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How does the DMT world provide the personal conviction for an afterlife? Options
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#41 Posted : 12/1/2016 6:49:33 PM
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slewb wrote:
Quote:
To think that all the consciousness you will ever experiance will occur in a single physical body in a single physical place at a single time is absurd...

Why is that absurd?

As far as we know, a DMT flash (or other OBE) is experienced by the brain. It requires a pretty ballsy leap of faith to say that once the brain is gone, the experience is the same.

Personally, I suspect the afterlife is the same as this life - I just won't be part of it anymore.


The universe does not build up such complex forms as ourselves without conserving them in some astonishing and surprising way that relates to the intuitions that we have from the psychedelic experience."
- Terence McKenna



Everything I know about consciousness makes me feel that the belief that all the consciousness one will.ever experiance will be limited to a single physical body in a single physical place at a single point in time, is absolutly incorrect, a fallacy of being entangled in physical form.... this notion is antithetical to the nature of consciousness itself, at least in my eyes.

Again, I'm not here to convince anybody of anything, and it's fine if you disagree.



When consciousness is finally understood, it will mean that the absence of consciousness will be understood. The study of consciousness leads, inevitably, to the study of death. Death is both a historical and an individual phenomenon about which we, as monkeys, have great anxiety. But what the psychedelic experience seems to be pointing out is that actually the reductionist view of death has missed the point and that there is something more. Death isn't simple extinction. The universe does not build up such complex forms as ourselves without conserving them in some astonishing and surprising way that relates to the intuitions that we have from the psychedelic experience." Terence McKenna



I truly dislike the term "after-life" because non-physical being, such as that occurs at death, is nothing like life, it's like the DMT flash, your ego becomes a blank slate (most describe this as "dissolving out of existance) everything about human life dissolves, your friends, your family, your name and personality and physical form, all dissolved, like a distant dream after waking, these things seem light years from the state you have currently reached, you have no physical body, I always get the sense that I have arms, and at times my residual human form brakes through, but all and all I have no physical body or physical form, then there's no time, this "zero time" state is so different from life that it's hard to even incorporate the concept into human thought, so no ego, no physical form, no time, no physical matter, no physics at all, and a complete disconnection from the physical form...I see all of these features as being analogous to what occurs when your conscious-being must leave it's physical shelter at death.

....aside from all of this, there's this intense feeling of deja-vu, I know that I have reached the state that is after death but before reincarnation, the between, I have the feeling that I have been there many times before, and there's no question as to where I am or what's happening...

***Again, it's impossible to convince others of these things, it's something that is outside of scientifical analysis, like the experiance of death itself it's personal, it occurs to you alone, and you must deal with it on your own, you can't reach back into the physical world for help, you friends and family on earth can't save you, you must face death alone, and incidentally you must learn about death and explore non-physical conscious states alone.***



Sorry this is so long, but it deeply relates to my DMT explorations as well as my exploration and understanding of non-physical.and after death conscious states:

The Bardo Thodol teaches that once awareness is freed from the body, it creates its own reality as one would experience in a dream. This dream occurs in various phases (bardos) in ways both wonderful and terrifying. Overwhelming peaceful and wrathful visions and deities appear. Since the deceased's awareness is in confusion of no longer being connected to a physical body, it needs help and guidance in order that enlightenment and liberation occurs. The Bardo Thodol teaches how we can attain Nirvana by recognizing the heavenly realms instead of entering into the lower realms where the cycle of birth and rebirth continue.

The following is a description of the bardo realms that one travels through after death.
1. The First Bardo Afterlife Realm

The first bardo comes at the very moment of death, when there dawns the Clear Light of the Ultimate Reality. This is the very content and substance of the state of liberation, if only the soul can recognize it and act in a way to remain in that state. The instructions intended to be read at the moment of the person's death are designed to help him do this. He is told, first of all, to embrace this supreme experience not in a selfish and egoistic way but rather with love and compassion for all sentient beings. This will aid him in the second step, which is to realize that his own mind and self is identical with the Clear Light, implying that he himself IS the Ultimate Reality, "the All-good Buddha", transcending time, eternity, and all creation. If he can recognize this while in this supreme state at the moment of death, he will attain liberation-that is, he will remain in the Clear Light forever. This condition is called the "Dharmakaya", the highest spiritual body of the Buddha.

