.shaman-austra...php?/topic/10400-changa/

This is Trouts except from an email from the post on shaman australis forums.

"One of the most amazing things I encountered while in Oz was people taking dried caapi leaf and making it into a 30-50% smoking blend with Acacia resin (using alcohol or something to get it to stick to the leaf) The results were somewhere in between smoked acacia and oral ayahuasca in effects and duration. Much more clear than oral ayahuasca athough."

Ok, there you have it, this was all new to Trout and Trout is one of the people who has his head to the ground more than anyone else in the world in these matters at that time and maybe even still.

The point is, the phenomenon of Changa began from me and my actions at this time around 2004, and my concerted efforts, something I keep reiterating. I showed it to people around 2005 who made a concerted effort to show this to significant people all over the world, I myself intensified these efforts in 2006. I showed a guy how to make it who ended up distributing changa in Boom in 2006, the same guy I mention in that thread who put brugmansia flowers in changa. This would have been about the 1st time Changa appeared significantly outside of Australia. Then I showed another guy how to make it who took it to Brazil in 2006.

The whole story will appear in the light of day one day and I can tell you its a long story with many facets.

Quote:
The earliest evidence for the use of psychoactive plants in South America is provided by the materials found at the sites of Inca Cueva, and Huachichocana, both located in the Puna de Jujuy, NW Argentina, at an altitude of 3860 mts. above sea level. Inca Cueva is a small cave with no stratification and no associated human remains. The archaeological materials were deposited on top of a straw floor in the rear of the cave. Two smoking pipes made of Feline (Felis Concolor) bone were found in association with knotted bags, gourds, spiral baskets, and Anadenanthera and Prosopis seeds. Preliminary chemical analysis of the pipe material indicated the presence of dimethyltryptamine. Radiocarbon testing yielded a date of 2130 B.C. This is one of the earliest dates related to psychoactive plant use in South America.

that's very interesting about the 4000 year old dmt pipe.
they definatly didn't call the seeds CHANG AH though !

I wondered where I left my pipe?

do you think if I ask the museum nicely ,
that they might give it back.? LOL
honestly though,
I never could find another pipe that worked as good as that one.



do you think if I put in an official request that the museum would give it back.?

Haha, maybe you could trade the guard for a moment alone with the "psychoactive snuffs and smokes" display?

And yes, I agree, there's no indication that the 4000 year old Argentinians were calling it changa. But it's certainly fascinating (if unsurprising) to have the insight that even millenia ago, the notion that you could smoke DMT was clearly present and that some folks had their own little stash that included betacarbolines, DMT, and their trusty cougar-bone pipe.

Who knows how old this concept is? It could well be older than 4000 years, and we're simply lacking the evidence, but it does indicate that we're all part of psychonautical traditions that stretch back well before ourselves and our ancestors.

chocobeastie wrote;

lol

which forces are these?

there's a few symptoms here, potentially, on analysis..
but ok you just want to be loved, i get that..
everyone does..

Yes i can SEE clearly now,
i can seem to remember being there,
you were there snozz,
so was choco,
and Nen,
pink floyd was there,the OZZY boys know who im talking about.
ott was there and so was terrence and dennis
i was wondering why we left the pipe there.?
then i rembered thinking ,
gee, the dimi is lasting a bit longer than usual,
then i noticed clear sighns of hypoxia creeping in at 3800mtrs above see level,
ans checked our supplies,
and noticed that we were getting desperately low ,
on coca leaf and tequela,
so we left the pipe and everything els,
and started down the mountain,
in desperate need of cocaina,!

and when we got to the jungle floor we were attacked,
by a large caapi chewing jaguar who was looking for his lost mate,
that we made the pipe out of.
and i was mauled but survived only to be killed by angry natives
brandishing frog venim blowpipes!
i dont remember wat happened to the rest of you!
i was too busy chocking on frog venim.

a number of prominent Australians assert that a similar blend existed before it was picked up and named changa..this has nothing to do with me, but is what chocobeastie's main detractors say..and the concept of harmalas modulating dmt via smoking was published as long ago as 1985,it's variance of the same concept is being argued here..harmala simultaneously with dmt was done in Aus and elsewhere before..the ER 'changa' was an alkaloid mix, not just 5meo..if i have time to go through ER i am sure I'll find a few more reports..marketing and naming seems to be the main development here..in the entheogenic world people build on others ideas.. to claim invention is a very difficult thing..and all other input is dismissed as flawed somehow..what others have asked here seems to be very relevant: why is it so important to you?
here there be dragons..

