What are your thoughts on people who are diagnosed as having some form of psychosis: Substance induced, Bi-polar, Schizophrenic or experiencing a Spiritual Crisis.

I know that at first glance psychedelics some of the above cases can worsen their condition.
But removing what science and society told us about sanity and being normal, should psychedelics be used from these people.
Can they help them coping with a Spiritual Crisis, can they be a catalyst for dealing with their inner demons?

I don't want to discuss the medical and neuropsychiatric point of view. Let's just create an alternate world where these psychotic illnesses weren't considered illnesses but calls for help.

Lets get creative with this topic. I believe this can be entertaining and a beneficial debate on understanding our psyche.

Hey ZonSun. Really good topic! I'm 'Bipolar' and have had 3 episodes of 'psychosis'. None were in temporal proximity to use of psychedelics, and use of them in no way worsened the 'condition'.

The only research I've read is the link to cannabis use. Upshot: The correlation of cannabis use with medically diagnosed psychosis is 10%. That is to say, of those who experienced psychosis while using cannabis, only 10% can be attributed to that use.

So, in my case, the chances that all 3 episodes could have been caused by cannabis use are 1 in 10,000.

What is 'psychosis', anyway? Officially it means a 'break with reality'. Ok then, so what is reality? Basically it's just an agreement; a majority belief. I now understand this majority belief to be ego-based illusion, and therefore a false(if sincerely-held) belief in what reality 'is'.

Now, if the psychosis is ego-based (the subject is uniquely 'special' in their newly-perceived world), it is probably not a spiritual experience but more likely to be a deeper level of illusion. Paranoid schizophrenia fits this description. On the other hand, the 'episode' may be characterised by switching from a scientific rationalist viewpoint to belief in higher states of existence and interconnected consciousness.

So far so good. Now say, the person acquires the 'ability' to communicate with beings and objects others cannot perceive, while still able to navigate the 'agreed' world, is this psychosis? I would say no. Regardless of the means of transition(psychedelics, 'illness' ), it is just as valid a reality as anyone elses.

I have a very spiritual friend who takes medication for schizophrenia to make his life more manageable. He is an expert in every single Bhuddist tradition(he's a freaking encyclopedia), and communicates with voices who give him advice, cautions and even joke with him. When he took DMT he got to see visual representations of them. That was it. He's glad he did back then but is strictly substance-free these days. He explains this choice very simply: "I don't need a helping hand to experience 'real' reality - just lucky I guess"!!! So it certainly didn't exacerbate his condition, merely reinforced his already 'augmented' reality. Food for thought.

I think we all have different vulnerabilities for different "disorders" and we/our body react/s to stress. A psychedelic experience can lead to, when there is no functional coping of what is going on, a lot of stress which might trigger a psychosis in one person and something else in another person, depending on their different and individual vulnerabilites. But this experience is just an event, a stimulus, it could also be induced by any other high-stress situation/experience.

Nevertheless, I think that psychedelics can help to get rid of ones delusional rigid beliefs because they loose the affection and firm conviction. BUT I also think, that it is important to be guided by a professional through this process and it will mostly take more than one session. Especially the integration in the "sober" mind seems to be very important.




A main fator of a "delusion" (which is mostly understood as psychosis but is just a symptom of a cluster) is that the affected person is not flexible in his/her beliefs anymore. There is no "maybe", there is just this 100% firm conviction of what they percieve is true. Strictly speaking, whenever I am 100% sure of any belief, I experience a small delusion. Some delusions are socially tolerated and some are even socially shared, but this is another topic.
We all have a different mindset (and the number of different mindsets correlates to the number of living people on earth), which let some people appear like crazy or wired, and we are free to "believe" what ever we want, but some people suffer from their rigid beliefs because they can lead to f.e. distrust, disorientation,.. and result in fear, grief and suffering.



tseuq

Really well put, tseuq! I salute you. You are evidently well-studied in psych, and Bhuddism
Indeed, some delusions are even encouraged!! Believing anything too strongly is dangerous. Believing something 100% almost certainly violates Heisenberg's famous principle anyways. Again, different subject.
When these tools become widely available to(properly qualified) therapists, the world will be a better place, 100%

They are all different and should not be assumed to be the same. Spiritual crisis may simply be an 'awakening', not an illness.