Most souls, however, will fail to do this. They will be pulled down by the weight of their karma into the second stage of the first bardo, called the Secondary Clear Light seen immediately after death.At this point, there are separate instructions to be read according to the spiritual condition of the person while in life. For an individual advanced in meditation and other spiritual practices, there is repeated over and over the same instructions as at the moment of death, enjoining him to recognize himself as the Dharmakaya.For a person who was still at a student-level on the spiritual path, there is the injunction for him to meditate on his "tutelary deity", that is, the particular god for whom he performed devotional practices while alive. Finally,"if the deceased be of the common folk", unpracticed in any spiritual disciplines, the instruction is to "meditate upon the Great Compassionate Lord", which is to say an "Avatar" worshipped by the multitude, equivalent to Jesus as conceived by the average Christian.

2. The Second Bardo

If the soul is still not liberated at this stage, it will descend into the second bardo, which is said to last for two weeks. The second bardo is also divided into two parts; in the first, the soul of the deceased encounters what are referred to as "the Peaceful Deities."On each of the seven days, a particular Buddha-being will appear in radiance and glory, with a bevy of angelic attendants. At the same time, on each day in turn there will shine a light from one of the six worlds of the Buddhist universe, called"Lokas" (the basic meaning is "place";our English words "location" and "locale" are derived from the same Sanskrit root).

On the first day of the second bardo, there appears to the soul the divine Father-Mother - that is, the supreme deity of the universe, transcending all dualities, including the division into sexes. The next step in the destiny of the soul is determined by his reaction to this God. If his life on Earth was well lived, he will now be in a state of purity and grace, and he will enter into the joy of the God and attain liberation. If on the other hand he has lived an ignoble and impious life, the effects of his bad karma will cause the intense radiant presence of the God to strike fear and terror in his heart, and he will be drawn instead to the softer light of the Deva-Loka, which has dawned along with this deity. This is still a fairly attractive fate, for the Devas are the Gods (or angels), and their Loka is equivalent to the Christian heaven; however, the Buddhist teaching is that even heaven is not the highest spiritual objective, because it is still only a temporary state in the manifest universe. Liberation is believed to be the only final and permanent resting-place for the soul, an un-manifest state beyond all existence.

On the second day, there appears the second-highest God in the Buddhist pantheon - in fact, he is actually the Second Person in the literal Buddhist Holy Trinity. At the same time, there dawns a smoky light from hell; and here we note that, just as the Buddhist heaven is not a permanent, eternal state, neither is its hell. Even the most wretched souls will eventually work their way out of even the deepest pit of hell, just as even the highest and purest souls will eventually lose their footing in heaven and descend again into the cycle of death and rebirth. Liberation is the only way out.

Once again, if the soul responds to the "dazzling white light"of the second God with the joy of a pure heart, he will be liberated thereby; but if he specifically reacts with ANGER from having indulged in this vice on Earth, he will recoil from the light in fear and be drawn into hell.

The pattern is repeated on the third day; this time it is the fault if egotism that will cause the soul to react to the God with fear, and he will be drawn to the human world, where his next incarnation will thereby take place. On the fourth day dawns the God of Eternal Life; if the soul has a negative reaction to him because of miserliness and attachment, he will be drawn toward rebirth in the Preta-Loka, a world of"hungry ghosts"who have huge stomachs and throats the size of pinholes, and so they wander about in a constant state of unsatisfied ravenous desire. On the fifth day comes God in the form of an Almighty Conqueror; this time it's jealousy that will unseat the soul, and he will be born into the Asura-Loka, a world of fierce warrior-deities (or demons). On the sixth day all the deities return and dawn together, along with the lights from all six Lokas. On the seventh day there appear the Knowledge-Holding Deities, who are more fierce and demonic-looking than those that have previously dawned;and in fact they are sort of a transitional element to the next stage of the second bardo, where the soul encounters the wrathful deities. Meanwhile, if because of stupidity the soul cannot face the Knowledge-Holding Deities, he is drawn toward the Brute-Loka - that is, he will be reborn on Earth as an animal.

