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Sickness free Ayahuasca Options
 
syberdelic
#21 Posted : 7/4/2017 8:21:07 AM

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Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Jees
#22 Posted : 7/4/2017 11:01:03 AM

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ShamensStamen wrote:
You don't have to avoid anything dietarily to consume Harmalas...there's no Tyramine reaction so you're all good there...
In general this might be true for an average person, yet there are exceptions that escape the rule, so be careful please. I'm lucky like you but found tyramines still having an impact on the ceremony making it a bit harder to endure, all subjectively.

-

syberdelic wrote:
...I have been successful mixing 250mg harmine and meclizine, with a remarkable reduction in negative side effects. I'm hoping that with the addition of DMT, that I will get the same results...
I read that meclizine is an antihistamine and contra indicated for SSRI's like prozac and alike. It should also potentially cause extra drowsiness. Just saying. But if you personally have no problem, that's great for you.

I've token concentrated ginger pills against motion sickness before with alternating success, not doing that anymore. Lying dead still is very important, and now my refuge is a few oat porridge spoons (made with oat milk) with more consistent success than those ginger pills.
MHRB/Peganum Harmala Anahuasca additives to help with body load? <-- check it out in #9 I link to a vid about it.
 
syberdelic
#23 Posted : 7/4/2017 8:47:25 PM

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Jees
#24 Posted : 7/5/2017 8:25:18 AM

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syberdelic wrote:
Out of curiosity, I have tested the waters of tyramine poisoning...

Well this is the only way to check on personal sensitivity isn't it. Good job Thumbs up
I did that too just about 1 year ago and came to this:

Jees wrote:
...This was not the case in my experiment for sure as I know pretty well harmala effect from others. To serve the cause of tyramine myth debunking, i've literally ate a bulk of tyramines on purpose to see what their effect was on a well known pharma session dosage, it was the very opposite of improving a session, it was very hard to endure, nothing constructive whatsoever. And again: beyond the regular harmala effect. No headaches, but a weird very upsetting drift, very physically challenging, exhaustion and an extreme vulnerability feeling. Never again such experiment.

I understand that eating lesser tyramines than that would not push the buttons so hard and might escape the radar eye, but I'm convinced that even a smaller effect could not be of a desirable nature. Then, these effects can easily and wrongly attributed to the harmalas doing, so a bit opposite thinking of yours.

Due this exaggerating experiment I now have a better feel for what tyramines do to the body, even outside a session in regular life. I now recognize it when it presents itself even in moderate levels and that does not cause a problem of course, but that tone, that tune, what it does to me, is nothing serviceable for a session with plants. There to me it comes across as a de-stabiliser. I've no need for headache to stay away from tyramines in sessions, to me tyramines carries that "strike" of restlessness.

I was in the tyramine debunk class based on arguments, til I found out otherwise by experiment, since then I avoid even it's smaller % traces in sessions. This is just me of course...

 
syberdelic
#25 Posted : 7/6/2017 9:47:28 PM

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ShamensStamen
#26 Posted : 7/11/2017 5:08:36 AM
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If you wanna understand the mechanisms behind this stuff, you have to experiment around with it quite a bit. If you did, you would know/realize that it is the Harmalas that causes the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, and the DMT causes the intensity. Also instead of taking just the Harmine, take the Harmalas (Harmine/Harmaline) or a full spectrum extract, or the actual plant. Harmine is weak and of course you won't feel much distress from it alone, i've taken up to 300mgs of Harmine and hardly had any effects from it, but 200 to 250mgs of Harmala extract or Rue full spectrum extract, or 4 to 5 grams of Rue seed will definitely cause nausea/vomiting.

