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pitubo
#21 Posted : 2/6/2017 1:09:54 AM

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Running Bear wrote:
[..skipped..]

Making such defamatory statements without providing a shred of evidence is slanderous. It clearly doesn't belong on the forum.
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
jiva
#22 Posted : 2/6/2017 10:03:04 AM

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i do not want to defend anybody but just to through 2 words in the conversation
Simultaneous Invention
even if the invention of changa was not at the same time, it could have been without knowing that something like this already existed
 
roninsina
#23 Posted : 2/6/2017 11:41:55 AM

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jiva wrote:
i do not want to defend anybody but just to through 2 words in the conversation
Simultaneous Invention
even if the invention of changa was not at the same time, it could have been without knowing that something like this already existed

This was my guess, as well. I have experienced this many times; sometimes where I encountered source data and forgot, and sometimes where I independently came up with something that I thought was unique and exclusive to me but had found many spots in the collective mind in which to express itself. Sometimes the world is just ready to birth an idea.
"We dance round in a ring and suppose,
while the secret sits in the middle and knows." Robert Frost

 
Sakkadelic
#24 Posted : 2/6/2017 2:06:25 PM

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Just to clear things up

Chocobeastie did not claim he invented changa, he claimed that he just named the smoking mixture of DMT and HArmalas changa, and that this name came to him during an ayahuasca trip around year 2000

roninsina claimes that in the year 1994 he was offered changa in this name "changa" and that was 6 years before Chocobeastie naming it changa

So it's not the case of the possible scenario of 2 people inventing the same thing and giving it it different names... but a much less likely scenario of 2 people naming an invention the same exact name "changa" independently

For whatever reason this confusion happened maybe someone lying or someone forgot the real date... we don't know but either roninsina or chocobeastie is right
or some very unlikely coincidence happened
Or some magical telepathic timeless connection occured and the already used name "changa" came to chocobeastie who never heard of it before
Or changa is the glossolalian name of changa Razz

Personally i tend to believe roninsina.
"Is this the end of our adventure? Nothing has an end. We came in search of the secret of immortality, to be like gods, and here we are... mortals, more human than ever. If we have not obtained immortality, at least we have obtained reality. We began in a fairytale and we came to life! But is this life reality? We are images, dreams, photographs. We must not stay here! Prisoners! We shall break the illusion. This is Maya. Goodbye to the holy mountain. Real life awaits us." ~ Alejandro Jodorowsky
 
roninsina
#25 Posted : 2/6/2017 5:21:07 PM

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Sakkadelic wrote:
Just to clear things up

Chocobeastie did not claim he invented changa, he claimed that he just named the smoking mixture of DMT and HArmalas changa, and that this name came to him during an ayahuasca trip around year 2000

roninsina claimes that in the year 1994 he was offered changa in this name "changa" and that was 6 years before Chocobeastie naming it changa

So it's not the case of the possible scenario of 2 people inventing the same thing and giving it it different names... but a much less likely scenario of 2 people naming an invention the same exact name "changa" independently

For whatever reason this confusion happened maybe someone lying or someone forgot the real date... we don't know but either roninsina or chocobeastie is right
or some very unlikely coincidence happened
Or some magical telepathic timeless connection occured and the already used name "changa" came to chocobeastie who never heard of it before
Or changa is the glossolalian name of changa Razz

Personally i tend to believe roninsina.


Except it wasn't a random collection of letters used to make some new sound in the English language, it was a traditional name of something which bears more than metaphorical similarities.

nen888 wrote:

...there is also a Quetchua and/or Shipibo snuff called 'changa', which is powdered caapi leaf with other (probably dmt containing) plants...

"We dance round in a ring and suppose,
while the secret sits in the middle and knows." Robert Frost

 
Sakkadelic
#26 Posted : 2/6/2017 5:49:01 PM

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roninsina wrote:
Sakkadelic wrote:
Just to clear things up

Chocobeastie did not claim he invented changa, he claimed that he just named the smoking mixture of DMT and HArmalas changa, and that this name came to him during an ayahuasca trip around year 2000

roninsina claimes that in the year 1994 he was offered changa in this name "changa" and that was 6 years before Chocobeastie naming it changa

So it's not the case of the possible scenario of 2 people inventing the same thing and giving it it different names... but a much less likely scenario of 2 people naming an invention the same exact name "changa" independently

For whatever reason this confusion happened maybe someone lying or someone forgot the real date... we don't know but either roninsina or chocobeastie is right
or some very unlikely coincidence happened
Or some magical telepathic timeless connection occured and the already used name "changa" came to chocobeastie who never heard of it before
Or changa is the glossolalian name of changa Razz

Personally i tend to believe roninsina.


