Ok, no misinformation about "shamanism" is good , but please dont start spreading around misinformation about the psytrance scene.... (with all respect Chan, you make it look like every psytrancer is just a untrustable wannabe).

People fucked up on psytrance.
People got healing and/or mystic experiences with psytrance (i have, others have...)
Set and setting and intent (like in "shamanism" play a big role.

I met so many wonderful people on my nearly 20 years lasting journey on the psytrance path , authentic people, psycedelic people,spiritual people... .For me its the cultural meeting point for people like "us" .
(i also met people who just want to "do drugs" or beeing close minded, its not all well defined sunshine ...)



edit: sorry for the overreaction, i get it now...

Offtopic:

InLaKesh wrote:

.. you make it look like every psytrancer is just a untrustable wannabe.

Haha.. I find the picture pretty funny and a feedback from my side, I don't see chans post as an offence. In my experience, the emergence of "(wannabe) shamans/healers" [Who am I to evaluate the skills/knowledge of someone I don't know? BTW my knowledge about shamanism is like 0] seems to be much higher in the psy-trance than in the f.e. business informatics, punk rock, emo or concept car scene.

Hm.. but .. I am not really into this business-punk rock-emo-car thingy, so maybe I am wrong.

Psy on!

tseuq

The psytrance scene is it's own hedonistic collective. It's got nothing to do with Amazonian Curandismo, if that's what you're thinking.

I agree! I know a few people that claim to be shamans that have never been trained by one and it really bothers me . Some people are just really, really dumb. I almost feel sorry for them ..

The problem is, when you say 'shaman' to refer to an Ayahuasquero, you are conflating two, completely distinct cultural icons and kind of out yourself as someone who doesn't know a whole lot about either. If that sounds pedantic to you, that's probably because you're not a member of either community - given the degree to which Indigenous cultures all over the world have been exploited, colonized, and abused by Western powers, I would say that basic compassion dictates that we as Westerners (or other members of the developed world), the least we can do is work within the cultural frameworks that they've laid down.

I'm less interested in the terminology of a bunch of old white academic men and more interested in how Indigenous cultures speak about themselves.



It's not at all about elitism, it's about working where you are with the people around you. If my goal is to help an elder person in the United States who is suffering from End of Life anxiety, it makes the most sense, and is most respectful to them, to work within the framework that they know and are comfortable with.

If our hypothetical elder is Christian, it would be rude for me to sit them down and say: "yes, I know your time is short and you are suffering, but instead of talking about Jesus and God and other things that you find comforting and familiar, instead, I'm going to induce a whole bunch of Tibetan terminology that you have no understanding of or context for and just trust me because I'm 'spiritual.'

That's not compassionate help, that's masturbation .

You should center the needs of the people you're trying to help in your practice, it's not about you and what you find beautiful or interesting, it's about them.

Don't steal culture from colonized Indigenous peoples so you can sell it (or force it down the throats) of Westerners who won't really get it. Figure out what the Westerners WILL get and start incorporating psychedelic wisdom from there.

Blessings
~ND

Here is my inexpert opinion.

A Shaman is a term to help identify someone by the kind of life they live. Just like an artist or an outdoor guide, its not so much a profession as it is a predisposition to a way of life. I don't think one actively goes out to become a shaman. I feel like its probably one of those things where you live your life a certain way, and one day people start calling you a shaman. Maybe no one ever gives it a formal title, including yourself, but you just are one by the fact that there is no other good term to describe the way that you live.

People can claim they are shaman, and maybe some of them are, but the act of proclaiming oneself a shaman doesn't mean much. If anything it probably detracts from itself.

I believe the universe decides who the shaman will be. I don't think anyone has to consciously decide to be one, they must just live their life in line with what they know and believe.

Its not purely hedonistic , its a mix. But it has nothing to do with Amazonian Curandismo , maybe you can find people to talk about this topic there.