If you really wanna see what the Harmalas do, you have to consume them regularly and let the reverse tolerance build up, the effects will get stronger before they feel cleaner, and as the dosage gets stronger you can back the dosage down a bit, take that dosage till it gets too strong, lower the dosage some more and take it till it gets too strong, and continue on with lowering the dosage bit by bit, allowing each dosage to get strong and back the dosage down a bit more and continue on. Eventually you'll only need a small amount of extract or Rue seed or Caapi vine for a full on Harmala dosage. And with Rue, building up the reverse tolerance definitely allows you to handle stronger/heavier Harmala dosages with ease, you can venture into heavy heavy territory with or without DMT and see what you miss out on without the reverse tolerance because without the reverse tolerance you just can't go that high without suffering greatly from undesirable/negative side-effects.

DMT is NOT the cause of the nausea/vomiting, i'm telling you this based on my own extensive and regular experimentation. You can learn about all the variables Aya presents if you would just seriously experiment around. I wouldn't be telling you this stuff if i didn't know it to be true based not only on my own experience/experimentation but also that of other people. With or without DMT in the mix, i purge consistently at an hour and a half to two hours after taking encapsulated Rue seed/extract or Harmala extract, DMT has nothing to do with it. I know what you're talking about though and why you would think it's the DMT, because i've experienced exactly what you're talking about, but ime there's something about the Harmalas that makes the stomach sensitive to DMT, i'm not sure of the exact mechanism but once the DMT hits the system the Harmalas make you vomit, and that doesn't happen, ime at least, when using Moclobemide instead of the Harmalas, there's literally been no purgative effects from DMT with Moclobemide, the only reason i've vomited with Moclobemide is because of DMT's intensity, but at least there's been no stomach issues. Building up the Harmala reverse tolerance though, seems to desensitize your stomach (or perhaps the 5-HT3 receptor) from forcibly having that purgative reaction, thus the DMT will no longer trigger the Harmala purge. You could still possibly have a bit of nausea (maybe from tannins), idk, but the vomiting definitely goes away, even with strong/heavy Harmala dosages.

Also, there is no Tyramine reaction with Harmalas, and Harmalas have other effects which can cause headaches (like vasodilation, or if you're dehydrated). Also it's better to see what Tyramine might do, without DMT in the mix because DMT's already intense as hell and so it's much better and more noticeable to try things out with just the Harmalas, especially after building up the Harmala reverse tolerance. Also, insufflated Harmalas do not inhibit gut MAO-A from my understanding (similar to smoking Harmalas or perhaps sublingual Harmalas, which as far as i know, does not inhibit gut MAO-A, at least enough to orally activate DMT, which would make a Tyramine interaction impossible as it is gut MAO (A and B) that breaks down Tyramine if i'm not mistaken, so having a Tyramine reaction would be highly unlikely from that. And i've taken upwards of 9 grams of Rue seed equivalent of Harmalas, and never noticed any Tyramine reaction, even at dosages where i'd get pretty noticeable tremoring and body trembling/shaking, and extreme trailing/visual distortions. Also the gut MAO-A inhibition only lasts for a short time, especially with Harmalas in tea form, so getting a Tyramine reaction hours after consuming the Harmalas is impossible. This can also be tested out by trying to consume DMT sometime after consuming the Harmalas, if the DMT isn't orally active, then you took it too late and missed the gut's MAO-A inhibition window and so if gut MAO-A isn't inhibited which is evident by DMT's non-activation, then Tyramine wouldn't have any impact on the experience because MAO-A and MAO-B would be able to break it down because gut MAO would no longer be inhibited. Moclobemide also fails to elicit a Tyramine reaction. I feel like these "effects" that people mistake for Tyramine reactions can be explained in other ways. People really need to experiment around and start being scientific instead of assuming these things, really put things to the test and figure things out, it's what i've done and i have no complaints because i know what this stuff does and doesn't do for me.
 