Except it wasn't a random collection of letters used to make some new sound in the English language, it was a traditional name of something which bears more than metaphorical similarities.

nen888 wrote:

...there is also a Quetchua and/or Shipibo snuff called 'changa', which is powdered caapi leaf with other (probably dmt containing) plants...


Well yes maybe the people you met in 1994 learned the name from someone who named it after the caapi snuff... but chocobeastie didn't
These are his exact words
chocobeastie wrote:
Changa is the colloquial name I gave to a smoking mix containing naturally sourced DMT, Banisteriopsis caapi and various herbs that have a synergistic effect when blended together. Very simply, changa allows people to smoke DMT more easily and to get more from their DMT smoking experience. ‘Dreamleaf’ or just ‘Dreamtime’ are perhaps more formal names that have been given to this material. Yet changa (chang-ah) is very definitely the proper Australian slang name for this blend, which may make some Australians wince and/or smile, and people from other countries to raise an eyebrow or two!

And when he was asked why he named it like this he replied
chocobeastie wrote:
The name came through during an Ayahuasca session. Before that we just called it smoking mix!

It's just not very possible to come up with the exact same name..
"Is this the end of our adventure? Nothing has an end. We came in search of the secret of immortality, to be like gods, and here we are... mortals, more human than ever. If we have not obtained immortality, at least we have obtained reality. We began in a fairytale and we came to life! But is this life reality? We are images, dreams, photographs. We must not stay here! Prisoners! We shall break the illusion. This is Maya. Goodbye to the holy mountain. Real life awaits us." ~ Alejandro Jodorowsky
 
roninsina
#27 Posted : 2/6/2017 7:09:13 PM

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^^^

I don't know chocobeastie and cannot vouch for his credibility but, if I were to make a list of coincidences and synchronicities that have revealed themselves in my life and enumerate them from the most remarkable at the top to the most banal at the bottom, something of this magnitude would be fairly low on the list.
"We dance round in a ring and suppose,
while the secret sits in the middle and knows." Robert Frost

 
chocobeastie
#28 Posted : 7/12/2017 12:48:32 AM

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The Traveler wrote:


Just a question for you chocobeastie: what makes it so important to let the world know who 'invented' Changa instead of that it was invented at all?


I'm not sure what you are saying here. The fact is I invented Changa. I try to be very straightforward about that. I'm proud of that, but don't make a huge song and dance about it.

I am not sure what you are talking about in terms of people who doubt that in the Australian scene. I thought people in Australia thought it was a given I invented Changa!

This all just sounds like a lot of tall poppy cock sour grapes to me.

Graham St John goes into how Changa came to be in his book.

https://www.amazon.com/M...al-History/dp/1583947329

Do you think he would dare get his facts wrong when writing such a meticulousy researched book?

I certainly think it is interesting that roninsina said he was offered changa at a rainbow gathering in Wyoming in 1994, and wouldn't rule it out as a synchronicity, but then again, there is all kinds of bullshit on the internet about people who say they experienced changa way back when before it was actually invented. If that was the case then, why haven't we heard more about this Americanski Changa from anyone else between 1994 and 2004?

This is a little extract from this forum:

Topic: Trying to improve Acacia information  |  Subforum: Collaborative Research Project
chocobeastie
Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 7:39:02 AM

nen888 wrote:

lastly, i was accosted in the street the other day and strongly urged to say the following..
this person, a veteran of the australian circles, insists that the first introduction of the smoking of extracted dmt on dried caapi leaf (now commonly known as 'Changa' ) was by Johathan Ott whilst in australia in the late 90s..this was due to being asked by a local what to do with an acacia extract which remained an oil..however, my insistent source agrees that chocobeastie , an early pioneer, came up with the name 'changa' ..
phew! i'm staying out of it now..good on All you pioneers..!

--

Yes, Ott may have smoked DMT on caapi leaf, but he didn't combine that with other herbs, which is where changa has its magic in the blend of different admixture herbs.

And he certainly didn't share this discovery or write about it, or seem to think it was very significant. I certainly never came across DMT blended in ayahuasca vine in the byron shire after this time, so it very clearly didn't catch on! It was crystal all the way when I came onto the scene in 1999, and not THAT MUCH of it going around, maybe some people were smoking luxury joints with cannabis sprinkled on them.

When we gave Ott Changa in the early noughties, he disbelieved us when we said the ayahuasca increased duration and visual effect!
 
SnozzleBerry
#29 Posted : 7/12/2017 3:06:44 AM

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See here
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גם זה יעבור
 
dreamer042
#30 Posted : 7/12/2017 5:47:02 AM

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chocobeastie wrote:
The fact is I invented Changa.

See you say that, but just saying something does not make it true. You see there is this pesky direct evidence that is quite simply not case.

