DMT-Nexus member
 
Posts: 12340 Joined: 12-Nov-2008 Last visit: 02-Apr-2023 Location: pacific
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I smoked some leaves and bark a while ago and got effects similar to smoking caapi leaf. Pretty much the same effect. Not saying it is safe but I was okay and that's how I tested it. Brainography. Perform brainography at your own risk. Long live the unwoke.
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LUVR
Posts: 1331 Joined: 24-Aug-2010 Last visit: 17-Jan-2024 Location: Thither
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The only problem is I seem to have a thick skin when it comes to harmine at least. I definitely can't feel effects from smoking caapi leaf alone, I usually don't start feeling vaped harmine on top of caapi until I've had around two big bowls full, and even then it is very subtle. I'm assuming this stuff will be much more potent than pure harmine, but I'm not sure I want to be smoking large amounts just yet...we'll see. At any rate, if I do decide to give it a whirl, is my reasoning correct and I should start off by testing the lovely looking powder rather than the black death tar? 'Little spider weaves a wispy web, stumblin' through the woods it catches to my head. She crawls behind my ear and whispers secrets. Dragonfly whiz by and sings now teach it.'
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Boundary condition
 
Posts: 8617 Joined: 30-Aug-2008 Last visit: 07-Nov-2024 Location: square root of minus one
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blueshake wrote:I chewed 7 Elaeagnus angustifolia seeds, and it's got pretty antidepressant effect. It's 5-6 hours long. I've got dysthymia and it's pretty good for it(I'm not taking any medication for it), and I certainly feel MAOI-A effect; this serotonin effect with a bit of noradrenaline and a touch of dopamine  . Im not sure if it's lowering my blood pressure(normally it's around 140/85 - light hypertension) I'll check it tomorrow (imidazoline - 1 agonism, a mark of harmane action). I think that all harmala alkaloids should be transferred to the seed coating, like in syrian rue case. 500+ E. angustifolia seeds arrived today. Experiments will ensue both for activity of the seeds/seed coats and how well this plant might grow on a damp island in north west Europe. Does anyone have anything about chemical analysis of the seeds? “There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." ― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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Boundary condition
Posts: 8617 Joined: 30-Aug-2008 Last visit: 07-Nov-2024 Location: square root of minus one
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So I chewed one large E. angustifolia seed 15 minutes ago. I had to break it apart with pliers at first in order to preserve my teeth. I feel a definite slight mood lift with a relaxed edge. And I'm pretty sensitive to these things, in case you wondered. “There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." ― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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Boundary condition
Posts: 8617 Joined: 30-Aug-2008 Last visit: 07-Nov-2024 Location: square root of minus one
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Here's some general info about this remarkable plant from Plants for a Future “There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." ― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 259 Joined: 08-Oct-2010 Last visit: 06-May-2024 Location: Gallifrey
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Ambivalent wrote:ok, and what are your routes of administration and in what form do you ingest it ? the freebase which i have is inactive when ingested. when tried sublingually it hardly dissolves in my mouth, its like having sand. are you saying that your freebase extract has different characteristics ? I'm bumping this thread because I just wanted to point out that Felnik is not using freebase alkaloids. He salted out the alkaloids ala Manske tek, so he has the hydrochloride form. Maybe your alkaloids don't seem active because freebase forms tend to be less suitable for oral and sublingual use. Freebase harmala alkaloids aren't soluble in water which can make it them more difficult to absorb. Smoking would be a better route if you have freebase. Or just acidify the freebase to produce a salt form. I hope to be working with russian olive in the coming spring. Maybe even earlier. I just need to find some trees that I can collect from. Russian grows like crazy along many freeways in my area, but they are hard to access and might not be the healthiest choice. I've also seen single trees in people's front yards, but I'm reluctant to collect from these as it would be suspicious and I don't want to damage their property. Maay-yo-naze!