In the second week of the second bardo, the soul meets seven legions of Wrathful Deities: hideous, terrifying demons who advance upon him with flame and sword, drinking blood from human skulls, threatening to wreak unmerciful torture upon him, to maim, disembowel, decapitate and slay him.The natural tendency, of course, is for the soul to attempt to flee from these beings in stark, screaming, blood-curdled terror;but if he does, all is lost. The instructions at this stage of the Bardo are for the soul to have no fear, but rather to recognize that the Wrathful Deities are really the Peaceful Deities in disguise, their dark side manifesting as a result of his own evil karma. The soul is told to calmly face each demon in turn and visualize it as the deity it truly is, or else as his own tutelary deity; if he can do this, he will merge with the being and attain the second degree of Liberation, that lesser aspect of it which is now the best he can hope for here in the second bardo.

Furthermore, he is told to awaken to the fact that all these fearsome creatures are not real, but are merely illusions emanating from his own mind. If he can recognize this, they will vanish and he will be liberated.If he can't, he eventually wanders down to the third bardo.

3. The Third Bardo

In the third bardo the soul encounters the Lord of Death, a fearsome demonic deity who appears in smoke and fire, and subjects the soul to a Judgment. If the dead person protests that he has done no evil, the Lord of Death holds up before him the Mirror of Karma, "wherein every good and evil act is vividly reflected." Now demons approach and begin to inflict torments and punishments upon the soul for his evil deeds. The instructions in the Bardo Thodol are for him to attempt to recognize the Voidness of all these beings, including the Lord of Death himself; the dead person is told that this entire scene unfolding around him is a projection from his own mind. Even here he can attain liberation by recognizing this.

The soul who is still not liberated after the Judgment will now be drawn remorselessly toward rebirth.

The lights of the six Lokas will dawn again; into one of these worlds the soul must be born, and the light of the one he is destined for will shine more brightly than the others.The soul is still experiencing the frightening apparitions and sufferings of the third bardo, and he feels that he will do anything to escape from this condition. He will seek shelter in what appear to be caves or hiding-places, but which are actually the entrances to wombs. He is warned of this by the text of the Bardo Thodol, and urged not to enter them, but to meditate upon the Clear Light instead; for it is still possible for him to achieve the third degree of liberation and avoid rebirth.

Finally there comes a point where it is no longer possible to attain liberation, and after this the soul is given instructions on how to choose the best womb for a favorable incarnation. The basic method is non-attachment:to try to rise above both attraction to worldly pleasures and repulsion from worldly ills.

The final words of the Bardo Thodol are: "Let virtue and goodness be perfected in every way."

http://www.near-death.co...an-book-of-the-dead.html



...But what the psychedelic experience seems to be pointing out is that actually the reductionist view of death has missed the point and that there is something more!
Death isn't simple extinction.

The universe does not build up such complex forms as ourselves without conserving them in some astonishing and surprising way that relates to the intuitions that we have from the psychedelic experience."
- Terence McKenna



-eg
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Swayambhu
#42 Posted : 12/2/2016 11:07:53 AM

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Re; Eben Alexander; I'm only weighing in here because the good doctor was the source of a disagreement between an old (impressionable stoner) friend and I for some time.
Dr. Alexander is either deluded or a deceiver, because the very, very simple fact is that in order to -have been- brain dead (if such a thing can be said of someone who is still alive) you must have previously been conscious, then "brain dead", then come back through the subconscious back to consciousness.
Thus the assertion that his experience -must- have happened during a period of "brain death" is pure bullshit.
That is all.
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#43 Posted : 12/2/2016 3:11:44 PM
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Swayambhu wrote:
Re; Eben Alexander; I'm only weighing in here because the good doctor was the source of a disagreement between an old (impressionable stoner) friend and I for some time.
Dr. Alexander is either deluded or a deceiver, because the very, very simple fact is that in order to -have been- brain dead (if such a thing can be said of someone who is still alive) you must have previously been conscious, then "brain dead", then come back through the subconscious back to consciousness.
Thus the assertion that his experience -must- have happened during a period of "brain death" is pure bullshit.
That is all.