I honestly think it would be a good idea if we just stopped all this bickering and became friends,
we all obviously have a great deal to contribute to the entheogenic community at large,!

why cant we all just get together in australia in december and drink some vine together and bury the hatchet?
like the real human beings that we all are!

peaceout

OM MANI PADME HUM

I was not interested how others define Changa. I'm interested how you define Changa. You define it also like above?



Factually, simply not correct!

Again the part from ER:


This is obviously a blend all in one on a herb. All smoked together!

The funny thing is you contradict yourself just afterwards:



That is IMHO simply just a hilarious desperate argument to uphold your claim!

Are you serious??? Come on...I think you will have to laugh about this statement yourself, when you have an objective look at it.
There are so many different Arundinaceas, some have mainly DMT, some 5-MeO-DMT, some both, some none, etc.
And it honestly surely doesn't matter at all.

Or do you claim that just using DMT instead of 5-MeO-DMT in such a blend is your innovative invention?

I'm really a bit puzzled here. What exactly do you agree has been invented before, and what exactly do you claim you invented additionally?

It actually still would even match the definition you gave above for Changa. For in this definition there's nowhere indicated, that DMT has to be the main tryptamine alkaloid by effect. Just that it contains DMT.

It seems to me you change details of your claims on and on as it suits you, which makes the whole discussion quite futile.
That's why I asked for your proper definition of Changa, to be sure we have a non changing solid base about what we actually do discuss here. It's of no avail if this definiton changes all the time or if people here all understand something different under the name "Changa".

If you wanna define Changa in a way, so that these ER reports don't get included, then that's fine. But I think most people then wouldn't define it like that.

Just to be clear.
I personally surely can believe that you didn't know this before and reinvented it. But that doesn't make you the inventor, when it has already been invented long before by other people.

The very same comment came into my head when reading this thread...

I believe you chocobeastie, even if the rest of them don't.

Hug46,

Thanks! I suppose there are lot of people who are reading this who are bit surprised at the level of snarkiness and unpleasantness being communicated here. I think its also easy to see through where the group think and politik is coming from.

Nen888,

Regarding motivation, I'm presently editing an article about that! I reference stoic philosphers a fair bit in there!



Will you please give me the names of these people so I can talk to them about this? I would be interested to see if these claims actually bear up to scrutiny. I find this interesting and I have only heard this from you btw.

I certainly never “picked up” any similar blend from anyone else.



As I have clearly communicated in my article about the origin of changa, the ideas I built upon is that of infusing DMT into herbs I read about in Ott’s book Pharmacotheon and also a friends use of combining Mullein and Mint into a DMT blend. The innovator of doing that introduced it to Trout at Burning Man and trout told him it revolutionized his DMT smoking experience. I do think the use of Mullein or any lung herb in Changa is fundandental. My observation is that the caapi vine and DMT appears to activate the qualities of the mullein exponentially.

Aum_Shanti,

I find what you have said a bit forced and confused. I’m reticent to reply because quibbling and spllitting hairs is not my favorite way of communicating

I’ve never heard of anyone repeating that ER alchemy with the phalaris with the Syrian rue extract onto mint. It just sounds like they did this once.

I would consider it an early prototype of Changa if they had used 1) a blend of different herbs, not just one herb 2) a crystalline DMT extract rather than 5-MeO and 3) actually used caapi vine, Which I consider fundamental, though I know a lot of people prefer the rue extract smoked.

But whoever did this was totally on the right track and obviously had a very lateral mind!

There is one key thing they are doing though that is combining the MAO and the tryptamine in one smoke. I personally would never combine a Syrian Rue extract with 5-MeO and think its a bad news combination. 5-MeO doesn’t need it to be honest. One thing you are very much missing here, is that they clearly say in the report that the extracts contains predominately 5-MeO!

That changa is only defined as just smoking DMT with an MAOI is a very, very loose definition and can’t recall finding Changa defined in that way anywhere actually.