Sorry for overreacting on this JackSparrowPsytrancer pic , back to topic .

I feel like we may be bashing heads here a little, the key point I thought was relevant was cultural integration, using archaic language does not fall into those categories.



The above quote could guide said person in helping the dying elder. Even thought none of said peoples are Daoists, or even Chinese the wisdom of the passage resonates past physical barriers that we constantly throw up.

Tibetans never came up with Buddhism it was brought over from India, same as Christianity, it started in Jerusalem. Just because water falls from the sky does not mean we all can't drink it.

To make a relevant post to the OP, as I have grossly digressed, becoming a 'shaman' from a western background is IMO as ND just said like stealing 'culture from colonised indigenous peoples'. Taking some of that knowledge and transforming it is not. I have a friend whom likes to trip sit, he does not call himself a shaman nor tries to be one but likes serving other people, I believe this to be an appropriate integration.

Love

This is a very beautiful thought out desire about the self

This is a good point i would like to expand upon.

It is important to get these definitions correct because they are used to describe people with certain abilities.

For example, regarding 'healing ceremonies'; a 'Curandero' is the person who is the fully trained experienced 'real deal'. An 'Ayahuasquero', is someone lacking in some of those skills, but who can make and pour Ayahuasca. A 'Facilitator', is someone who is more like a knowledgeable sober 'sitter' type person who helps about with things like helping people walk to the toilet, etc.

Also, a Curandero is a term that applies to Amazonian Curandismo, so people should TRY to stop calling them 'Shaman', even if some Curandero's give themselves the 'Chaman', title.

It's important because it describes the abilities of those workers accurately, and that is why they have different titles. For example you wouldn't call a computer shop worker a computer programmer, would you?

And of course, you wouldn't expect a computer shop worker to have the same skills and abilities that a computer programmer has!

It is important to understand the difference, talk in facts, and to eliminate as much 'fluff' as possible.

I like to view it this way.



and this way .


The generalisation of the term shaman seems not to be started by new age people (like someone wrote in this thread).
A rough translation from Wikipedia (non english) :
"the term(shaman) was already used in the 19th century for "spiritual experts" of other cultures "

Probably the EASIEST thing to do is simply 'ask' when a person says 'Shaman', of which culture they are talking about. That would then simplify understanding whether it was a Shaman using a drum in deepest Siberia, or a Curandero working with plant spirits, in the Amazon.

These are big differences, so the need for clarity is imperative, even if they seek a similar outcome!

As the saying goes, 'knowledge is power': Less 'fluff', MOAR FACTS!

.

I think you're missing the point. Curandero's work to heal sick people using specifc techniques. They are not priests telling you to believe in God, but people with skilled 'abilities', that they actually WORK with. So, like any 'job', if you want to know how they do it, it's usually easiest to learn from them. They don't go selling themselves, as much as people seek them out.




I don't understand what you're trying to say. If someone wants to understand a traditional skill, they expect it as true as possible to the original-and don't usually expect a modern day hippy twist to it. Leave traditional skills alone, for they are living history!

If you think a hippy twist is the way forward, then that's ok. But for the sake of understanding, please make it clear to people that you're screwing with a tradition, and at least try and explain why you feel you need to do this.

kolorit there are losers out there that just want to come off special and unique claiming to be a shaman. Go out and explore the psychedelic community and tell me I'm wrong. Its not that I'm trying to be mean. I know these people.



I made a mistake starting this thread.

.

I wouldn't say that, Bear, a few ideas got a good airing, and those who come along later will have a lot to digest. Besides, as a famous musician once sang:

I got to know some of these people too.
And I see lots of them on the internet.
Other people might think the same way about me.

But what exactly is a Loser, Running Bear?

And why do you think, are these "losing" people wanting to "come off" special and unique?

what does "come off" even mean, in a metaphysical context?
aren't you also responsible for the way that people come off at you?

I'm not going to argue. I hate being mean to people.

Sorry if i hurt your feelings.