Again, I'm no "true believer" in this guy, but your argument against why he can't be telling the truth doesn't make any sense. So while I'm mostly playing devils advocate here, I still see this story as another piece of evidence to be considered when in the study of consciousness.

Ok, so You are saying: "in order for your physical brain to lose function, you must have previously been conscious, lost consciousness, then returned to consciousness" , do you see how you really did not say anything at all? This makes no sense.

Quote:
Swayambhu said: because the very, very simple fact is that in order to -have been- brain dead (if such a thing can be said of someone who is still alive) you must have previously been conscious, then "brain dead", then come back through the subconscious back to consciousness.


How much research have you put into what Encephalitis/Meningitis does to the brain?
Dr. Alexander's explanations are entirely feasible and scientifically sound, if you have an argument which correlates to doctor Alexander's explanations, or which shows how he made some error, I would be happy to discuss it.
Quote:
Isolated preservation of cortical regions might have explained some elements of my experience, but certainly not the overall odyssey of rich experiential tapestry. The severity of my meningitis and its refractoriness to therapy for a week should have eliminated all but the most rudimentary of conscious experiences: peripheral white blood cell [WBC] count over 27,000 per mm3, 31 percent bands with toxic granulations, CSF WBC count over 4,300 per mm3, CSF glucose down to 1.0 mg/dl (normally 60-80, may drop down to ~ 20 in severe meningitis), CSF protein 1,340 mg/dl, diffuse meningeal involvement and widespread blurring of the gray-white junction, diffuse edema, with associated brain abnormalities revealed on my enhanced CT scan, and neurological exams showing severe alterations in cortical function (from posturing to no response to noxious stimuli, florid papilledema, and dysfunction of extraocular motility [no doll’s eyes, pupils fixed], indicative of brainstem damage). Going from symptom onset to coma within 3 hours is a very dire prognostic sign, conferring 90% mortality at the very beginning, which only worsened over the week. No physician who knows anything about meningitis will just “blow off” the fact that I was deathly ill in every sense of the word, and that my neocortex was absolutely hammered. Anyone who simply concludes that “since I did so well I could not have been that sick” is begging the question, and knows nothing whatsoever about severe bacterial meningitis.

I invite the skeptical doctors to show me a case remotely similar to mine. My physicians, and their consultants at UVA, Bowman Gray-Wake Forest, Duke, Harvard, Stanford and beyond were astonished that I recovered.

In an effort to explain the “ultra-reality” of the experience, I examined this hypothesis: Was it possible that networks of inhibitory neurons might have been predominantly affected, allowing for unusually high levels of activity among the excitatory neuronal networks to generate the apparent “ultra-reality” of my experience? One would expect meningitis to preferentially disturb the superficial cortex, possibly leaving deeper layers partially functional. The computing unit of the neocortex is the six-layered “functional column,” each with a lateral diameter of 0.2–0.3 mm. There is significant interwiring laterally to immediately adjacent columns in response to modulatory control signals that originate largely from subcortical regions (the thalamus, basal ganglia, and brainstem). Each functional column has a component at the surface (layers 1–3), so that meningitis effectively disrupts the function of each column just by damaging the surface layers of the cortex. The anatomical distribution of inhibitory and excitatory cells, which have a fairly balanced distribution within the six layers, does not support this hypothesis. Diffuse meningitis over the brain’s surface effectively disables the entire neocortex due to this columnar architecture. Full-thickness destruction is unnecessary for total functional disruption. Given the prolonged course of my poor neurological function (seven days) and the severity of my infection, it is unlikely that even deeper layers of the cortex were still functioning in more than isolated pockets of small networks.

The thalamus, basal ganglia, and brainstem are deeper brain structures (“subcortical regions”) that some colleagues postulated might have contributed to the processing of such hyperreal experiences. In fact, all agreed that none of those structures could play any such role without having at least some regions of the neocortex still functional. All agreed in the end that such subcortical structures alone could not have handled the intense neural calculations required for such a richly interactive experiential tapestry.

There are 9 hypotheses discussed in an appendix of my book that I derived based on conversations with colleagues. None of them explained the hyper-reality in any brain-based fashion. -E. Alexander


I'm not saying that what happened to doctor Alexander proves anything but it does lend credence to the conjecture that consciousness is not a product of the physical body, and if you contemplate the implications of this notion you will find that if consciousness is not a product of the physical body, than there's no reason why your conscious experiance needs to.end with the destruction of your physical body.