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1760 Joined: 15-Apr-2008 Last visit: 06-Mar-2024 Location: in the Forest
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Powerfulmeducine I'm sure if it's along the highways it will be everywhere . Try and find an Empty lot someplace or along a river or stream. Workable material should be easy to find The tree actually will self destruct itself once it reaches a certain age by putting out low branches that Become too heavy to support . A grove of them will have plenty of dead branches all around the bases Of the trees . Each tree puts out an obscene amount Of seeds each season . It grows very fast and will spread in an area in a Very short time . They are literally everywhere in my area . I still don't understand why More people haven't tried a simple mansk Salt extraction . It yields a small amount of brown powder that is incredibly Synergistic with spice. It really don't understand why more people have not Worked with this. The potential is huge . It's not caapi but it's extremely interesting In its own right and I still believe it's an untapped amazing plant teacher. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. Arthur C. Clarke http://vimeo.com/32001208
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 259 Joined: 08-Oct-2010 Last visit: 06-May-2024 Location: Gallifrey
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Russian olive actually isn't everywhere in my area thankfully. I've been looking for a few years now (although I haven't looked particularly hard). I live in an urban area, but with a lot of parks and forest preserves. Around here, russian olive is rarely planted as a yard tree and I've never seen it in empty lots. The forest preserves are actually relatively high quality and surprisingly undisturbed. Russian Olive hasn't invaded the forest closest to my house yet, although buckthorn can be a problem in some places. I'm just gonna have to keep looking. Right now I'm thinking that train tracks and old railroad right-of-ways will likely be my best bet for finding easily accessible trees. Maay-yo-naze!
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nanite
Posts: 25 Joined: 01-Jul-2011 Last visit: 17-Jun-2022 Location: Somewhere between the worlds...
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I extracted bark from sea-buckthorn which also contains harmalas, more than oleasters probably. Bark was harvested during dusk for best alkaloid content.
Tannin content was reduced with gelatin tek (though egg whites would have been easier to clean up) - IMHO this is a must-be for plants from oleaster family, they have a lot of different tannins from different types.
Tried to reduce it with sodium carbonate/bicarbonate (pH around 10,5 so I think it isn't enough; bicarbonate wasn't fully converted) but that didn't work.
Freezed it to get out most of tanned gelatin in the form of brown goo. Filtered and added sodium hydroxide to raise the pH, nothing happened. After few hours something precipitated looking like very small gliterry crystals.
There isn't much of it and it's possible that during the extraction some of harmalas precipitated, and I accidentally discarded them... Will try to clean them from the rest of the solution, and post a pic then.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 372 Joined: 29-Sep-2009 Last visit: 15-Feb-2024 Location: Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
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Re-reading this thread got me excited about the plant all over again. I'm not in one of the blue or purple states, and in fact can grow caapi quite successfully here. As far as I can determine E. augustifolia doesn't occur here except as a rare ornamental, and I've lived in this area for 16 years. Nevertheless... Today I happened upon a first class mom-and-pop nursery in a neighboring city and guess what they had in stock? I came away with a nice specimen in a five gallon pot for eleven bucks as well as a few nice Delospermas and some Mimosa strigulosa. Now I just need to find a spot on my humble 1/4 acre to accomodate it.  So thanks for piquing my interest guys. Will post any results I get once it grows out to the point where I can work with it. I already asked Alice.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1760 Joined: 15-Apr-2008 Last visit: 06-Mar-2024 Location: in the Forest
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Keep in mind that this plant is considered invasive In some states I'm surprised someone is actually selling it . It's absolutely everywhere in my area. That being said good luck with it . The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. Arthur C. Clarke http://vimeo.com/32001208
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 372 Joined: 29-Sep-2009 Last visit: 15-Feb-2024 Location: Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
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I live in the land of invasive exotics (peninsular Deep South) and the plant is not listed as invasive by the state, nor do we show up on any range map for the plant. There must be something in the climate here that prevents it from roaming, probably the long hot humid summers. And the people at the nursery said it's not a big seller anyway. So I think I'm OK planting it out. Besides I think we need more than just one or two voices on the subject and growing my own seems to be my only option at this point, unless somebody want to mail me some dried material. The potential of Eleagnus as a harmala source is huge and if your experience proves to be typical it could be the solution the aya analog movement has been seeking for many years. I already asked Alice.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 66 Joined: 03-Sep-2011 Last visit: 03-Jan-2020 Location: Somewhere
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Please repost link(the link is broken) and I will attach the article.
