A friend turned me on to the 1980's PBS show by Carl Sagan called "Cosmos" & there is a particular episode where he is explaining 2nd, 3rd & 4th dimensional theory's & the way he explains a 2nd dimensional being accidentally entering into a three dimensional space & then trying to understand, or explain where he was, what he saw & what he experienced there, but being totally at a loss to begin explaining it...struck me as extremely similar to hyperspace being 100% beyond explanation!!

Here: "The Edge Of Forever"

The dimensional talk starts at around 23:00 minutes, but watch it all!!! Great stuff here!!

In fact a lot of the information in this episode kept reminding me of DMT experiences!!
But he was talking about 3rd & 4th dimensional interaction & certain 4th dimensional geometrical shapes that we can't see, or even conceptualize because they use a fourth dimension & we are trapped in only three dimensions!!

3-D = Width (side to side)/Depth (front to back)/Height (Up & down)
4-D = right angles to all of those!?!?!?!?

There is a shape called a Tesseract (a 4th dimensional Hyper-Cube!)...that he uses to show a "shadow of a 4th dimensional object".
Because a 3 dimensional object casts a 2 dimensional shadow, in the same way a 4th dimensional object will cast a 3 dimensional shadow!!!
I'll let him explain why & how...

Check out the Wiki-link I attached to the word "Tesseract"!!
Tell me you haven't "seen" one of those...out there!!

Here is a quote from the Wikipage on 4th dimensional theory that I think is quite fitting!!:


Very interesting stuff!!! Very spicy indeed!!

WS

Yeah WS - That's good stuff. 4th dimensional study is what I focus many of my journey's on. It all makes so much sense when I'm in. Carl Sagan hands down has the best explanations of extradimentionalism! What's crazy is the the Tesseract Hypercube is only a reflection, or shadow of what the real thing would look like (i.e. it loses a dimension) in translation, obviously, since we can't see 4 dimensions.

My head often explodes into 4 dimensions when I'm in (like my teeth, and jaw, and tongue are places that they shouldn't be), and it never made sense to me until I started studying the 4th spacial dimension. Suddenly the additional axis are all so straight forward. Next time you go in try focusing on the 4th dimension as your intent. That was the first time I saw a REAL hypercube, in all 4 dimensions!

Good stuff. Thanks for sharing!

Peace
-idt

Carl Sagan was my man growing up. He was kind of like Terrance M back in my day.

I knew something was wrong with me,(or wright)I was a teenager watching PBS reading 2 or 3 nonfiction books a week.

His book "The Dragons of Eden" was a great inspiration for me in my teenage years.

Carl had a persona and way about him that made him easy to understand and comprehend especially when dealing with unfamiliar concepts and new subjects.

He is surely a giant in his time and will not be forgotten.


WS wrote
There is a shape called a Tesseract (a 4th dimensional Hyper-Cube!)...that he uses to show a "shadow of a 4th dimensional object".

yes hypercubes are all around just not noticed my avatar is a good example of one.

Christ on the cross can be drawn as a hypercube

and how about Mobius strip what goes in comes out rotated 180 degrees.

Excellent Book "Hyperspace" by Dr. Michio Kaku goes deep into this in a easy to understand way.

Thanks for that great link, I love Sagan!

If you're still interested in this stuff I would strongly recommend this tiny old book called "Flatland." (And they make a Dover Thrift Edition of it that sells for like $2.50 last I checked.) It's a sort of fictional story about the life of these creatures that live in different numbers of dimensions than we do (eg. 1-D or 2-D). It's not technical from what I recall and was a really fun and entertaining read that also gave you new ways to think about the topic at hand.

The thing about 4-D I remember best is almost exactly like the OP's quote at the end of his post so we may think alike. Imagine two squares living in their 2-D world, like they were drawn on a piece of paper. If they had eyes on their sides, they could look at one another and see whichever of their neighboring square's four sides was facing them. But now imagine how you or I, in our 3 dimensions view these squares. Looking down at the sheet of paper we can not only see their four sides (at once), but we can see INSIDE of them. The extra dimension allows us to see every bit of the insides of the square that it's fellow 2-D beings cannot.