Again, I'm not here to convince anybody of anything, but if out of curiosity you want to understand my thoughts on the matter I would be happy to fully elucidate my position.

... if you want to engage in an informed debate this is acceptable as well, though since its of no consequence to me whether you accept or dismiss my notions I prefer not to get into heavy discussions involving simple disagreements, I would gladly clear up misunderstandings, but as far as argument goes I would rather agree to disagree.

-eg
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#44 Posted : 12/2/2016 3:19:15 PM
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Quote:
I truly dislike the term "after-life" because non-physical being, such as that occurs at death, is nothing like life, it's like the DMT flash, your ego becomes a blank slate (most describe this as "dissolving out of existance) everything about human life dissolves, your friends, your family, your name and personality and physical form, all dissolved, like a distant dream after waking, these things seem light years from the state you have currently reached, you have no physical body, I always get the sense that I have arms, and at times my residual human form brakes through, but all and all I have no physical body or physical form, then there's no time, this "zero time" state is so different from life that it's hard to even incorporate the concept into human thought, so no ego, no physical form, no time, no physical matter, no physics at all, and a complete disconnection from the physical form...I see all of these features as being analogous to what occurs when your conscious-being must leave it's physical shelter at death.

....aside from all of this, there's this intense feeling of deja-vu, I know that I have reached the state that is after death but before reincarnation, the between, I have the feeling that I have been there many times before, and there's no question as to where I am or what's happening...

***Again, it's impossible to convince others of these things, it's something that is outside of scientifical analysis, like the experiance of death itself it's personal, it occurs to you alone, and you must deal with it on your own, you can't reach back into the physical world for help, you friends and family on earth can't save you, you must face death alone, and incidentally you must learn about death and explore non-physical conscious states alone.***


-eg
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#45 Posted : 12/2/2016 3:39:52 PM
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http://skeptiko.com/rick...are-more-than-our-brain/
Doctor Rick. strassman is interviewed, this interview touches on the subject matter of this thread.

-eg





When consciousness is finally understood, it will mean that the absence of consciousness will be understood. The study of consciousness leads, inevitably, to the study of death. Death is both a historical and an individual phenomenon about which we, as monkeys, have great anxiety. But what the psychedelic experience seems to be pointing out is that actually the reductionist view of death has missed the point and that there is something more. Death isn't simple extinction. The universe does not build up such complex forms as ourselves without conserving them in some astonishing and surprising way that relates to the intuitions that we have from the psychedelic experience." Terence McKenna

Quote:
As the esoteric traditions say, life is an opportunity to prepare for death

ND: You have said that an important part of the mystical quest is to face up to death and recognize it as a rhythm of life. Would you like to enlarge on your view on the implications of the dying process?

TM: I take seriously the notion that these psychedelic states are an anticipation of the dying process-or, as the Tibetans refer to it, the Bardo level beyond physical death. It seems likely that our physical lives are a type of launching pad for the soul. As the esoteric traditions say, life is an opportunity to prepare for death, and we should learn to recognize the signposts along the way, so that when death comes, we can make the transition smoothly. I think the psychedelics show you the transcendental nature of reality. It would be hard to die gracefully as an atheist or existentialist. Why should you? Why not rage against the dying of the light? But if in fact this is not the dying of the light but the Dawning of the Great Light, then one should certainly not rage against that. There's a tendency in the New Age to deny death. We have people pursuing physical immortality and freezing their heads until the fifth millennium, when they can be thawed out. All of this indicates a lack of balance or equilibrium. The Tao flows through the realms of life and nonlife with equal ease.

ND: Do you personally regard the death process as a journey into one's own belief system?

TM: Like the psychedelic experience, death must be poured into the vessel of language. But dying is essentially physiological. It may be that there are certain compounds in the brain that are only released when it is impossible to reverse the dying process. And yet the near-death experience has a curious affinity to the shamanic voyage and the psychedelic experience.

