Of course we can only ever "know" anything relatively so it makes no sense to speak of objective truth.

The issue with people believing in karma is how likely they are to make inferences based on how common one occurrence could be linked with another.

For instance, you sell a bicycle to someone knowing that the inner tubing has had it and will pop very soon. You do it knowingly because you want to money. The next week your own tire pops on your own bicycle. Any rational person would put two and two together but there are overly rational scientific atheist types who don't want to draw conclusions like that anymore, even when it is incredibly more evident than that bicycle example they will still refuse to believe anything unless it is tangible. I think that is just plain silly and sort of 'pulling the wool over your own eyes" just for the sake of being sophisticated and methodical. There as bad as Christians I tell you.

I believe in karma. Everything bad I've done it the past came out during my psychotic break.

I have a blank slate now, so everything I do is that much more important (I can clearly feel the effects of negative thoughts and actions now...it completely changed my life).

That's not what I was saying at all.

I was explaining how ego, attachment, and desire was causing a small group of monks to suffer, and that by a simple reexamination of their core principles this suffering could easily be stopped.

-eg

The differences between "western" and "eastern" views on karma are minimal in my opinion.

The origin of the word karma is derived from the Sanskrit "karman" which meams "action, effect, and fate", and while action is a key aspect of karma, you cannot neglect the other definitions of the word, which bring it into proper perspective.

Karma originated from a word meaning "action, effect, and fate", yet the word karma was further defined in the traditions of the east to take on more specific implications.

Below are some definitions of karma, which you should also keep in mind means different things to different people, I'm not very enthused about these definitions, but they carry across the basic point.





-eg

Karma is simple, it's cause and effect. The word itself means /action/. Nothing more, nothing less.

The problem is that we are not capable of seeing our past conditions clearly, so when something happens, we do not understand why. We think we did not "deserve" it, but that is not the case either. Everything that has ever happened to you, good or bad (good and bad are just interpreted by you as egoic identity and has nothing to do with what you really are which exists outside of duality) happened because of your past actions.

So when we say who is the judge? There's no judge. There's just your actions and the effects of those actions. The Buddha explained it thus:

"These four types of kamma have been understood, realized, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result; kamma that is bright with bright result; kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result; and kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.

"And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious bodily fabrication... an injurious verbal fabrication... an injurious mental fabrication... He rearises in an injurious world where he is touched by injurious contacts... He experiences feelings that are exclusively painful, like those of the beings in hell. This is called kamma that is dark with dark result.

"And what is kamma that is bright with bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an uninjurious bodily fabrication... an uninjurious verbal fabrication... an uninjurious mental fabrication... He rearises in an uninjurious world where he is touched by uninjurious contacts... He experiences feelings that are exclusively pleasant, like those of the Ever-radiant Devas. This is called kamma that is bright with bright result.

"And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a mental fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... He rearises in an injurious & uninjurious world where he is touched by injurious & uninjurious contacts... He experiences injurious & uninjurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result.

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? The intention right there to abandon this kamma that is dark with dark result... this kamma that is bright with bright result... this kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."

The Buddha, the blessed One, made use of his insight into the nature of cause and effect and was capable of seeing the immensity of effects from our actions. Looking into thousands of past lives one can gather how beings are destined to certain fates due to the action of karma. Buddha awoke to dependent origination/arising (http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/tp/twelvelinks.htm) and realized the fate of specific types of actions.

This is the principle on which I base my "discusion" in the "A matter of focus" thread.



Based on this chain of entanglements, each of us holds/is the power (for any change) by watching her/his own steps.

tseuq

So, are you saying that everyone are responsible for what happens to them?
Even small children?

I cannot speak for Sherlockian, but I would say yes in their own experience this is true. But from your perspective you are responsible for everything that happens to them as it is part of your experience. And from my point of view I am responsible for all that happens to all of you.

Once you get your head around general relativity, this sort of stuff is easy to rationalise .

The above therefore has no moral paradox, since although we appear to share realities we actually live each in our own to which we each are fully responsible for everything in it as we perceive it.

I speak as if it were fact, but indeed this is just the insane ramblings of my ego - but my inner self seems to be nodding. (That should be my sig, going to adjust it now)

No, I do not think karma is a sane and compassionate idea for the following reasons:

I like what she says as it resonates with my experiences. I have no conscious memory of death, but the value system and the nature of the "non-physical me" as I experience it (with and without chemical help) seem consistent.

I would say though, you sound like you believe it because she said it. Her statement is not enough to warrant belief any more that any statement that anyone else makes. Listen to all, but search your experience and judge by how well it matches. By all means believe (as I do), but doubt those beliefs always.

Thing is that most beliefs limit our potential, and limit the size of our reality. So I suppose I tend to choose always non-limiting beliefs, and Karma in its "Do bad, get bad" form is limiting. It says there is fate and you must suffer, and as a basic interpretation offers no exit from that.

Thank you ☺
I like your answer and signature!
My belief is a little different though. I believe that the reigning force on this planet is chaos and that what happens has to do with past actions, but they happen without any meaning what so ever.

