As I write this, I'm sitting in a Starbucks at 5:30 am because I got tired of laying in bed. Four nights in a row I've gotten NO sleep. Apparently my brain does shut down from time to time because at some point I'll notice that I no longer know what's being talked about on the radio. It never is more than 15 minutes though.

Since I got off methadone this has been the case. 4 nights is the longest but stretches of 2 or 3 punctuated by a night of restless sleep has been the norm since late September.

I suffered bad insomnia as a young man and it was partially responsible for me flunking out of high school. In my late twenties I learned a breathing trick that would help me sleep and i started sleeping fine.

The problem back then was perseverant thought. With the breathing I could turn it off and drift into peaceful sleep. Now however it seems a purely physical thing. There are no thoughts to stop, other than normal stuff. I actually thought for awhile that since I moved indoors and that relieved a major component if my depression that having positive thoughts were so novel time that I just needed to adjust to having a certain excitement about living. Now, i dont know.

I've tried kratom and valerian and even thought about getting back on juice, but I worked too hard to do that. I know methadone wd takes a long time but COME ON! I'm functioning okay cognitively and not suffering a depression, per se, but feel like utter crap. If I was a horse, they'd take pity and shoot me.

Advice?

Valerian for me makes my body rest-ish, but not the mind, that keeps going.
I feel for you man, my advice is not tuned to your situation (never been there), but for things that I feel is out of my reach I tend to believe that the body knows, the body knows better than me, I trust in the bodies own deep intellect how to restore itself.

Kava kava (Piper methysticum) can do wonders, as can Gamma-Amino Butyric acid.

I recommend marijuana, kava, valerian root, and dextromethorphan/Doxylamine succinate in combination. (Please research safety information regarding these combinations), which has worked well for me in the past when dealing with insomnia.

I know it's not my place to say, but I would avoid going back to methadone, it's a terribre addiction.

I think there may be other issues causing your problem which are unrelated to ceaseation of methadone maintenance, maybe having a chat with your medical care provider could be benneficial.

-eg

You have a 100% of my sympathy, man. Insomnia is just awful and something I've suffered from on and off for 15 years. In my worst phases I was down to about 2 hours a night and really wondering if I was going to go insane. There's no way of describing how bad that is to someone unless they've gone through it. I've tried almost every cure under the sun with fairly limited success.

My ways of coping with it now:

- don't drink caffeine apart from to wake me up in the morning first thing
- don't drink much alcohol at night
- if I sleep really badly one night, the next night I take 10mg of diazepam. That will ensure I sleep well the next night, am calm the following day and then sleep well the following night. Usually after that it will get worse again day by day but I hold out at least 7 days before taking another diazepam.

I'll watch out to see what other people say here. BTW just recently tried L-Theanine in the daytime and melatonin at night but couldn't detect any noticeable effect.

My sympathies as well. I like the advice about not drinking caffeine or alcohol. I'd also avoid marijuana later than midday.

I note that it is not mental and is physical for you. That strikes me as noteworthy. A hot tub and/or sauna can really help with the physical aspect. As can vigorous exercise at midday.

I think there is a hot tub and sauna place in Portland.

I'm hesitant to recommend any of the Kava/Valerian/benzos, but they can be useful in a pinch and with discipline.

Thanks.

Yes caffeine and alcohol avoidance are being observed. Cuppa joe in the morning to get moving and that's it. Not much of a drinker if alcohol anyway. I'm not really even smoking much pot ( for me) because it makes me feel a little off right now. I only smoke in the day now. And just sugar leaf with a lower THC % (although the strains are 20+% so...

I think a soak sounds like a good remedy. Some mag salt in there.. Ohhhh...yes. Why didn't I think if that? Thanks! RLS has been a bitch and that would help.

Last time I kicked methadone, in 1999, I spent six months awake, began hallucinating and ran back to a needle. That ain't happening this time.

Not sure if this constitutes sensible and responsible medical advice, so take with a grain of salt and a spoonful of your own research and checking, but here goes:

One time after reading about the sysnergistic effect of muscimol on diazepam, I thought: "hey I don't have diazepam, but here it says that the same synergy also works with valerian... Hmm got to check this out."

So I made a cup of valerian tea and added a quarter cap of a dried fly agaric. I drank the tea while having an animated discussion with a friend who was visiting me.

Next I remember is waking up sometime in the middle of the night, sitting on my couch, with all the lights on. I physically and psychologically felt wonderful and refreshed, but mentally puzzled about what had happened. After a few minutes it began to dawn on me that I had drank the tea while talking with my friend.

