i remember reading a few posts saying how the dmt back in the day was different then the white spice we pull now. were they just pulling with toluene back then to get the red/orange/dmt spice combo? are there any old teks in books or anything? this subject intrigues me.

Hello. I would really like to know the answer to this as well. I was lucky enough to have had some old-timer spice 12-13 years ago and I will always remember it. It was orangy waxy looking stuff that blasted me out of the universe. I actually thought I had died...my only regret was that I hadn'T said "good-bye" to my loved ones.

I'd also like to know if anyone has specific information on what used to be common ways of preparing DMT.

I've collected together a summary of all the info I could find on the colored (yellow/orange/red) DMTs in my Jungle Spice thread (it's Section I.5) that would probably interest you.

I always wonder how 'back in the day' people mean.I understand synthetic was often encountered as an orange or salmon pink entity.I wonder when practical, reliably extracted material first 'went online' if you know what I mean, rather than being a figment of books and pamphlets and uninformed seekers floundering about in the dark.You only need to go back a few years on boards still extant to recreate that period Been playing with extractions for about 10 years' spurred by the DeKorne book which concentrated on Desmanthus and Phalaris and considered Mimosa and Pychotria too exotic to even mention by name.I believe up until a few years ago DCM was considered the solvent of choice; I remember on the old DMT world naptha being dismissed as a 'butter fingers' solvent.

That's what I'm curious about. If DCM was the solvent of choice, then it's possible the orange/red color could have been N-chloromethyl DMT, an extraction sideproduct of unknown pharmacology.

If it was being extracted from plants, then there are certainly issues to consider there.

But it could just be that most times when people encountered DMT back then, it wasn't freshly extracted, and the orange could have just been the result of aged spice.

And to further substantiate the thought that DCM reacts with DMT to make chlorinated derivitives, here's a quote from a paper published this year:



That's at least twice in the literature that it's been reported now. I wonder if it may have played a role in the old orange spice?

I have allways wondered about that. It was a yellow brown sticky stuff like treacle, little bit like ear wax to look at. It somtimes had large rocky crystals in it but its overall consistancy was gooey. I used to pay quite large sums of money for it. At the time I asked my dealer where it came from and how it was made, he didnt know, told me he got it from people in Wales! I talked to him more recantly and showed him the modern version. It turns out I know a lot more about it than he does.

This was a question, I asked on this forumn when it first appeared a couple of years ago, nobody knew then either.

This is an interesting old topic. What I would like to know is, when was DMT in free base extracted for the first time?

Did the ‘ancients’ vaporized free base DMT ?

As far as I know smoking DMT like we do now was only a rediscovering.

Some history:
http://www.dmtsite.com/d...n/history_discovery.html

Thank you. Looks impressive.

My first DMT extraction was back around 2003-2004, using "QT's DMT extraction for students". My first try was using Coleman lantern fuel and the stuff was green. One puff indicated that the stuff was toxic. Immediately after, I found some naphtha at a hardware store and produced the earwax looking stuff that had an occasional crystal embedded.

I used acetone to mix some with some parsley, loaded it in a pipe and was shown every religious symbol that ever was crawling all over my JNCOs. The voices told me not to succumb to these temptations as it means giving up my own identity to be part of something false.

Anyway, I doubt that many of the early extractions were vastly different than currently used teks. It's all fairly simple chemistry that was commonly used even back to 1900. Probably the biggest difference were the non-polar solvents.

The first encounter with spice that I had was in 1990 or so. It did indeed look different, large, barrel shaped crystals that were a dark red in color. It appeared to be rather 'messy'. The effects were definitely powerful and the taste and smell were exactly the same ( we just put it in a bong with ashes and torched.) All I know of its origin is that it came from the chem dept of a local college that is notorious for its drug experimentation. It was always assumed to be synthetic, rather than extracted, but that was only a guess.

There is an anecdote regarding this in "Mystery School in Hyperspace" describing an early encounter between Nick Sand and Owsley:

A few other quotes of relevance to this discussion:


This shines a bit moar light on the subject, but also raises some further questions. If Owsley was giving Nick an ass kicking about his DMT purity at Millbrook, how is it that the "orange mothballs" of Terence's first DMT encounter could have been sourced from Owsley? Did that first batch Terence tried come from an SRI "controlled distriubtion" or from the Pranksters?

It's my guess that the Kesey crew got handed off some of Nick's first batches of earwax back in '64 on that famous bus trip to Millbrook and this would be what Terence ecountered in that iconic "little glass pipe". Yet another quote in Mystery School suggests this to be the case:

Apparently by the 90's Terence wasn't rocking the earwax anymore:



Is that all clear as mud? Hopefully that helps convolute this already convoluted topic just a little moar.

Someone needs to make a really really detailed documentary about all this because I want to know. I'd do it myself but, I wasnt there so everything I could bring to the table is heresay.