ShamensStamen
#27 Posted : 7/11/2017 5:09:58 AM
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And as for sourcing dreamer042, i have reviewed it very carefully, and i did not violate the forum attitude as far as i understand. Based on the attached picture, Moclobemide does not fall into the category of psychedelic compounds or research chemicals. It's a pharmaceutical anti-depressant, a reversible MAO-A inhibitor, and as such, is not against the sourcing rules. So you owe me an apology. Also, mods on this site need to stop banning people and at least give people some warning so people can correct themselves if need be, i think there should be a 3 strike rule here at the Nexus instead of auto bans. Auto bans just make people on this site look closed minded and ridiculous/strict imo, and it really irritates me to get banned for no good reason, i feel that mods on this site need to stop being so small minded. If i say something that is a problem, let me know and i will correct my posts, but mods need to stop banning people over small/insignificant/trivial stuff. This was my second time being banned from this site, the first time was my fault (even though all i said was that i had gotten Mimosa from overseas just fine, that's it, didn't even mention a source and i get banned by the Traveler, like seriously), and this time, i didn't do anything wrong imo. If i did (which i don't think i did), then let me know and i will not make the mistake again, but people need to be a lot clearer as to what the rules are around here so that people who are simply trying to help won't be automatically banned. If mentioning that i know a source for Moclobemide or if messaging someone a source for Moclobemide is somehow against the rules, then frankly that's stupid. Sourcing for Mimosa or Acacia is one thing, Moclobemide is a different thing entirely.

So let me repeat myself one more time, just so i'm clear. If i say something, that is against the rules, let me know and i will edit my posts, but at least give me a chance to correct myself instead of automatically banning me over something so small/stupid. I'm tired of being treated unfairly, i'm a serious experimenter and Psychedelic advocate, and i would like to be a member of this community but not if people are gonna pitch a fit over something so small instead of being mature and handling the situation like an adult. If i mess up, let me know and i will correct myself, there's absolutely no need for banning me.

Also, as for the Harmalas getting cleaner the more regularly they are consumed, yes, they do. The nausea/vomiting/diarrhea goes away, even with heavy Harmala dosages ime, with or without DMT. I've taken Harmalas and Rue A LOT, so i should know. If people wanna think i don't know anything or think my experimentation is invalid, then that just shows that people haven't done their own extensive experimentation enough to realize the mechanisms that underlie the effects of Harmalas and DMT. I know what this stuff does and doesn't do, for the most part. I've worked with Rue/Harmalas probably more than most people have. The dizziness/vertigo from heavier dosages may still be there, but the Harmalas are definitely a lot cleaner/better with the reverse tolerance than without it, and there's no vomiting/nausea/diarrhea, the body load cleans up a lot, the motor function impairment goes away a good bit allowing people to be more functionable, it's a lot better than Rue/Harmalas without the reverse tolerance, for sure.

And anytime i've ever vomited from this stuff, i've never, not once, felt like i was purging negative/toxic/built up stuff, it's always just been vomiting, which is the same for me with or without Harmalas but i've never felt like it was some cathartic release, even though i've always felt better after vomiting (but that's in general, with or without Harmalas). As far as i understand, vomiting is a representation of purging negative/toxic stuff, but that doesn't mean that's actually the case. If you feel like that's the case and you wanna subscribe to that view, feel free. But for me, the vomiting is just vomiting, an undesireable (though sometimes desirable) side-effect which i see no good reason for it to be around during an experience. I've had many vomit-free Aya/Pharma experiences, and for me the vomit-free experiences were a lot better and fuller and really helped to unleash the power of the medicine, rather than being distracted by the nausea and vomiting.


ShamensStamen attached the following image(s):
Nexus Source Ban.jpg (128kb) downloaded 297 time(s).
 
dreamer042
#28 Posted : 7/11/2017 6:55:21 AM

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Quote:
The only goods allowed to be discussed are legal live plants, legal viable seeds (both in the Sustainable plant and seed suppliers subforum) and legal/unwatched chemical supplies.

Seeds are fine, plants are fine, naphtha, lye, labglass, all fine.

We don't even allow sourcing of vitamins and supplements.

Providing (illegal) sources to prescription medications, not fine. This is a liability for the forum and is enforced with a zero tolerance policy. You can read it from the horses mouth here.