The next day, when I inquired with that friend, he told me that I had suddenly fallen in a deep sleep. After some time, he had quietly left and closed the door behind him, but left the lights on.

So, from personal experience, the combination of muscimol and valerian makes for an excellent sleep potion. One cup of valerien tea could not have done that by itself and neither a quarter cap of dried fly agaric.

I read that there are similar synergies with other herbals that work on the GABA system, but I have no experience with most of those, let alone in combination with muscimol.

Very true, i have no idea why people take it to fall asleep.



Depends on the kava. A good tongan Kava will keep you up and not make you tired at all.
Other kavas such as Nene are very good as a sleeping aid.

I personally have found a cheap way to combat insomina: Dimenhydrinate aka gravol. Anti Motion Sickness Pills with a rather good risk to benefit ratio. They make me sooo tired.

Melatonin, passionflower tincture, and possibly some skullcap tincture. Those three things helped me sleep soundly when I was sleeping off and on for months due to quitting heroin and kratom.

Biggest thing and usually under-utilized is a solid exercise regimen, to where you're in intermittent pain and/or sweating/ spent, really pushing into the territory of "man, this sucks, I just want to stop". Exercises is so huge, can't say it enough, because for me personally it 'literally' saved my life. It's no automatic fix, but it will greatly rebuild you over time. It's one of the most powerful medicines I know, it just takes considerable effort and consistency and a strong will. Many people have odd associations about people that exercise or workout - 'healthnut', 'jock', 'meathead', such silly labeling. Exercise will change your life.

Everyones definition of a 'clean diet' seems to vary, everyone having a variance in ideals when it comes to those terms, but lots of water, whole foods from the earth, protein, whole vege/fruit smoothies, etc. This in combination with a strenuous exercise regimen will completely overhaul your physiology and life. Won't get into details, because everyone's life and body are different, so a 'clean diet' will vary. I could explain what i've done over the months for the most part, but then again - you're not me heh, so.

Hope you can find a niche and a way to work through this.

As always, when challenged with some difficulty no matter what it may be, I know I can find good advice here on the Nexus thank all, words could never put the justice the appreciation I have for this forum and the people on it.

Well I cheated a little bit today and excepted the offer of a milligram of alprazolam (which I'm beginning to feel, I may have to come back and edit this for xanaxisms ). I know this to simply be a stopgap/Band-Aid measure and by no means something I would rely upon. I told my doctor once that I could count, at the time, over 97 attempts I'd made to kick opiates nne of which were successful at that point, and frankly do it again – which was true, but have gone through withdrawal with benzodiazepines twice and would never, ever get addicted to those things again it was the most terrifying experience of my life. So yeah, this is a one-shot deal. Also a small bit of the medical strain catered to helping with sleeplessness should tell me to catch a few zzz's coming up here real soon.

-fascinating pitubo- I know where I can harvest at this time a bunch of muscaria. You just try the caps as per the information it's widely available? How big was the I mean they can vary from well, quite rightly. My limited experience with muscaria caps leads me to believe that that may be a decent option.

-onli, I reflect your sentiments on Valaria and it's really pretty useless except for mild anxiolytic and is good for daytime use. My experience with diphenhydramine is it provides a pretty intolerable groggy feeling for me the next day, it can be useful though.

- Tatt, I think your ideas probably would be most effective with what I'm facing considering I think a lot of it does have to do with postacute withdrawal.

You're so absolutely right about exercise, anytime anybody asks me how I did it that's one of the first things I tell them is stay active and keep the good diet. Just below taking care of material and social and spiritual needs. The rub here is that I've allowed myself to get so dry such a drag ass place physically that it is somewhat of a monumental task to actually motivate myself to do it.

I've also been neglecting my diet pretty severely. Honestly those two things along with staying active I think will take care of this in the long run. And maybe hopefully the application I love benzo for a legitimate use may help get me over that hump and allow me to move into a phase more closely aligned to health.

I'll continue to document my progress, successes and failures and working through this and working into and living a life free of dependence. Done this many many many times before but I've never had I really would you get in the amount of confidence in long-term success the way I do now.

And community is my foundation that allows me to do this and of course this is a big part of that community. Thank you all of your help this man valuable.

Good night, thank God for marijuana, and I'll give Xanax a reprieve from condemnation for a few hours. Nighty night!

Yeah like tat said and you seem to be aware of, diet and exercise for sure. Along with the no caffeine. I can't seem to fall asleep for about 12 hours give or take after consuming caffeine.