I present Notes From the Underground by Gracie and Zarkov courtesy of Erowid.

Pages 43-51 Entitled "THREE B-CARBOLINE CONTAINING PLANTS AS POTENTIATORS OF SYNTHETIC DMT AND OTHER INDOLE PSYCHEDELICS" copyright August 1985, demonstrate in no uncertain terms that smoked beta-carbolines and DMT were being explored and published on long before you "invented" this combination.

PDF is attached to the post for posterity.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
SnozzleBerry
#31 Posted : 7/12/2017 12:07:13 PM

omnia sunt communia!

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I decided to cross-post a brief excerpt from the monster of a post in the other thread so that it wouldn't be missed here, as I think it underscores an important point Wink

chocobeastie wrote:
Anyway, Graham St John covers the story of how changa came to be in his book “Mystery School in Hyperspace: A cultural history of DMT” This book is meticulous researched, do you think Graham St John would dare miss something in his extensive interviews in the Australian and global DMT scene?

https://www.anoniem.org/...al-History/dp/1583947329


I too have read (and own) a copy of MSIH and I think Graham did a stellar job in compiling a veritable mountain of information. While it certainly is an odd experience to find oneself referenced in a drug history tome, it appears you've gotten slightly ahead of yourself. Don't let that fame go to your head boyo! The passages that deal with you as the originator/inventor/namer of changa all appear to cite works by you, exclusively! I'm talking specifically about the passages from p167-p172, as those appear to be the pages relevant to the discussion at hand.

Surely you can see how that would leave a skeptic unconvinced, especially when numerous reputable Australians (and others) have disputed your claim to be the "inventor" of changa, with some acknowledging that perhaps "namer of changa" would match their historical experiences/knowledge/understandings.
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In New York, we wrote the legal number on our arms in marker...To call a lawyer if we were arrested.
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downwardsfromzero
#32 Posted : 7/12/2017 3:53:02 PM

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dreamer042 wrote:
chocobeastie wrote:
The fact is I invented Changa.

See you say that, but just saying something does not make it true. You see there is this pesky direct evidence that is quite simply not case.

I present Notes From the Underground by Gracie and Zarkov courtesy of Erowid.

Pages 43-51 Entitled "THREE B-CARBOLINE CONTAINING PLANTS AS POTENTIATORS OF SYNTHETIC DMT AND OTHER INDOLE PSYCHEDELICS" copyright August 1985, demonstrate in no uncertain terms that smoked beta-carbolines and DMT were being explored and published on long before you "invented" this combination.

PDF is attached to the post for posterity.

Ah, yes, there it is, on page 45:
Gracie & Zarkov wrote:
The purpose of this paper is to summarize our current work with B-carboline, Harmala alkaloid-containing plants, i.e.,
Passiflora Incarnata (passion flower)
Peganum Harmala (Syrian rue)
Banisteriopsis caapi (principle ingredient in yage)
Specifically, we wish to report on the phenomena and comparative activity when extracts of each of these plants are smoked in conjunction with DMT.
Wut?


Oscar Wilde wrote:
Originality is the art of concealing one's sources.


In all fairness,
Gracie & Zarkov wrote:
Approximately 10 minutes after this plant-material-high stabilized, 15 mg of DMT was smoked.
this deals with the sequential smoking of harmaloid material followed by DMT, rather than the simultaneous intake as a herb-based mixture.

EDIT: Notwithstanding, of course, this post in this very same thread...

It's perhaps a case of reinventing the cat flap, if not the wheel.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
dreamer042
#33 Posted : 7/13/2017 4:58:10 AM

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Let's not forget the "vegetable television" Terence and Dennis dubbed while smoking caapi on mushrooms back in the 70's at La Chorrera. Even they lend credence to the idea that this kind of thing has been going on for a heck of a long time before they discovered it.

Quote:
Then, almost in a collective motion, we set out in the early afternoon to the pastures behind the mission. Find the mushrooms. That was the thought on everyone's mind. We returned that evening to the house, each with six or eight carefully chosen specimens. These we ate and then, as the evening's trip deepened, we smoked joints rolled out of shavings of the freshly gathered Banisteriopsis caapi. The caapi smoke was delicious; it smelled like a light incense, and each toke synergized beautiful slow-motion volleys of delicate hallucinations, which we immediately dubbed "vegetable television."

Each burst of imagery would last about fifteen minutes and subside; then we would take another hit of the caapi smoke. The cumulative effect persisted for a couple of hours. We triggered it repeatedly, and excitedly discussed it as an example of the sort of thing that sophisticated shamanic technicians must have been whipping up for each other's amazement since the late paleolithic.