The cool thing, of course, is that this same idea should apply to 4-D beings. By analogy you should realize that they would be able to see not only ever side (face) of our bodies at once and at all times, but they could see every single bit of our INSIDES too!! That's so nuts to me it always blows my mind to think about. That a 4-D being would be able to see every little space and crevice of our entire bodies from the inside out with just a glance... hehe

"with just a glance": here lies the essence of timelessness (and of immediate, intuitive understanding without thinking things through with the thought-train - if you see it in one moment as a whole, then thinking is not required. it's sooo 3d )

Right On! I waited to post this thinking it would go unnoticed.

I've been reading & listening to a lot about higher dimensional theory lately, here are a couple more things I found that make my brain curl up!

This is a cool little animation that helps to comprehend these extra dimensions beyond ours.
Part 1
Part 2
The guy in the video is no Carl Sagan, but he does a good job too. His whole series is pretty good stuff!

He is using time as the fourth dimension.
Think of time...from your birth to your death as a long winding snake...as all one long occurrence.
We in the third dimension are only able to see/experience one small slice of that long time-snake at any one instance. Like one page of a flip book, except it includes all of this existence, from the big bang...to the end of everything!!
In the same way, a being in the 2nd dimension can only see/experience one small, flat plane of our three dimensional existence, because there is no up or down in the 2nd dimension, they can only perceive segments of it, never the whole!!
Same with us & time...we can only see/experience this second in time...no this second...no this second...etc...etc...never the whole thing at once.
Our three dimensions are completely governed by time, still we can not see or experience it as a whole...only small portions of it at any one instance.

Here is that same guy talking about this concept & using feedback of his video signal to help give a visual example of time as a physical, snake-like object & how we can experience only single frames of it at any one instance.
Time Is A Direction
Is this that "shuffling-deck-of-cards" feeling/effect a lot of people often get from Salvia & sometimes Ayahuasca too? The twisting snake-like visions Aya is know for come to mind as well! The way it moves is like many pieces following each other...like a Slinky, expanding & contracting...then the visions come.
Plus the early life experiences that are also played out within the Salvia & Ayahuasca space begin to make more sense with this in mind as well.
(I may have to try some Salvia for the first time in 2 years with this concept in mind:idea


And then last but not least, here is an animation of a single point growing into a rotating line segment, building into a cube, then into a hypercube & back down to a single point.
Building a Hypercube
Helps to understand the actual shape of the Tesseract!!
Keep in mind while you are watching this, in a real Tesseract, all of these lines would be of equal length & right angles to each other!! Thinking of time, or the duration as the fourth dimension, this video shows what one could see, all in a single instance, from the fourth dimension.


Do you think the entities in hyperspace keep all of their JimJam in a "Klein Bottle", when we are not around?
Every thing taste so much spicier from a Klein Bottle ya know!!

Or how about making a DMT vaporizing device out of this one!!

WOW!!

WS

I also see a fractal pattern with the dimensions. On my first breakthrough the dimensions I experience were fractaled.

I think it's important to point out that there are two different concepts of a 4th dimension to consider here. There is Einstein's E=MC2 which defines the time-space continuum as the fourth dimension. This is the common 4th dimension that is generally accepted by quantum physics.

Sagan's ingenious models, diagrams, and explanations are those of a 4th "spacial" dimension. These are two different things. The 4th dimension of time-space is conceivable by 3d beings, because it does not add axis' to our 3d model. It's merely considering time as a dimension that always exists. So a moment in time is never lost, it's just behind us or ahead of us.

A 4th spacial dimension is where things get hard for our 3d brains because we do not have the capacity to imagine new axis' at perfect right angles to our known x,y,and z axis'. The only time I'm able to even remotely conceptualize 4 spacial dimensions is when I'm in hyperspace. Even then it's so fleeting.

When people refer to seeing all sides, and even the insides of beings in a lower dimension all have to do with spacial dimensions, not the time-space continuum.

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious here, but it kinda sounds like this thread is starting to intermix time as a 4th dimension with a spacial 4th dimension. I dunno... I just wanted to point out that they are two different concepts. What WS is talking about is a 4th spacial dimension. That's the real mind bender for sure!!

Peace
-idt

salvia I think really helps me understand 4th dimensioal physics..I actually think that salvinorin A might really show us that 4th dimension..I read this thread earlier and went and tested some salvia to remind myself

I find the same with spice. I'm not a big salvia guy. In fact I have a bunch that I haven't touched in a couple years. I'd love to hear a report of your last trip though. Maybe it will inspire me to seek the salvia experience once again... Care to share your experience?