Another thing is using electronics like the computer, phone, and tv late at night. If I don't tune out of all that stuff at least an hour or two before I hit the hay, this gives me some serious difficulties falling asleep. Apparently this is linked to the fact that this sort of artificial light messes with your brain's signals to start secreting melatonin (source: Blue Light has a dark side - Harvard Health).

And my mother gave me a great tip, as a fellow worrier and insomniac. When you are lying in bed thinking of all the stuff you still need to get done and worrying about this or that, write it down on a piece of paper and tell yourself that you'll worry about it tomorrow.

Yes, that is true. It is important to take it rather early, or use it to reset "" your biorythm. Im worried that you might slip back into benzo addiction because you believe you have a good reason to start again because of your insomnia. Datura inoxia also works nicely for sleep, but a single seed CAN contain too much and be very dangerous so i stopped. Maybe there are standardized nightshade extracts available somewhere.

I believe in your case, you are stressed out and can't sleep because of it. Resolving the underlying problem might be best but can be hard to do of course. Getting at least some sleep might be important as not to make matters worse.

If you feel the urge to benzo u, rather try kava, which is a bit similiar to benzos but not as addictive.

Good luck, man...insomnia is a pest

Methadone "withdrawals" can last for months, and one of the effects is it dramatically break your sleeping pattern which was relying on such strong opiates for such a long time.
As you probably know, don't give up, your boby and brain hcemistry needs to adjust. Don't fall back, maybe its just a couple more months before freedom.
I know kratom help for restless leg and in combination with canabis, esp. oral canabis ( that last a good number of hours) I can get a good quality of sleep.
Apparenetly you tried that and it didn't work ? how was the kratom used, was it good quality ? which strain was it ?
Alcaloids tend to vary in them and as Obliguhl pointed for kava too (which I didn't know as of yet ), some kratom like white sumatra vein or also green in general tend to keep one going, while some red vein like the red borneo tend to be more of a sleep aid and also numbing the body out a bit more ... which is surely what you look for I imagine ..
There are such "strains to effects" charts that explain them.
Now kava kava, but also amanita muscaria ( you can simply cold extract the actives in disltilled water, adding a few drops of vinegar of lemon juice to acidify a bit the pH, or grape juice ) have also on low doses some amazing medicinal properties. We are talking a bout low doses here, a few grams is enough, and this may help experience relaxation, sometimes it can knock out poeple to sleep but careful with higher doses can after the sleep can start the delirium too ( I don't use benzo or sleeping pills in general but I love having natural tools on hand) .
Valerian help to soothe a bit the mood but that's it.
Datura inoxia, 3 seeds is enough, so as microdose, was working as sleep aid.
Actually Obliguhl, could you say the active substance in your anti motion sickness pills ? is it related to tropanes at all ?

Now you probably know but as your body is readjusting and re-balancing ( thats why at worst now take kratom but no oterh strong opiates so you're not going throgh all of this for nothing ), exercizes such as work out, all sports you like during the day, as well as sauna, steam bath, or if you can warm epsom slat bath with help both detox and sleep more, or at least relax better. It is known that the withdrawal can be shorten using as innocent methods too as baths ( epsom salts help detox the body through skin )and exercize.

I know most of these options seems and are - to some extent - very mild, but if you find maybe a combination of some, it may make your life easier.

Hey null. Sorry about your situation, and hope it relents soon.

The only thing that I've seen help time and time again for insomnia not already mentioned is a solid orgasm. Strange advice maybe, but a good masturbation session might help.

Don't mean to go too far off topic, just want to comment on kava:

After review of the pharmocological action regarding the compounds in kava it really is quite diverse, the norepinephrine/dopeamine reuptake inhibition may have stimulant effects, while the GABA and cannabinoid receptor agonism may have seditive effects

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Pharmacodynamics
The following pharmacological actions have been reported for kava and/or its major active constituents:

Potentiation of GABAA receptor activity (by kavain, dihydrokavain, methysticin, dihydromethysticin, and yangonin).

Inhibition of the reuptake of norepinephrine (by kavain and methysticin) and possibly also of dopamine (by kavain and desmethoxyyangonin).

Agonism of the CB1 receptor (by yangonin).[7]

Inhibition of voltage-gated sodium channels and voltage-gated calcium channels (by kavain and methysticin).

Monoamine oxidase B reversible inhibition (by all six of the major kavalactones).