It is your job to read understand and adhere the attitude, when you break clearly written rules (which you agreed to adhere to when you clicked the join button) you clearly needed to take some time to review them more carefully.

It seems you still don't quite get it, and that's okay. You can feel about it however you like, as long as you are adhering to the agreed upon attitude statement there are no problems here.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
ShamensStamen
#29 Posted : 7/11/2017 8:05:06 AM
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Well then put that in the rules then, make it clear that only those things can be sourced, and anything else can't be. Make the rules clearer and people would know what the rules are.

I really don't see anything wrong with sourcing Moclobemide, or vitamins/minerals for that matter if a user asks me for a source, i don't mind it. I won't post anything further about sourcing anything in posts though.

Also, i wasn't providing an illegal source, it's an online store and doesn't contain anything illegal as far as i understand. You can't just pull laws out of nowhere, so show me where obtaining Moclobemide from an online store is illegal (especially if it comes from a place of the world where a prescription isn't required). Nothing i've researched on the matter would indicate that buying Moclobemide from an online store is illegal.

And no, the rules are by no means clear, they should specify what's allowed and what's not, they should make clear that you can't source anything pretty much and list the things you can source, that will clear that up.

But once again, might i suggest that mods simply correct people or inform people rather than banning them, i feel you'll get further along that way and make less enemies.

Edit - I should also mention i had posted the link to Moclobemide awhile back in another post, and nobody seemed to have an issue with it then, but i ended up removing it a few days later and decided to stick to just messaging the link rather than posting it in the threads. I didn't get banned, no body said anything. But then i mention i know a place to get it from and i send a dude the link and i get banned, makes no sense man. And also, i don't understand why it's such a big deal apparently, it's just Moclobemide, it's not like i'm sending a link for Xanax or something lol.

Either way, consider this my last mentioning of a Moclobemide source. Still though, mods don't have to be so cruel and quick to jump the gun, just point out the errors of people's ways, they'll be more than happy to correct themselves (i know i would), and let that be that. You don't have to ban someone to teach them a lesson for something you could've just easily explained.
 
syberdelic
#30 Posted : 7/30/2017 8:17:26 PM

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ShamensStamen
#31 Posted : 7/31/2017 4:46:18 AM
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Once again, i will say, it's the Harmine causing the nausea/vomiting, even though it may seem like it's the DMT. If you haven't tried oral DMT with Moclobemide yet, you can not conclude that DMT is what causes the nausea/vomiting.

Secondly, and most importantly, you took 16mgs of Zofran? Did you not read what i posted about how Zofran is potentiated by the Harmalas CYP inhibition? I only took an 8mg tablet with my pharma on a few occasions, and even that was way too much and drastically altered the experience in a pretty undesirable way for me. So before writing off oral DMT entirely, please take into consideration that imo, no more than say 0.5 to 2mgs of Zofran should be consumed with Harmalas/Harmine/Harmaline due to CYP1A2 and CYP2D6 inhibition, which potentiates the Zofran dosage a lot and thus makes the dosage you're consuming a lot stronger. 16mgs, with that potentiation, would've probably been beyond overkill, imo.

The only thing i've noticed, gut wise, about DMT or 4-ACO-DMT or Shrooms, is that it makes me have to poop, it gets my bowels going, but as far as nausea, i don't get any from DMT with Moclobemide, or with 4-ACO-DMT, and any nausea or possible vomiting i get from Shrooms has more to do with the mushroom material itself rather than the Psilocin imo. So in my very experienced opinion, it's definitely the Harmalas or synergy between the DMT and Harmalas, that causes the Harmala-related nausea/vomiting, and once again, that goes away if the Harmala reverse tolerance is built up a good bit.

So with that said, it sucks to hear that oral DMT doesn't seem to be your thing. Perhaps check out Psilohuasca? or 4-ACO-DMT? Psilohuasca is pretty awesome ime so far, so it's definitely worth checking out imo.
 
syberdelic
#32 Posted : 7/31/2017 6:48:47 PM

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ShamensStamen
#33 Posted : 7/31/2017 8:47:59 PM
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Either try Moclobemide with oral DMT, build up the Harmala reverse tolerance, try Psilohuasca using Shrooms or 4-ACO-DMT with Harmalas, or leave the experimentation to the professionals.