Karma is as real as conditioning.

If you believe past actions determine your experience, then they will. So I'm not disagreeing with you.

And others believe they cannot have happiness because the have caused negative things in the past or in a past life. I am sure this will prevent them being happy.

Limiting beliefs will limit.

"Karma" is a very old concept that spans across many cultures, lands and time, and it means many things to many people. The core concept seems relatively unchanged, however the variations and subjectivities incorporated into the term are as varied as the many cultures and peoples that have used it.

To me, karma is an obvious and observable intrinsic part of the nature of existance, but then again I have done quite a bit of research, and listened to quite a few peoples personal opinions, and over time have formed a very defined notion of what the core concept of karma means.

-eg

Absolutely.

From the Long Discourses of Buddha, on the fruits of the contemplative life, read:

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. Just as if there were a tall building in the central square [of a town], and a man with good eyesight standing on top of it were to see people entering a house, leaving it, walking along the street, and sitting in the central square. The thought would occur to him, 'These people are entering a house, leaving it, walking along the streets, and sitting in the central square.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma..."

The whole spiritual Path is about burning up remnant karma at an accelerated rate, creating merit by doing good deeds and through cultivation work (to work opposite of karma) when one is finally enlightened, one will burn the final remnants of karma away, and finally be completely free. Know that our True Nature is hidden behind then mask of every being, but due to our attachment and clinging on, like a broken record, we cling on.

The whole Path, whether it is Buddhism, Daoism, Islam, Christianity, Kabbalah or whatever else spiritual tradition you can think about... it's about realizing who you are right now so you move outside the five skandhas into pure liberation. There are many realms one can go to after death. Many heavens and many hells, but they're all within samsara, meaning they're all based on a degree of time and one will take birth and have death again. Only when all the fetters are cut will you be fully free.

The video posted is really only about life-themes: but that is still within karma. It is true that the enlightened nature is outside of karma: but so long as we cling and have attachments and fetters, we are still bound by karma. So strive well to realize the dharmakaya (your enlightened nature) and there will be no need to take further birth out of compulsiveness. One will have freedom of choice.

This is wrong understanding of karma. Experiencing karma does not necessarily mean suffering. Remember, suffering is something that happens within you, that is translated and perceived by you as suffering. By filling oneself with the divine principles of joy and bliss from withdrawal of the senses, residing in the awareness, one can go through karmas without any degree of actual suffering.

It is also not true that there is no exit from suffering. The whole Noble Eightfold Path or the Eight Limbs of Yoga, or the many, many other spiritual paths work on exactly that problem. The Path to the cessation of suffering.

I think it is nothing new to most of you guys, in my opinion, suffering is something we create and keep holding on in every now. In the now, I can "only" recieve pain and suffering is the result of my subjective interpretion of what this pain/happening means to me, in my life.

Like acaian wrote in the "First dmt exp..who are the entities trying to 'alter' us?!" thread, same with suffering:


In the context of "I", in the story of my little self, where rigid ideas determine the way to happieness, I can never be happy again and die lonely after a poor and sad stuggle of hopeless survival, called life. .. if holding on to this idea, well yeah, that is possible.

tseuq

Great reply.

I was going to.respond to this yesterday, but was tired and had other work to do, you did a better job of articulating what I was going to say any way.

-eg

I have always thought it was strange that the first Nobel truth basically says "you can not avoid suffering" while the last Nobel truth states that "suffering can be avoided through the 8-fold path"

...and while this is accurate, these are true statements, I have always just thought it sounded strange on the surface. I mean when you dig into these concepts it all makes perfect sense, but on the surface it looks funny.

Four Noble Truths
1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path

---

-eg

Remember that these are translations. I think sometimes dukkha is better translated as unsatisfactoriness. This is perhaps a better explanation of the Four Noble Truths:

1. Dukkha, "incapable of satisfying," painful. Life in this "mundane world," with its craving and clinging to impermanent states and things, is dukkha, unsatisfactory and painful.

2. Samudaya, the origination or arising of dukkha. Dukkha, and repeated life in this world, arises with taṇhā, "thirst," craving for and clinging to these impermanent states and things. This craving and clinging produces karma which leads to renewed becoming, keeping us trapped in rebirth and renewed dissatisfaction.

3. Niroda, the cessation of dukkha. By stopping this craving and clinging nirvana is attained, no more karma is produced, and rebirth and dissatisfaction will no longer arise again.

4. Magga, the path to the cessation of, or liberation from dukkha. By following the Noble Eightfold Path, restraining oneself, cultivating discipline, and practicing mindfulness and meditation, craving and clinging will be stopped, and rebirth and dissatisfaction are ended.

There will always be suffering/stress/unsatisfactoriness in impermanent things. Desires are part of the ego, and the ego is a raging fire that constantly wants wood to feed itself. There is no limit for how big the ego can become, so that's why your desires will never bring fulfillment. You can never put out a fire by feeding it wood.

Only by realizing the dharmakaya is the Deathless found.

In the Buddha's words, the Four Noble Truths stated thus:

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is this noble eightfold path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.