If we use the analogy that sane people who sail, always return to a safe harbour and moorings, the concern is that Schitzophrenic people already lack the ability to return to the harbour and need help, so giving them a psychadelic would make this even more difficult.

However some people might think that depending on the severity of the illness, a psychadelic used appropiately in the correct set, setting, dose, with a trained guide, like a Curandero, might, just 'might', be able to help that person. Who knows, unless it is tried? Maybe it will help install an updated neural 'operating system'??

However, it may make things worse, but it depends on whether one decides it is a risk worth taking. It depends on so many factors indeed!

Qutoing form wikipedia


I guess the problem relies on the concept of sanity and reality, so different societies view people differently and our western civilization is strictly against "free belief" I know that sometimes delusional/paranoid people can become dangerous but the problem I think is these people become dangerous because they are afraid of this type of lifestyle that the westerners dictate upon us.

By the way isn't this the reason why the counter revolution of the '60 was suppressed. Our government is afraid of free spirits and the people with unique purposes, attitudes and beliefs. They and our family implement on us the concept of "our-self" who is me. I guess these problems causes our language and the way we choose to call things and give meaning to the things. I mean a cat is a cat but what does the word cat meaning without the animal. Or what does a random word mean like "askgebrisht" without associating anything to it.

I think that tseuq explained very very well what these disorders are and how they are caused but the way sanity and reality are perceived by the majority is not a good argument for psychiatrist to put someone on hardcore antipsychotics.
I mean ICDM 10 diagnoses someone with extraordinary religious beliefs differently from someone who creates those beliefs themselves. What's the difference.

I guess if we could communicate in a different "out of this world" form there wouldn't be such misunderstandings.

Ganesh I did not see your post before I posted this reply, I categorized or put them in the same line because our society sees them that way as being the same.

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That's it kolorit, this is not only the case with psychotic "illnesses" but also other type of illnesses, the view point of the people changes drastically the moment they know anything about you.

I have experienced some pretty extreme anxiety on cannabis when I was in the wrong place, so extreme I could not even think clearly and became delusional and paranoid. I know that this can be common with weed for some people but for me it was the first time and it was related with the feeling that the people that shouldn't know I am high know it.

But this is where I think that the society is dictated to perceive things the way they do(in the box) because of the bad correlation "these words" have.
And I fully feel you when you say the moment you started sharing things with people they started alienating and isolating you. I shared some pretty weird beliefs and spiritual practices I did with a group of people that I had to spend the next 3 years with them, and guess what only 2 or 3 of those people actually tried to understand me. And as you can guess those 3 years were not as fun as they should have been (I am talking about high school).

This song is just phenomenal when talking about reality and thinking what "words mean"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLfCnGVeL4

This is freaking me out! I was just ruminating on this thought last night. I had my first psychotic episode yesterday as I was reading this thread realizing my other selves have the same questions as me because we are all one! That is when things got really frightening. I came to the conclusion sanity is reality. It all went downhill from there until I meditated until I fell asleep.

I am a pot smoker and I have been ever since I was 15 I am 29 now. Drugs mostly recreational were always a part of my life in moderation of course. It was always to feel good and relax. I think if I weren't open to say marijuana or mushrooms I would have never found DMT. Things have definitely changed after my experience a week ago I am far more sensitive to everything. I cannot drink anymore, I cannot smoke anymore it seems because it just brings on a super awareness that I find very uncomfortable. I am aware of the other thing that is in the room that cannot be seen.