Peace
-idt

sure..it was about an hour and a half after I had smoked some spice earlier in the morning with some harmalas..a mid level aya-esque voyage that lasted around 35-40 mins in total. I smoked a small hit of cannabis and crushes up 1 leaf that I had just dried..loaded my pipe full and took one large hit, finishing the bowl..

I held it for as long as I could while quickly packing another bowl full, exhaled, took a breath and hit the next one. oh..also as I was taking that second hit I got this familair feeling that is unmistakably salvia..like you are becomming something else, remember something else, or being something else..usually scares me but this time I welcomed it and held the hit for sooo long.

I wish soo bad that it was easier to describe this part of a salvia trip, but it's not! Its like with eyes closed I can now see into a new space..one that wasn't there before..like imagine you are in a room, with all the walls, floor and ceiling moving in on you..where do you go to escape?? If one were to exist in 4 spacial dimensions though, this would not be a problem..and thats exactly where it seems that salvia takes me..

So with my eyes closed I am twisting a pulling a bit, but the back of my eyelids are no longer there, there is only this VAST space, but it is somehow linked to the other 3 dimensions, through me..and in return "I" am linked up and extend through, integrating with this higher space, although not always aware of it. I can hear my sterio, with the between worlds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7N1LsE6ows) CD playing, but it becomes something else with eyes closed in this new space, and I begin to see a fence form, with a sunset in the background..this part sounds weird becasue I thought that I had actually caught myself merging with the sterio, getting it comfused with my head(even though it was like 5 or 6 feet away)...I open my eyes to see, and find I am sorta occupying 3.5 spacial dimensions..there is another space, another direction in which to move..but I am comming down now..I hear some dog going wild outside and it pulls me out, and my dog starts barking I though that I had left her outside and somehow got out on the street and was fighting...was still kinda confused and stumbled outside to see that my dog was not out there, but inside on the sofa..really I wasnt planning a breakthrough, but I came preaty damn close..

While in sage space, old 3d reality is still always there somewhere for me, just that its sorta flat looking compared to the inner-scape of the sage..like sometimes I can actaully look back out into 3d space.. There is alwasy this other aspect to salvia though, one that is really strange, and personal..the one that really freaks everyone out. Its why ego death with salvia is soooo startling. That higher dimension IS you, or at least you are a part of it. It speaks to me, like some sort of logos. I jsut think if it as a higher dimensional self..

on one trip I had a few months ago, I started to go real deap, and freaked as I felt myslef very literally split into 2 beings. I fought it for about 5 seconds..when I suddenly gave up and lay back down..well the peak was still comming on and I did split completely..and there was another me, talking back to me!! It(I) told me(myslef) that there was no hope, "he"(meaning the "me" I associate myself with) needs to let go..I actaully remember being this higher level being(self), that had knowledge and experience LIVING in salvia space(I think this may actually be what I have mistaken many times as the male side of salvia)..notice that this being was referring to me as "he", when directly speaking to me..like I was getting into 3rd person with myself..like a meating between 3 diff dimensional aspects of the self..and they were working together. I know this sounds crazy..but thats what salvia is! I was 3 beings at once,each on a diff level, one higher than the next.. but when i came back to normal 3d reality, I was just dumbfounded..like how does one translate something like that?

I really think that we are completely multi-dimensioal beings, extending up and down, integrating at diff levels within the dimensions.. that there are many diff echoes of the self..

I think everything works that way..they exsit and then extend, integrating at any and every possible angle, moving up and down the scale of complexity simultaniousily. What we know as the "self", is really nothing more that a dimensional referance point..we are holocgrams within a hologram of a hologram..

BTW..spice does open me up to a 4th dimensional space as well..just in a very diff way. There is something eerily convincing about it(sage)..something I cant deny.

For sure man, good point. As you correctly suggested, ALL of my previous post's references to a forth dimension were meant in the SPACIAL sense, not the TIME one. My 4-D illustration would really include a 5th (temporal) dimension in that sense. Which reminds me of something I read about string theory (physics) that caught my mind's eye; some of the models require not only 10+ spacial dimensions (although all but the familiar three are 'curled up' and virtually invisible), but TWO TIME DIMENSIONS as well!! Maybe I'll give that some more thought tonight, but right off the bat that makes no sense to me whatsoever... Anyone care to venture an interpretation on that one?