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 07-Nov-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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Delving back into some research on this species, I found the following writeup on reddit, originating from a post on shroomery: Quote:
Elaeagnus derived harmala powder
Materials
mature Elaeagnus angustifolia bark/rootbark
Distilled H2O
HCl
NaOH (can be substituted with NH4)
Boiling vessel
(atleast 2) Glass or ceramic reaction vessels
Separatory funnel or high capacity syringe
Non-reactive stirrer
Evaporation tray
Process
1. I gathered about 5 lbs worth of young shoots and dead branches from a Russian olive in my backyard. Though leaves and fruits could technically be used, like ayahuasca, I hypothesize that the alkaloids occur in much greater concentrations within the bark. The tree I used was too young for me to be able to strip bark from, unlike older specimens which can donate their old skin just fine. The branches just barely yielded a single active dose, so it definitely seems that mature bark, or root bark if possible, will generate the greatest payout for one's efforts. I consider there to be too many essential oils and fats found in the flowers, leaves,and fruits to merit their use in extraction.
2. Branches were chopped finely(shredded would be preferable) and placed in a 7 quart pot. A solution of water and 10% HCl was poured into the pot to cover plant material, then boiled for 30 minutes. Liquid was filtered and decanted into a separate container, and fresh acidified solution was added to the pot to extract the plant matter another two times.
3. Combined liquid from extracts was then concentrated to 400mL by boiling, pH adjusted to the lowside of 3 with addition of HCl.
4. I didn't have NaOH on hand, so I substituted it with NH4. Shot glass volumes were slowly stirred into solution until alkaloid precipitation was clearly visible. This was let to settle.
5. As soon as you want, liquid is separated from precipitate to be discarded into second reaction vessel.
6a. Add distilled H2O to precipitate, stir, discard liquid to the previous second reaction vessel. Repeat this step until the precipitate washes run clear.
6b. Allow discarded solution to settle for 12 hours to turn up additional precipitate, and discard liquid. The spent liquid may be saved to repeat the settling process again and again until no more alkaloids precipitate.
7. Add about 50mL of 10% HCl solution to the precipitate to convert the freebase harmalas to a hydrochloride salt, readily dissolving into the liquid. Dilute solution with an additional 150mL distilled H2O, and allow all particulates to settle. Separate and save liquid, remaining solids can be disposed of.
8. NH4 slowly stirred into liquid until precipitation becomes apparent. Do not overbasify. This solution should be allowed to settle for at least 12 hours.
9. Precipitate should be clearly separated within the solution at this point, discard cloudy liquid to second reaction vessel. 200mL water is added to wash the precipitate, the process mirroring steps 6a & 6b. Repeat until solution's pH measure 7-8.
10. Separate precipitate from liquid, and spread out in evaporation tray in front of a fan, until dry. My extract turned out reddish-tan, lightening with age.
Yields should be weighed with a milligram scale, for accuracy.
I only came out with 200mg, just enough to feel the harmala alkaloids effect me. My bioassay was enough to give me a newfound respect for a tree that is so often looked upon by land managers with disdain. This right here is an Ayahuasca analogue that grows abundantly across America.
I have not yet tried this extract in combination with DMT, but its effects suggest that it will work marvelously.
I plan on repeating the process with mature bark, next time, as well as use NaOH instead of NH4. I performed this particular extraction way back in April and failed to photodocument it, but keep an eye out for an updated tek complete with photos, whenever I get around to sourcing some thick bark from my neighbors.
It appears at least one person has had success with a standard a/b extraction. However the reported yield was quite low, only about 200 mg out of 5 lbs of material (about .009%). This is significantly less than the expected yield from the bark of a mature tree (.2%), as reported in net lore, which as far as I can tell all originally traces back to Dr. Dukes Database. I suspect many of the failures reported previously with a/b extraction in this and other threads may be the result of a combination of inadequate amounts of starting material and inflated expectations set by vastly higher yielding B. caapi and P. harmala extractions. With such low yields this falls alongside phalaris in the "the result is not really worth the effort" category, what with other sources such P. harmala being readily available. Still, it's promising to see someone succeed with this species and know that it is a viable (if impractical) option.