Yesterday after smoking maybe a 1/4 of a small joint I felt a presence. It was very similar to the presence in DMT space. It was very alien too. I felt it wanting to be one with me like it did in DMT space, being at one means going into a meditative state for me. I have learned to meditate my butt off especially at night to stop the absolutely RIDICULOUS thoughts that are coming to my head. I think I reach a certain level of psychosis when I come to the frightening truth that I am just talking to myself on this message board, at work, my grandma, the asshole on the street is not an asshole anymore its the unconsciousness that I have, its the fact that I know but I still react when there is no need for any action at all. I just see a part of me in everything and it seems like this infinite fractal and that is very hard to deal with.

Re-remembering why you are here seems to be the whole point of this life. I have these thoughts or truths from outside of me with each interaction in my life like: What is the whole delusions of grandeur thing. Is society telling us as individuals we are not worth anything unless we produce enough to have anything that can be bought? That seems insane to me now. We are all special because we are all one and no one is more special then the other.

Everything seems to happen at night if I am not in bed by 10 or 11 I get uncomfortable and feel like my thoughts are everywhere. When I close my eyes I see colors shapes and patterns. I used to freak out when this first started happening but now I assure myself I am not crazy. Now I can understand what it is to be shaman it takes a certain amount of courage to alter your view so dramatically but once your perception is altered it takes a lot of meditation to stay sane. We have 2 states love and fear, insanity or oneness. I chose oneness.

I wonder why it is I panic at night I wonder if this happens to anyone else.

Good topic by the way.

I wonder if it is not the 'patient' who has a problem yet more so us, in our response to their 'condition'. Labelling someone as sick only reinforces the notion something about them is wrong. How is our own subjective reality any more right from another?

Reminds me of a doco called 'The Horse Boy', about a severely autistic boy whose parents take him on a journey, to Mongolia, to find a nomadic tribe with a shaman. Got to really watch it to see the transformation, really makes you question our western way of medicating.

At the end of the day, all I really know is everything I was sure about, now I am not.

Love

It depends on how you define it.

Everyone is slightly nuts from 'time to time', as we are bound to fluctuate mentally.

Someone may have traces of 'psychosis', but still able to function fine in life, and even become a better person because of using it!

For instance, a Shaman may have what people might describe as 'psychosis', but he is actually a strong person who is just sensitive to the spirit world, and has worked with it and gained wisdom. A bit like a 'regular person' who works through the effects of a psycho-mimetic substance, becoming temporarily 'altered', to come away from the experience with a more positive mindset, that may help him in life.

> So when people talk of 'Psychosis', they usually use that term to describe someone who is affected by it in quite a severe way, that they cannot seem to overcome unaided. Such a person should definately avoid consuming stimulants or Cannabis, which are known to exaggerate the symptoms of psychosis in prone individuals.

In contrast, it 'may' be possible that correctly administered psychadelic substances may help with mental neurosies. It is important to differentiate psychosis, from psychadelic experience.

IME these types of materials can very well indeuce such a state for example a spiritual crisis or a spontaneous spiritual experience as was the case with me
however I don't think that once I was Moved into that state of prolonged psychosis/paranoia/delusion these materials would be in anyway helpful at that point I felt that I had gotten the jump start that I then needed to parlay into a lifestyle change nor do I think they would help an already psychologically unstable person

Catysts for change not reactants to be added to an ongoing, potentially volitile reaction

This thread reminds me of a quote by John see Lily in his book The Deep Self where he speaks of using Lsd in the isolation tank but warns that we should limit the use of this drug & hedge our valuation of insights made under its effects because "we typically overvalue our chemically induced states " this idea reminds me of a quote by John see you lily in his book the deep self where he speaks of using LSD in the isolation tank but warns that we should limit the use of this drug because we typically over value our chemically induced states so it seems as if perhaps the OP is viewing these materials through a sort of fractaline rose colored glasses

I can throughly appreciate the implications of glutamate release and the mass-interconnecting effects of psychs. But I think integration requires a already solid reality to inegrate those exp's into

I think building a solar array on a structure of vines haha

I think it's really important to be crystal clear about definitions. For example, a tough spiritual awakening ISN'T psychosis. It may be a difficult experience that was encountered because a person took too much of a Psychadelic, but they just got a strong trip from it, that is all. They will just have to take their time to integrate that.