I really love this idea of space-time as a singularity, if you will. The flow of time really seems illusory to me. The alternative being a single whole that encompasses all the moments of time, all of existence, of the universe. Maybe like you can still put the moments in a logical order, but there is no one and only 'present' moment that moves along the time line as life proceeds from past to future. Or instead you could say that EVERY moment is in the present, but all these 'presents' exist simultaneously. Maybe sometime here I'll start a new thread on the topic, because its one of my favorites.



And just to bring it back to the subject at hand, I find our differing dimensional freedom of movement (or lack thereof) in SPACE vs. in TIME to be perplexing.

We are free to move (in either direction) along the three SPACIAL axes, and we can start or stop moving, and change speed at will. But in TIME it seems we have no such choice. Time just continually flows in one direction (past to future) at one speed. For example, whereas I can take two quick steps backward, pause for a second, then take one more to the right, I certainly can NOT travel two years into the past, freeze time altogether, and then resume its normal flow. Why is this the case??

Because time is not a dimension at all. The concept of time is an illusion. There is no time, except for the present.

Because we exist in the 3rd dimension, which is effected & shaped, by the 4th (the 4th being time as a spacial plane!!) but we are in the wrong perspective to see it or experience it, as a whole dimension.
The same way the 2nd dimension is effected & shaped by our 3rd dimension, yet completely unable to even be unaware of it.

Watch those links I made in my 2nd post above (part 1, part 2 & Time Is A Direction), the guy explains this quite well.
Also, he has a way of explaining the theory of time actually being another physical spacial dimension (like a long winding flip-book-snake!), that we can at least begin to wrap our heads around.
Time can be both a spacial dimension & at the same time a singularity.
One that we are only capable of experiencing a small sliver of, at any one instance...just like a 3-D object passing through a 2-D space!!
The 2-D beings would only be able to see, or experience a thin, flat plane of the 3-D object at any one instance as it passes through their flat, 2 dimensional world, but could never see or experience it as a whole 3 dimensional objects/beings, because they have no concept of anything but a flat existence, they can't even understand how there could possibly be another direction to exist in!!
Although they could think about it & prove that it exists by how the laws of their 2-D world are effected & shaped by those of the 3rd.

We experience time as we pass through it (or it passes through us...) one 3 dimensional frame at a time.
A paper flip-book is a great example!
Just expand that flip book to show our entire universe, from beginning to end!

Big concepts!



It's not that simple...where did it come from & where does it go?
That phrase is completely misunderstood by most people (when taken out of context like that) & misused a lot...it's not meant to say that time is not really there.
But instead that we are witnessing such a small portion of it, that what we consider to be time, is only the tiniest fraction of what is really there & passing through our 3 dimensions of perception.

From the beginning of existence...to infinity & everything in between (think about that for a sec, not just you & me & the earth, but the entire universe & every second in it), we witness only tiny moments of what is truly available & we are unable to manipulate it, because time (the 4th dimension) shapes & dictates the laws of the 3rd dimension. On a scale too large for us to fathom...it just happens...it's a illusion that time is small enough for us to perceive.
But we are only looking through the smallest window, of an incredibly huge house, at an impossibly gigantic existance!

What we know as time, is like thinking that one single page out of one single book sitting somewhere in one of ten billion different libraries, is all there is to existence because it's the only page you are reading right now!!

It's OUR, concept of time that is the illusion.

Man, it's so hard to put these ideas into words!
WS

My last ayahuasca experience gave me a glimpse to an interconnectedness, timespace-continuum of several dimensions as one thing.
Time and space as we know it didn't exist anymore.
There where only points, of wich it wasn't possible to determine whether they where points in space or time, probably both, that where interconnected by a wave of energy.

Space was deconstructed in time: different points in space existed each in their own time and the difference (time lapse) in time between them determined the frequency, wich meant that space was like a harmonious wave echoing on itself.

The other aspect of it was that each distance was made up of smaller sub-distances, that where made up of yet smaller distances. So all these smaller distances where like upper harmonies in a tone: Waves with a higher frequency, resonating with the base frequency.
They all had their own colour.

It seems difficult now, to completely comprehend. But at that time its was just so crystal clear. As if the great mystery of the universe was being revealed, completely transparent.

I believe it was close to a near death experience, and that DMT allows us to experience what's beyond this life. That somehow we're part of an energy field that, once we're completely absorbed in it again, is completely clear to us. Not even understood, but known through and through, simply because at that time we are that energy field. A bit like a drop of water becomes one with the ocean and at that time it is the ocean.