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 07-Nov-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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Considering the lack of success and repeatability others have encountered using the standard A/B and Manske extraction methods, I decided to take a different approach in my research. Starting material was 861.1 grams of Elaeagnus angustifolia bark. Bark was a mixture of mostly lower trunk bark with some root bark, consisting of a healthy balance of both inner and outer bark layers. (Note: this bark was harvested from a large mature tree that had been uprooted by a construction company, even if they are invasive, please don't damage living trees.) Material was left in large chunks and boiled 3 x 1 hour boils using fresh filtered water for each boil. All boils were combined and the water was reduced to a thick black resin. The resin was mixed with a spoonful of pickling lime (Calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2) and rehydrated with a small amount of distilled water to make a paste. The paste was allowed to dry out overnight under a fan. The dried paste was not so much pulled with, as dissolved into 91% rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol, propan-2-ol). The alcohol was filtered through a funnel containing a coffee filter with a cotton plug in the bottom leaving a nice clear golden-brown solution. The solution was evaporated overnight under a fan leaving an orange-brown goo. The orange-brown goo was sprinkled with a few pinches of vitamin c (Ascorbic acid) and dissolved into a minimal amount of distilled water, creating a nice orange-brown solution. This solution was again filtered through the funnel containing a fresh coffee filter and cotton plug. The filtered solution was again left to evaporate overnight under a fan resulting in a nice orange goo. At this point the material is of sufficient quality for oral ingestion. However I wanted to proceed further and convert the material to a freebase for both a moar accurate yield and the ability to smoke the resulting product. The orange goo was mixed with a few pinches of pickling lime (Calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2) and a small amount of water was added. While the water had no trouble dissolving the lime, it had little effect upon the goo and no basing reaction was noted. The goo dissolved fairly well into the water with a little agitation. This lime/water/goo mixture was allowed to dry out overnight under a fan, the presence of the lime had no noticeable effect on the look or consistency of the goo. The dried goo-lime mixture was then submerged into a minimal amount of 91% rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol, propan-2-ol), into which it was only very slightly and extremely poorly soluble, even with extensive agitation. Having failed to get the orange goo to dissolve into the alcohol, the alcohol was allowed to evaporate off of the mixture overnight under the fan. This again yielded the original orange lime-goo mixture. To make sure all traces of lime and alcohol were removed, the material was again sprinkled with a few pinches of vitamin c (Ascorbic acid) and dissolved into a minimal amount of distilled water. The resulting orange solution was again filtered through a fresh incarnation of the funnel filter apparatus and allowed to evaporate for a day and a night under a fan yielding a nice fairly translucent orange jelly (photo attached). 6 grams of jelly was yielded from the original 861.1 grams of material giving a respectable total yield of approximately .7% alkaloids. While the material is obviously impure, a small taste test informs the pallet that it is rich with bitter alkaloids. Bio-assay results to follow. dreamer042 attached the following image(s):  Elagoo.jpg (1,432kb) downloaded 267 time(s).
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1760 Joined: 15-Apr-2008 Last visit: 06-Mar-2024 Location: in the Forest
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That's some process wow ! Keep us posted The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. Arthur C. Clarke http://vimeo.com/32001208
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 306 Joined: 04-Mar-2012 Last visit: 11-Oct-2024 Location: temperate dweller
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It's very promising to see a few bioassays with this plant- and hearing reports of only typical harmala effects. I've become worried that 2-methylated harmalas could be neurotoxic similar to MPP+ since reading a paper titled Mitochondrial respiratory inhibition by N-methylated beta-carboline derivatives structurally resembling N-methyl-4-phenylpyridine. http://www.pnas.org/content/87/23/9368.shortI suppose we still don't know the role of 2-methyltetrahydrobetacarboline (2-MTHBC) found in spice extracts and the cyclization product of dmt, except that it doesn't seem harmful in small doses. I suppose if people are taking Elaeagnus and not getting Alzheimer's the likes of MPP+ that says something.
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member for the trees
Posts: 4003 Joined: 28-Jun-2011 Last visit: 27-May-2024
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yeah fantastic report dreamer042! kerelsk, the various not very well understood betacarbolines in smaller amounts in a number of species (phalaris, acacia etc), and which are often tryptamine cyclisation products, have been speculated on as having the possibility of quite potent effects, and yes so far the anecdotal bio assay evidence shows no sign of harm.. the parkinsons symptom studies are counter balanced or contradicted by studies of various betacarbolines from raisins and tobacco smoke condensate, which indicate potential positive health effects - see https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=26860 and elsewhere.. this is great research..autumn olive is a quiet mysterious rising achiever of a power plant, i'd like to know what it's 'shamanic' or traditional name(s) are.. .