The point is, what I started doing, other people began to replicate it and it started a movement from there, this is something that you are not seeing or not choosing to see.

You're doing it again. Just because you were unaware of it doesn't mean it wasn't happening. The ER (and erowid) presents a tiny sampling of what was taking place in the underground at the time of publication. Even if the person who reported that via the ER was the only person to be experimenting with it at that time (unlikely, but let's pretend), the number of people who would have read that article and presumably tried it out for themselves would have almost unquestionably been significantly more than that single published experimenter (despite your protests). By your logic, only two or three people were investigating phalaris in the 90s, which is patently untrue.




So you admit that you didn't conceptualize changa. The conceptual framework was already in place. Thank you.



And it appears the cyb (and hug46) reference went over your head...

Snozzleberry,



Well, we don’t know. I know that Trout said in January 2003, he only knew of 1 or 2 people who had got phalaris to work. Not one, not two, but one or two.

The ER article doesn’t talk of any conceptual framework in place, just an experimenter who said, hey, this seems to work! I didn’t know about this article, and its quite telling that someone has only just dragged this up out of the old depths of the entheogen review now!

When I corresponded with Jon Hanna about Changa way back when, (an editor of the entheogen review) he certainly didn’t mention anything about people he knew previously doing this.

When people started posting about Changa on an “elite” email list that started in the early 90’s, none of the old timers said they had come across anything like this before, in fact, they were all very skeptical that smoked MAOI could possibly work at the same time if smoked with DMT!

It is totally plausible other people were experimenting with smoking DMT with MAOI’s. But who can say if anybody had a real eureka moment, or really saw this was really something? I personally think you only get that when using the ayahuasca vine or leaf.

Basically, I was the one who delineated a detailed conceptual framework, which primarily talks of the ayahuasca vine as being an activator of the other plants in the blend, and the DMT as well.

You can find that article in a sticky on this forum, ”Changa: Smoking DMT infused into Ayahuasca and other Herbs”.

There’s about 7,000 words I’ve written on Changa all up. Feel free to correct me, but I’ve written more about Changa than anyone else, and people tell me what I’ve written is the most comprehensive resource on changa, which is kind of what you would expect to be the case I would have thought :-)

I sent Dorge an early version of the article I mentioned previously and he wrote some stuff about Changa and had the changaya blogspot which was up for some years, but he had these strange ideas about Change as an evolution of ayahuasca and his conception of how it all started in Australia wasn’t quite correct, in that he posited we smoked changa because we couldn’t get enough ayahuasca vine to make a brew!

You'll note that I said "investigating phalaris." There is no question that more than two people were investigating phalaris back then. Come on now



You really seem to struggle with understanding what a concept is, eh? A concept is an abstract idea; a general notion.

If someone says, "Hey, you can take four wheels and hook them to a 'go box' and sit on the contraption to steer it," they've presented the conceptual framework for a car. Others may build on that concept, but the concept has already been elucidated and it makes no sense for others to try to claim inventing that concept...in reality, it makes little sense for the "go box" fellow to claim he is the sole inventor, as history shows.

Consider that when automobiles first hit the scene, they were called "horseless carriages." This reflects the conceptual evolution underlying the shift from horse-drawn carriage to automobile. The inventors of automobiles didn't create the concept of "passenger vehicles," they didn't even create the concept of the "engine"...they simply took pre-existing concepts and merged them together, building on a massive lineage of pre-existing research, development, and inventions. In fact, there is no consensus as to who invented the automobile and those who COULD be credited depend on which definition of automobile you choose to apply.

Hope that analogy makes some sense to you

Thinking back (phew, it's been awhile), it was the writings of Dorge and trout that first pushed me into the space. So, individual credit aside, a big thank you to the circle in AUS. I hope to someday visit your land and what I now know as the origins of my interest in Changa.

It's a bit hard to tell at this point, who is being a smart arse or being seriouse.
But yes Australia has been a hugely influencial addition the dmt culture globally for atleast 30 years.
And anyone who has not actualy been here,
Really has no right to coment here.

If we follow that logic to its natural conclusion, the entire enterprise of recording/analyzing/discussing "History" shouldn't be a thing, as people who weren't "actually there" have no right to comment