True Hallucinations, Chapter 5
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
nen888
#34 Posted : 7/13/2017 12:53:04 PM
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nice archival revivals dreamer042,
i'm also adding this for posterity, as far as concept goes:

DMTurner 1994 (Essential Psychedelic Guide) :-


Quote:
"N,N-DMT is significantly intensified by Harmala. Smoking 15-20 mg. of N,N-DMT while on Harmala will produce an experience as intense as smoking 40 mg. of N,N-DMT by itself. This is especially useful because it's difficult to smoke 40 mg. of harsh tasting DMT. Harmala will also extend the N,N-DMT experience to about 30 to 40 minutes total. The high of both types of DMT while on Harmala is a much slower process. I don't feel "blown out of my mind" quite so quickly. The focus of the experience becomes personally involved, rather than the feeling that I'm a voyager in some alien realm. I tend to experience an increased awareness of my mind, body, and subtle energy. I often feel that my body and Being are "embraced" by an ancient earth spirit."


 
SnozzleBerry
#35 Posted : 7/13/2017 1:50:51 PM

omnia sunt communia!

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Well, as long as we're archiving...

I've attached a paper that documents evidence of smoking tryptamines (potentially alongside beta-carbolines) going back to pre-2000 BCE.

Perhaps most relevant to the discussion at hand is this (I've edited the references/figures out of this excerpt to aid in reading, please see attached paper for exact quote with all references included):

Quote:
The earliest evidence for the use of psychoactive plants in South America is provided by the materials found at the sites of Inca Cueva, and Huachichocana, both located in the Puna de Jujuy, NW Argentina, at an altitude of 3860 mts. above sea level. Inca Cueva is a small cave with no stratification and no associated human remains. The archaeological materials were deposited on top of a straw floor in the rear of the cave. Two smoking pipes made of Feline (Felis Concolor) bone were found in association with knotted bags, gourds, spiral baskets, and Anadenanthera and Prosopis seeds. Preliminary chemical analysis of the pipe material indicated the presence of dimethyltryptamine. Radiocarbon testing yielded a date of 2130 B.C. This is one of the earliest dates related to psychoactive plant use in South America.


It seems worth mentioning that Prosopis nigra, indigenous to the area in question, contains harman and eleagnine...both of which are beta-carbolines. So, over 4000 years ago, we have archeological evidence of a pipe with DMT residue and the presence of plant materials that make good candidates for representing the combination of DMT and beta-carbolines.

Interesting, no?

If someone with a much better grasp of Spanish than I could grab and read the following two papers (especially the 1980 one), we might shine even more light on the species at hand, as well as the phytochemical analysis. It appears the 1980 paper only exists in hardcopy, or at least, I couldn't find it electronically:

AGUERRE A. M., FERNANDEZ DISTEL A. & ASCHERO C. A., 1975 - Comentarios sobre nuevas
fechas en la cronologia arqueologica preceramica de la Provincia de Jujuy Relaciones.
Sociedad Argentina de Antropologia IX (nueva serie): 211-214, Buenos Aires.

FERNANDEZ DISTEL, ALICIA A., 1980 - Hallazgo de pipas en complejos preceramicos del
borde de la Puna Jujena (Republica Argentina) y el empleo de alucinógenos por
parte de las mismas culturas. Estudios Arqueologicos 5: 55-79, Universidad de Chile,
Antofagasta (includes appendix with a brief description of chemical analysis of pipe
material).
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In New York, we wrote the legal number on our arms in marker...To call a lawyer if we were arrested.
In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names.
גם זה יעבור
 
endlessness
#36 Posted : 7/13/2017 2:38:58 PM

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I can read them if anyone can find a copy Smile
 
dreamer042
#37 Posted : 7/13/2017 2:46:08 PM

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Here's the first one.

Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
dreamer042
#38 Posted : 7/17/2017 1:04:21 AM

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An SA thread from 2005 dealing with "smokable ayahuasca" and changa.

http://www.shaman-austra...p;do=content&page=22
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
dreamer042
#39 Posted : 7/17/2017 2:13:01 AM

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Deoxy.org article dated Feb. 1, 2001 that mentions smoking mixtures containing DMT being used in the jungle.

http://deoxy.org/ayadef2.htm

Quote:
Normally DMT is not active when taken orally - it has to be smoked (and there are several other snuffs and smoking mixtures in jungle sorcery that do contain only DMT). But it's been found that harmaline prevents the breakdown of DMT by the digestive system and allows it to enter the bloodstream when one drinks Ayahuasca. Harmaline also extends DMT's visionary effects for up to 6 hours. So it turns out that DMT, which I had always considered to be an exotic laboratory drug, has actually been used by sorcerers in the Amazon for thousands of years.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
dreamer042
#40 Posted : 7/17/2017 5:31:04 AM

Dreamoar

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Smoking ayahausca extract on LSD circa 2000.

https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=1777
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
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