I believe that the best map we have of consciousness is the shamanic map. According to this viewpoint, the world has a "center," and when you go to the center-which is inside yourself-there is a vertical axis that allows you to travel up or down. There are celestial worlds, there are infernal worlds, there are paradisiacal worlds. These are the worlds that open up to us on our shamanic journeys, and I feel we have an obligation to explore these domains and pass on that inforrnation to others interested in mapping the psyche. At this time in our history, it's perhaps the most awe-inspiring journey anyone could hope to make.

From an interview with Nevill Drury from the autumn 1990, vol. 11, no. 1, issue of the Australian magazine Nature and Health, and chapter 17 of The Archaic Revival by Terence McKenna.


-eg
 
Swayambhu
#46 Posted : 12/2/2016 8:42:04 PM

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entheogenic-gnosis wrote:

Again, I'm no "true believer" in this guy, but your argument against why he can't be telling the truth doesn't make any sense. So while I'm mostly playing devils advocate here, I still see this story as another piece of evidence to be considered when in the study of consciousness.


I didn't offer an argument as to why he wasn't telling the truth. That's perhaps why you are confused.
What I say is that he is either deluded or being deliberately misleading, presumably in order to sell books and talks, which appears to be what he does for a living.

entheogenic-gnosis wrote:
Ok, so You are saying: "in order for your physical brain to lose function, you must have previously been conscious, lost consciousness, then returned to consciousness" , do you see how you really did not say anything at all? This makes no sense.


It makes perfect sense, even if I did not write it particularly elegantly; In passing in and out of "brain death" this person's brain had ample time to formulate the impression of the experiences he believed himself to have had.
I am not denying the existence of anything, transpersonal consciousness or whatever, but in this case the obvious suggestion is that it was his dying brain, or perhaps his coming-back-to-life-brain that concocted these impressions, rather than that he actually went to heaven while his brain was dead.
 
5r
#47 Posted : 12/6/2016 8:36:33 PM

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No experience interprets itself, and no interpretation captures reality. Your poorly evolved ape brain interprets the experience, based on the limited linguistic and cultural structures that have taken root there. It's crucial to keep that basic epistemic principle in mind.

We should all be relentlessly skeptical of our own interpretations. The more persuasive an experience feels, the more skeptical I should be that I actually understood what happened to me. "Know" is a four letter word. We don't know shit.
 
BundleflowerPower
#48 Posted : 12/6/2016 9:18:31 PM

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5r wrote:
No experience interprets itself, and no interpretation captures reality. Your poorly evolved ape brain interprets the experience, based on the limited linguistic and cultural structures that have taken root there. It's crucial to keep that basic epistemic principle in mind.

We should all be relentlessly skeptical of our own interpretations. The more persuasive an experience feels, the more skeptical I should be that I actually understood what happened to me. "Know" is a four letter word. We don't know shit.


Yeah, but sometimes you just know it. And what it seems like is going on to me, when it comes to just knowing it at least, is that this stuff supercharges the feminine aspect of the mind, which leads to supercharged intuition. And this seems to last beyond just the time which one is having the experience.

As far as the original question goes, I'd say it's because of the overwhelming feeling one gets, that in the grand sceme of things, our little lives, and most what most consider important, isn't really that important. And if something so big and profound so as to cause that feeling exists within us, then it seems to me, there must be a lot more going on that what we suppose.
 
5r
#49 Posted : 12/6/2016 10:53:23 PM

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BundleflowerPower wrote:
5r wrote:
No experience interprets itself, and no interpretation captures reality. Your poorly evolved ape brain interprets the experience, based on the limited linguistic and cultural structures that have taken root there. It's crucial to keep that basic epistemic principle in mind.

We should all be relentlessly skeptical of our own interpretations. The more persuasive an experience feels, the more skeptical I should be that I actually understood what happened to me. "Know" is a four letter word. We don't know shit.


Yeah, but sometimes you just know it. And what it seems like is going on to me, when it comes to just knowing it at least, is that this stuff supercharges the feminine aspect of the mind, which leads to supercharged intuition. And this seems to last beyond just the time which one is having the experience.

As far as the original question goes, I'd say it's because of the overwhelming feeling one gets, that in the grand sceme of things, our little lives, and most what most consider important, isn't really that important. And if something so big and profound so as to cause that feeling exists within us, then it seems to me, there must be a lot more going on that what we suppose.