I know you think and believe DMT to be the cause of the nausea/vomiting, but it's not. I know it's hard to wrap your head around the Harmalas/Harmine being the source of the nausea/vomiting and everything is telling you it's the DMT, but i can assure you 100% it's not the DMT, it's the Harmalas. Believe what you want, but i know that to be the case. And as i said before, you may not get the nausea/vomiting with the Harmine/Harmalas on it's own, but a lot more of the Harmine/Harmala effects come out when the DMT is added to the mix. It's definitely the Harmalas that cause the nausea/vomiting, just because DMT may seem to trigger it, does not mean DMT is the cause of the nausea/vomiting. I've done A LOT of personal experimentation, so i know what i'm talking about here. Take my word for it or don't, but until you actually experiment around quite a bit, it's best to hold off on drawing your conclusions.

For some true experimentation, it takes a lot of trial and error to really figure things out, and to dive in regularly to see what's really going on. But as i said, try oral DMT with Moclobemide and you will see that DMT doesn't cause nausea or vomiting. Or build up the Harmala reverse tolerance a good bit by taking a good dosage at least 3 times a week for a couple or so weeks and see how that does for you. Otherwise, i'd definitely say to check out Psilohuasca using Shrooms or 4-ACO-DMT with Harmalas.
 
syberdelic
#34 Posted : 8/1/2017 2:55:13 AM

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ShamensStamen
#35 Posted : 8/1/2017 3:29:40 AM
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Imo man, i say just try the Moclobemide, just once or twice before giving up on oral DMT entirely (for the sake of science), i'm pretty certain there won't be any DMT-related nausea with Moclobemide, and certainly no vomiting. I mean ultimately it's your decision, but you really shouldn't let fear or nausea stop you from testing this out. I know the nausea can suck, but imo it's worth checking out the Moclobemide, just to see. Moclobemide with DMT doesn't have the Harmala aspects so it's not "huasca" and is basically just oral DMT, but it's enough to test out if the DMT itself is causing you nausea/vomiting.

As for the urge to poop having anything to do with 5-HT3, i don't think so, i think it has more to do with Psychedelics getting the bowels going by increasing peristalsis, so nothing to do with 5-HT3. Also it's usually regular poop, not diarrhea, unlike with Harmalas which cause diarrhea but with the reverse tolerance built up there's no diarrhea. Even smoking/vaping regular Changa or 4-ACO-DMT Changa has been enough to make me poop.

Because i have some stomach issues, i've also noticed i can have some gas or bloating on occasion, so it might be possible that some of your issue could perhaps be gas/bloating, so maybe taking some Simethicone or something might help give some relief, but i'm not sure.

Ime though, it's definitely the Harmalas that cause the nausea/vomiting, it may only show up when DMT is consumed, but with the Harmala reverse tolerance built up, the nausea/vomiting goes away so it's gotta be the Harmalas, or else DMT would still cause nausea/vomiting, and would cause nausea/vomiting with Moclobemide. People really need to approach this thing from a more scientific perspective rather than prematurely drawing conclusions. This is why we have a lot of misinformation about this stuff, because people don't experiment around enough, they encounter a side-effect and don't try to get to the bottom of it. I myself, am a rather scientific minded individual, and had the drive to really experiment around and see what was going on, which is how i came to my conclusions.

Trust me, i know stomach issues suck, i have had some pretty nasty stomach issues for years now (although it seems to be getting a bit better since being on anti-biotics, so perhaps they've killed off some bad gut bacteria or something), but i no doubt understand your frustration when it comes to stomach issues. But i say definitely try the Moclobemide with DMT at least once, just to make sure, before giving up on oral DMT entirely.