I bet that was a fascenting time to be alive within that circle. Just to be a fly on the wall would get my jollies rockin'.

Why is it this isnt happening now? That whole era seems like full on glimse into enlightenment, or magic, something I'm not sure how to put into words, with everyone on board. The music, movies, the everything. Now it just seems like all you see is random people reporting on taking 9-al6-14-k21-charliebravo. There's no "magic". Where did the magic go?

One must keep in mind that Nick sand is credited with being the first to synthesize DMT clandestinely, rather than extracting it. Extraction of DMT from plant matter has a longer clandestine history.

Quick review:

·DMT was first synthesized in 1931 by Canadian chemist Richard Manske.

·In 1946 Oswaldo Gonçalves de Lima was working with extractions from Mimosa tenuiflora, through these extractions Gonçalves de Lima produced a compound called "nigerine", however, in 1959 when
Gonçalves de Lima provided American chemists with a sample, it was confirmed that "nigerine" was in fact dimethyltryptamine.

·Also, In 1955 Evan Horning and a team of American chemists working with Anadenanthera peregrina formally isolated and identified dimethyltryptamine.

---

Technically, a DMT extraction could have been preformed in biblical times...

I'll start with an example of purported chemistry use in the bible:

Here is the bible story:

Elijah encounters worshippers of Baal, and a challenge is proposed, each side will build an alter, and the alter which is set ablaze by God will signify whose God is real. Each side builds an alter. The alter fir Baal fails, however Elijah's alter catches fire after water is added to it.

The actual story:

So the worshippers of Baal failed to burn the alter with prayer, then:


Ancient chemistry serves as a reasonable explanation, and Wood, Calcium oxide, sulphur, naphtha, and water we're all available to these ancients...

Let me explain:

Elijah could have known that mixing calcium oxide and water would generate an exothermic reaction, generating temperatures of over 600°F, so taking this knowledge he could have decided to take some sulphur, naphtha, and calcium oxide, and mix these ingredients into a paste, this paste could then be applied to the wood from the alter, then when the water was poured on the alter the water would react with the calcium oxide generating an exothermic reaction igniting the sulphur and naphtha, and ultimately catching the alter on fire.

It's basically a giant match, the wood, sulphur and the naphtha are like the match head and the calcium oxide and water are the ignition source...

This shows that ancient individuals could have been proficient in basic chemical reactions and procedures, they had the materials and that technically these ancients could have been able to extract DMT. They had some rudimentary chemical knowledge, they had naphtha and they had access to natural bases and acacia trees which contain DMT, such as acacia nilotica. It's entirely possible that ancients could have taken acacia plant matter and soaked it in a strongly basic water solution, then naphtha could have been floated over this basic water mixture, the mixture would be occasionally agitated, allowing the layers to fully separate between each agitation, Eventually, the DMT freebase saturated naphtha could have been decanted, and then evaporated providing crystalline DMT free-base.

...while there is no evidence that this ever occured, it's entirely possible.

---

DMT is polymorphic and exists in pure yellow, and pure translucent crystals.



-eg

[quote=entheogenic-gnosis]One must keep in mind that Nick sand is credited with being the first to synthesize DMT clandestinely, rather than extracting it. Extraction of DMT from plant matter has a longer clandestine history.


Nick also was the first to discover that dmt could be smoked!

And he was behind some of the purest LSD on the face of the earth..sunshine..windowpayne..microdot ..blotter....
the [orange sunshine was purified 3 times!!]

I had the chance to try an orange barrel of sunshine...it was FAST! acting.. colorfull and very visual!


Back in the day..dmt was heard of... but for trippers ACID WAS KING along with magic mushrooms in the form of a tablet.


Every one i knew back then.. prefered acid... to being blown out of a dmt cannon barrel..back then dmts reputation was that it was too forcfull and strong...

We even had trip weed then.. pot that grew wild along the railroad track that led into us steel manufacturing plant...

One to three hits and the come up was much like LSD!

It was believed that the [trip weed] ..a strain of pot that grew.. [short and bushy].. near the railroad tracks that delivered raw materials to the steel mill in gary indiana was strong and trippy because of the plants chemicles that were released into the air from giant smoke stacks..

Personaly i think it was some awesome aisian weed that started from roachs being thrown from train or track workers simply smoking it while maintaining the tracks...

There was also stories about more trip weed patches that grew around sewage plants ..or well fertalized corn fields..

For starters, I refuse to believe that anything "biblical" bears any historic factuality or reality other than coincidental. It's a big bad fairy tale and a particularly ugly one at that.


This thread springs to mind.. About halfway, someone makes this observation:


The observation is made in relation to the exact same speculation as you are doing in this thread:


I emphatically refuse to accept that refined naphtha was available to the ancients of "biblical" times, until given at least some amount of reasonable indication of likeliness. They may have had access to crude petroleum, a tarry and smelly substance that no one would want to extract alkaloids with.