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 07-Nov-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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Experiment #1Prep: 400 mg of Russian Olive extract jelly was dissolved in 4 ml of spring water and put into an oral syringe for easy dosing. Later on in the evening 20 mg of DMT fumarate extract from Acacia confusa (fairly well separated from goo/NMT) was dissolved into around 2 ml of spring water. A light dinner of kitchari was consumed a couple hours prior to beginning the experiment. It should be noted the subject is on the sensitive end of the harmine/harmaline dosing spectrum with 150 mg full spectrum rue extract being a strong fully inhibiting dose. T + 0:00 - Ingested 1 ml(100 mg) of Russian Olive extract solution with a bit of water to help it down. Taste is bitter but not unpalatable, tastes very much like the cooking bark smells, very earthy and similar to caapi but also distinctive and unique. T + 0:15 - First alert, distinctive harmala effects noticed and begin building rapidly. T + 0:30 - Effects are readily apparent but fairly mild on par with ~50 mg syrian rue freebase extract. Light body load, dreamy meditative headspace, lucid flowing thought processes. Another 1 ml (100 mg) Russian Olive extract is ingested with a water chaser. T + 0:45 - Effects are slightly moar pronounced than previously, second dose is beginning to first alert. Effects on par with ~ 75 mg of freebase rue extract and building rapidly. Another 1 ml (100 mg) Russian Olive extract is ingested with a water chaser. T + 1:15 - Harmala effects very pronounced. Strong body load and feeling very dreamy and relaxed. "Mentally lubricated" with thoughts flowing smoothly and rapidly unfolding into multiple streams. Notice myself returning to lucidity from time to time having been off on various thought streams. Slightest hints of cev effects beginning behind closed eyelids. Effects on par with 100+ mg freebase rue extract. Another .5 ml (50 mg) Russian Olive extract ingested with 1 ml (10 mg) Acacia confusa extract with water chaser. T + 1:20 - Another .5 ml (50 mg) Russian Olive extract ingested with 1 ml (10 mg) Acacia confusa extract with water chaser. T + 1:45 - Harmala effects are at full strength and very pleasant, quite euphoric. Looking for DMT effects but nothing beyond some tummy rumbling and slightly increased euphoria is noted. T + 2:00 - Harmala effects going strong, no tryptamine effects to speak of were noted. Eat a dragonfruit to see if kickstarting the digestion may kick in effects. T + 2:45 - Harmala effects still going, but mostly levelled off and quickly winding down. No DMT effects were noted. Next experiment Russian Olive extract will be dosed all at once together with the Acacia extract. Stay tuned.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 306 Joined: 04-Mar-2012 Last visit: 11-Oct-2024 Location: temperate dweller
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Awesome, awesome, dreamoar  Investigating, I find more credence for the safety profile of Elaeagnus spp. Here's three papers that support the traditional medicine usage of these bushes. A comprehensive review on phytochemical and pharmacological aspects of Elaeagnus angustifolia L."Elaeagnus angustifolia L., commonly known as oleaster or Russian olive, is used worldwide as a traditional natural remedy or nutritional agent for the management of a wide range of illnesses. [...] Modern scientific investigations suggest that the plant possesses a broad spectrum of pharmacological and therapeutic effects, including antimicrobial, insecticidal, antioxidant, anti-arthritic, wound healing, cardioprotective, hypolipidemic, antinociceptive, anti-inflammatory, antimutagenic, antitumour and gastroprotective activity. [...] E. angustifolia possesses a wide variety of indications in traditional and folklore medicine of different nations. In addition, a wide range of pharmacological and biological activity has been reported for this species."
Phytochemical study of the bark of some plants of the Elaeagnaceae family as a natural source of β-carboline indole alkaloids"Bark of seabuckthorn (Hippophaë rhamnoides L.) and Elaeagnus spp. is used in folk medicine of Central and Southeastern Asia as tinctures, decoctions, and powders to relieve depression and improve temperament [1]." This paper also includes a table that shows E. angustifolia to contain 0.021% 2-Me-THBC and 0.005% 2-Me-tetrahydroharmol, while E. umbellata has no reported 2-Me-THBC and trace amounts of 2-Me-tetrahydroharmol. Antibacterial activity of Elaeagnus umbellata (Thunb.) a medicinal plant from Pakistan."Most of the extracts displayed broad-spectrum activity, since gram positive bacteria including S. aureus, B. subtilis and gram-negative bacteria including E. coli and P. aeruginosa were inhibited. These preliminary findings may provide the basis for traditional use of this plant in the treatment of infectious diseases."
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