What i call psychosis, is to include stuff like when you hear voices in your head, or think everyone is out to get you. You might be paranoid and feel persecuted. Stimulants and high THC engineered types of Cannabis, are renowned for these nasty side effects. If you got that from a Psychadelic then i would be surprised, unless they were some sort of designer chemical or dosed at a stupidly dangerous level, in which case you would expect some obvious consequences.

Yes sorry I agree that definitions are extremely important I should've been much more clear

"however I don't think that once I was Moved into that state of prolonged psychosis/paranoia/delusion these materials would be in anyway helpful at that point I felt that I had gotten the jump start that I then needed to parlay into a lifestyle change nor do I think they would help an already psychologically unstable person "

Should be read as
however I don't think that once I moved into that( I Trassitioned into a )state of prolonged psychosis/paranoia/delusion these materials (at this point having already given me a "deep and effective spiritual experience" )would be in anyway helpful at that point I felt that I had gotten the jump start that I then needed to parlay into a (sustained) lifestyle change nor do I think they would help an already psychologically unstable person
My apologies for this poor communication
cannabis combined with some mushrooms and a whole lot of psychological stress plus possible clinical b12 deficiency gave me

delusions of persecution hearing voices paranoia these things actually in me persisted for maybe 2 1/2 to 3 months after the initial experience without taking any more drugs whatsoever however with the important part was Gifted to me at the very onset of this psychosis.
The psychosis was like a reduction in my ego to the point that my unconscionable behavior became unbearable I staid of explainable I couldn't tell myself it was no big deal anymore because I had a massive shift in values

Maybe I misunderstood your question though the lense of my experiance gave me a different look; by coincidence I had already gotten the benefit(of the hallucigens ) right from the start of the episode.

Sorry for this long digression from the topic I just saw myself a lot when I read this
In the end I have similar views to ganish ya gotta have some semblance of coherent reality from which to base your sober life lest the craziness of these experiance won't do much to set you on the right path

Thank you Orbiting, for making that clarification.

Indeed what you say makes a lot of sense, and the safest advice to anyone suffering from any mental issues, is to avoid, or be very careful with trying to cure them with psychoactive substances, unless you have someone knowledgeable who can support you, in case.

It's just that everyone is so different, and if they read this, they'll understand the complexities that can be involved in such an illness.

I can truly relate to this, after experiencing a deep trance like state after several hours of deep meditation, after a long heavy use of cannabis. I experienced something that I can't understand that changed me forever, but the fear to let go of my selfish beliefs and egotistical views made me go paranoid and delusional. I couldn't integrate the knowledge that I gained into my life and it made me suffer the consequences. So I sought help, not the best but I came back to where I was before, only now I think "I can call myself less attached to materialism" and for sure am less ego driven. I will make a new topic explaining in detail every little bit of my life that happened during these years and the rollercoaster of "good" and "bad" that I experienced.

Now after years later I "think" have much more knowledge, on spirituality and am truly ready to embark into being a being who is truly emerged with the spirit world. I can't wait for my first psychedelic experience. I hope I can get where I was before just now more clearheaded and focused on what people might call "ZEN".
And if someone can enlighten me about transpersonal psychology, is it a legit part of psychology or just some new age nonsense, as I really want to go through the effort and get a degree on transpersonal psychology. As I think that, that is what I am meant to know.

I can relate with kuantumkitty that after that experience I couldn't smoke cannabis anymore.
But kuantumkitty just keep calm and try to focus on the side of thinks you think you understand and don't wander off to far away into the unknown as this can lead to some serious inner troubles.