Particularly relevant to the fairy tale science you are proposing, is the fact that crude petroleum does not even remotely resemble water. When I read your proposal, my first thought was: "did he even try this himself, if only as a thought experiment?". But before writing this down as my objection, I read the transcript of the popular science tv programme "Ancient Discoveries - Lost Science of the Bible" from which you seem to have gotten your ideas.


Obviously, there needs to be less water than calcium oxide present, or else the copious amounts of steam generated would suffocate and quench any fire before it could get started. The tv programme hints that most of the "water" they use is in fact naphtha, which instantly negates all credibility of the historical applicability. There is no reason to assume that refined naphtha, resembling water, was available to the ancients.

Similarly, I would not be surprised if any actual water that was poored onto the staged experiment to react with calcium oxide turned out to be a highly saturated chlorate solution. Chlorates react violently with sulphur.


That does not match any composition of historical matches that I know of. Potassium chlorate frequently is part of the composition, which is why I make the presumption about its use in the tv programme's staged experiment.


Sure. Evaporate crude petroleum to recover crystalline dmt freebase.


I'm not going to partake in any of that if you don't mind.

That might be a little harsh on the lungs...

Maybe that's why people at that time didn't get very old...

This is hilarious, if you give scientific explanations to the bible the Christians get upset because it means that there was no miracle, just a crafty priest with some chemical knowledge that managed to fool (and murder*) the followers of baal. ...then the science oriented individuals get upset when you give scientific explanations of biblical stories because they refuse to believe that any thing "real" could be written in the bible...

*

Ok,

First of all, the bible was written by humans, the earliest copies date from around 300 years after the death of Jesus, though the conjecture is that earlier copies existed, before that the stories were said to be passed on by word of mouth. Then in 325ad under the order of Constantine the Council of Nicaea took the books of the bible, and edited and reorganized them into a suitable Roman version of Christianity. Regardless, these are accounts written in in at least 300ad which describe events which are quite older, and as a result actual history does seep through in some ways.

I'm not trying to say that they stories of the bible should be considered historical fact, but there are some historical accuracies contained with in it, specially regarding the culture of the time.



I know in that* thread I used the same example of Elijah and the worshippers of Baal, I ultimately came to these conclusions:

* https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=729448#post729448





yes, the naphtha of the ancients would have been found as a viscous, dark, liquid, and would require some form of distillation to ever be appropriate for an extraction.

Though distillation is all that would be needed to obtain decent naphtha. Distillation is an ancient art, around since biblical times, and while there is not any evidence that I know of, it's entirely possible that they could have distilled this crude petroleum ether.

Are you familiar with Greek fire? My research in this area leads me to believe that naphtha distillation would have been well within the limits of the ancients.



It's not "fairy tale science" I have seen a miniature experiment of Elijah alter work just fine in my organic chemistry course...I'll get back to that, first:

In the thread that you cited where I originally got into This topic I left the link to that television program, which was not the original source of these ideas.
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=729448#post729448

Ok, back to where I was, Believe it or not in organic chemistry one we were told this story and recreated a miniature version of Elijah's alter, not by the methods described by "ancient discoveries" in the link I posted, but by taking sulphur, naphtha, and calcium oxide and mixing these into a paste, this paste was then applied to the wood, and when water was added sure enough the miniature model alter ignited.



No, the steam is not an issue if you build the alter the way in which the bible describes:



He digs a ditch around the alter for the water to flow into, the water touches the calcium oxide, sulphur, and naphtha paste, starting the exothermic reaction and igniting the sulphur and the naphtha, then it drains into a ditch surrounding the alter preventing the steam from quenching the fire, the water in the ditch eventually evaporates if the fire is aloud to burn long enough.

The tv program hints a lot of things, again, I don't think they were pouring naphtha onto the alter passing it off as water, they were pouring water onto the alter, as I explained above.

That program was not the source of these ideas, and was NIT mentioned initially in this thread because if the discrepancies between the notion a which I proposed and those proposed by that program.

There is no reason why you would need distilled naphtha for this to work, the naphtha is mixed into a paste with sulphur and calcium oxide and applied to the wood.



I never claimed it resembles any historical match, I said "it is like a giant match" and it is, a match is a wood stick with a sulphur mixture at its head and an ecellerant soaked around the top part of the wood of the match and the sulphur head, it's a good metaphor in my mind.

In the "Elijah's alter experiment" sulphur is present on wood, with naphtha as an accelerant, just like a match, the water and calcium oxide are the ignition source, hence, it's like a giant match with a calcium oxide and water ignition source. Historical matches are not relevant to this metaphor.

---

Misc. Reference to ancient naphtha


-eg

https://archive.org/deta...enReviewComplete19922008
Page eleven first magazine. (Thanks Dreamer for pointing me to this).

How they did it in the 90's.

~Fate