Alternatively, 4-ACO-DMT has never given me any nausea or vomiting, though with Harmalas that may be a bit different, since i've only taken 4-ACO-DMT, as well as Shrooms, with Harmalas when i've had the Harmala reverse tolerance built up, but i'd imagine with a good dose of Harmalas without the reverse tolerance, the Harmala-related nausea/vomiting would still be there, though things may be softer and less nauseating with the 4-ACO-DMT. But 4-ACO-DMT on it's own has never given me nausea/vomiting and is reported to have less nausea than Shrooms, because the mushroom material is enough to cause some people, myself included, some stomach discomfort. Also, 4-ACO-DMT with Harmalas seems Shroom-like and DMT-like, so it's a good way to go imo if you can't stomach regular DMT.

 
Legarto Rey
#36 Posted : 8/5/2017 10:35:01 AM
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Anecdotally, I too have had good luck with ondansetron mitigating the n+v associated with the ingestion of shrooms and anahuasca combinations.

Not a big fan of intense, protracted purging, my habit has become using extracted rue harmalas to potentiate oral DMT carriers. These seem fairly "clean", and modest doses are generally well tolerated. The "Tregar" method of filtering leaf or root bark(big necked funnel with cotton) teas additionally seems quite useful for reducing the n+v wave often associated with a goodly dose of lightbringer. Never having habituated to strong B cappi potions, the large quantitiy of plant matter requiste to brew adequate(unextracted) doses can be quite taxing but not without "benefits".

Of note, I'd be interested in hearing more from those who have experience with the use of moclobemide(RIMA) as a potentiator for anahuasca work. Specifically, info re dosage, timing, side effects and efficacy would be appreciated.

Peace


 
AwesomeUsername
#37 Posted : 8/21/2017 8:13:53 PM

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Isn't the sickness a part of it? I never liked it either, but it seemed to me that that's the deal you get along the package.

Funny story, actually. I only drank that much ayahuasca as I did because shrooms weren't available to me. I could get the plants legally and cheap. It also sounded way cooler to be able to say I drink ayahuasca, instead I eat shrooms.

Looking back, I would have had more to gain if I had shrooms. The trip is pretty much the same, but there isn't any purging, vertigo, sick feelings, cloudier headspace from the harmalas.

I see other complain about shroom body load too, but I didn't have much. At least not so much that it distracts me.

In my opinion shrooms are a good alternative. You might not be able to brag about how you drink ayahuasca, and posses the brew that has so much cultural significance to it, but if you don't have to deal with the nasty side effects and get pretty much all the same benefits in my opinion this is even a superior choice.

Heck, even datura has ritualistic uses that spread from waaaay back, yet I have yet to see a nexian talk about anything good about it aside from the neusea supression and trip potentiation at very low doses.
 
ShamensStamen
#38 Posted : 8/21/2017 8:32:03 PM
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Sickness doesn't have to be a part of the experience, one can build up the Harmala reverse tolerance and be just fine with no side-effects, even with heavy Harmala dosages, ime.

Alternatively, there's Psilohuasca, which if i take Shrooms it's always going to be with Harmalas, i prefer having the Harmalas in the mix, they add some really cool aspects to it and alter the experience in a favorable way for me, and yes, Shrooms are less nausea inducing but i have still vomited from Shrooms (due to abdominal pains and the mushroom material). Shrooms or 4-ACO-DMT with Harmalas imo is a very good alternative to DMT with Harmalas, although i think i prefer the DMT.
 
Legarto Rey
#39 Posted : 8/23/2017 9:14:12 AM
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Anyone else, aside from SS, have experience with moclobemide(RIMA)??

Peace
 
Legarto Rey
#40 Posted : 8/24/2017 8:32:04 PM
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Syberdelic and SS, talk to me(us). Love the thread. Tell, re experience using high proof ethanol or IPA to crudely extract from root bark or leaf, followed by oral ingestion, pre-catalyzed of course, by a RIMA of choice. This approach has been reported to be a simple approach to low nausea anahuasca. I'm all ears!

Peace
 
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