I guess it's the feeling of "just knowing" that I think we should bring into question. What's the difference between knowing, and being deceived but absolutely convinced?
 
BundleflowerPower
#50 Posted : 12/7/2016 1:30:55 AM

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[/quote]
I guess it's the feeling of "just knowing" that I think we should bring into question. What's the difference between knowing, and being deceived but absolutely convinced?[/quote]

Idk. That's a good point, from a reductionist point of view. And I respect that view. But, the thing is, reductionism relies solely on rational explanation. Dmt on the other hand, is totality enmeshed in irrationality, and synchronicity, which also isn't rational btw. But like I said, I respect your view, I used to have the same view, it's just that my experience since than requires a whole new hypothesis about what exactly is going on here, if it can even be exactly explained.

Humans are so tied to words and exact explinations. Sometimes it's best to just be and not explain anything, although that's not easy for me, after an experience, trying to explain what just happened to myself, but I think we're getting it, my self and I
 
BundleflowerPower
#51 Posted : 12/7/2016 2:11:19 AM

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I actually just smoked some cannabis and started thinking about whether or not I could go back to looking at the world and my mind in a way that would agree with a purely skeptical point of view. But then I realized that it I do already, it's just that it doesn't jive with modern science any longer. I think once science has the means, or at least focuses on the collective consciousness, all of this can be explained.. perhaps. But as it stands, this kind of work seems to be viewed as woo by most. Imo, science has hardly scratched the surface of consciousness. For example, it doesn't seem to occur to many people that all of our technology is a product of the mind. and if consciousness can create things like the Internet in physical reality, who knows what else it can do that we don't notice, like with intention, in the same way that karma is (or could be I suppose) like the energetic equivalent of normal material causality. I hope that made at least some sense
 
5r
#52 Posted : 12/7/2016 3:26:04 AM

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BundleflowerPower wrote:
Idk. That's a good point, from a reductionist point of view. And I respect that view. But, the thing is, reductionism relies solely on rational explanation. Dmt on the other hand, is totality enmeshed in irrationality, and synchronicity, which also isn't rational btw. But like I said, I respect your view, I used to have the same view, it's just that my experience since than requires a whole new hypothesis about what exactly is going on here, if it can even be exactly explained.

Humans are so tied to words and exact explinations. Sometimes it's best to just be and not explain anything, although that's not easy for me, after an experience, trying to explain what just happened to myself, but I think we're getting it, my self and I

I'm not sure what I said that made you think I was a reductionist, but that's not where I'm coming from at all. I think we actually agree a bit more than it seems.

I'm not really espousing any view. I'm just saying it's foolish to be certain of any view. All I'm advocating for is epistemic humility when it comes to our own certainty.
 
Psybin
#53 Posted : 12/7/2016 4:34:58 AM

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I personally think the reason the DMT world seems more real than reality is because it's such an intensely stimulating event, and recent research has shown that how stimulated we are be something determines how real we perceive it to be.

https://www.sciencedaily...2016/10/161025114808.htm
 
BundleflowerPower
#54 Posted : 12/7/2016 4:40:55 AM

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5r wrote:
BundleflowerPower wrote:
Idk. That's a good point, from a reductionist point of view. And I respect that view. But, the thing is, reductionism relies solely on rational explanation. Dmt on the other hand, is totality enmeshed in irrationality, and synchronicity, which also isn't rational btw. But like I said, I respect your view, I used to have the same view, it's just that my experience since than requires a whole new hypothesis about what exactly is going on here, if it can even be exactly explained.

Humans are so tied to words and exact explinations. Sometimes it's best to just be and not explain anything, although that's not easy for me, after an experience, trying to explain what just happened to myself, but I think we're getting it, my self and I

I'm not sure what I said that made you think I was a reductionist, but that's not where I'm coming from at all. I think we actually agree a bit more than it seems.

I'm not really espousing any view. I'm just saying it's foolish to be certain of any view. All I'm advocating for is epistemic humility when it comes to our own certainty.


I'm sorry. I didn't intend it like that.

I'm pretty uncertain as well. The only thing I'd say I'm certain of, is that it does mean something, at least to me
 
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