Other effects include significant reduction of the inhibitory effects of muscimol (a GABAA receptor agonist) in the solitary nucleus of the brain stem of rats (by "kavalactones or dihydrokavain" ) , and elevation of dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens of rats (by high concentrations of kavain and desmethoxyyangonin).[4]

In addition to the above, receptor binding assays have revealed direct interactions of leaf extracts of kava (which appear to be more active than root extracts) with the GABA (i.e., main) binding site of the GABAA receptor, the D2 receptor, the μ- and δ-opioid receptors, and the H1 and H2 receptors.[8][9] Weak interaction with the 5-HT6 and 5-HT7 receptors and the benzodiazepine site of the GABAA receptor was also observed.[8]

Potentiation of GABAA receptor activity may underlie the anxiolytic effects of kava, while elevation of dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens and agonism of the μ-opioid receptor likely underlie the moderately euphorigenic effects the plant can produce.[10] However, failure of the GABAA receptor inhibitor flumazenil to reverse the anxiolytic effects of kava in mice suggests that an alternative mechanism may be responsible for this effect.[11]

Heavy, long-term use of kava has been found to not reduce ability in saccade and cognitive tests, but has been associated with elevated liver enzymes.[12]-Wikipedia

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Again, I hope you find relief and feel better.

-eg

+1. Hot bath, followed by masturbation/sex, followed by warm milk, followed by reading a book in bed.

P.S Null, were you drinking coffee while sitting in starbucks at 5.30am?

Again, thanks for all the great replies. I know I'm not alone in dealing with this, hopefully others will find good advice in this thread.

Well, not that I'm going to resort to such desperate measures again anytime soon , but modern pharmacology kicked insomnias ass and I fell out for 14 hours last night, uninterrupted. To respond to an earlier concern, no. I will never get close to even developing a tolerance for benzos again. My detox experience with those was such absolute hell that they scare a drug addict like me.

As for kratom, it works, but I'm very concerned about it just prolonging things. Not to completely shoot it down, but it's something of a hot potato.

As for the orgasm suggestion, well yeah. Won't get into specifics, but all orgasms do is alleviate boredom at this juncture.

I really think just forcing myself into higher gear, being more active and improving diet will improve the situation. Infrequently applied plant aids as well, and self care like periodic soaks. Found a hot tub at my local community center up the street I can access for $4.50!

Again, I think this will be a useful thread, maybe it should move down to advice for healing?

And yes hug , I was caffing up at Barf***s at 5 am. Sue me. It's the only place open then and at the time it caffeine or death.
I doubt I'll erase the morning coffee, that's as much a part of me as my right hand.

Now is the time to harvest fly agarics, so go out and collect a stash while you can. Break the stem off any finds and look carefully for signs of burrowing larvae, who seem to crawl through the stem into the cap. If there are too many, don't bother with that specimen, as the worms will turn the cap into a bubbling mush as you try to dry it. Worst case is when the worms crawl out of a liquified cap into a pristine one and spoil that one too. Best practice is to collect only the good caps and to cut these into slices and lay them to dry on absorbent paper. After a day or so, the caps should have dried enough for the larvae to not be an issue anymore. Meanwhile you must carefully watch the drying material and take out any parts that show signs of infestation and spoiling. Final drying can be done in an oven on very low heat. Store the dried caps dark and dry.

The quarter cap I used was from a medium cap. Potency varies between different species and different times in the season. You should thoroughly dry the material and grind all to a powder from which you can take standardized amounts. Experiments should start at the low end and amounts can be built up gradually.

The magic of the fly agarics is in the potentiation of other GABA agonists. This allows you to dose much less of these substances and possibly avoid some of their side effects. The terrain is largely unexplored as far as I can tell, so be very careful and do as much research as you can. If you find scientific articles but cannot access the full text, request help here on the forum. Ask your doctor about safety and interactions.

I strongly concur with what has been said earlier: exercise exercise exercise. Making the juices flow is the best help your body can get to flush out the old patterns. With exercise I don't mean going to a gym. I personally don't like the vibes in those places. Nor do I advise you to get trapped in the endorphine-based "runner's high".

Get a pair of good boots and some warm clothes and go hiking in the parks and forests. Incidentally, that is where to fly agarics are. Or get on a bicycle and drop some acid (or shrooms), it's one of the healthiest (both physically and mentally) ways to use drugs that I know of.

Details of diet are IMHO much less important than drinking lots of water. Water and (relaxing) exercise help your body flush out most crap.

After having numbed your senses with opiates for such a long time, you need not only to learn to deal with the pains and agonies of life, you need to in fact learn to appreciate them, something that may be entirely new to you up until this point in your life. Any superficially disagreeable sensation is primarily a sign that you are alive. It is merely an input to your living system, not something to be frightfully evaded. Only when you are dead will all the pain and agony stop. Now is the time to live.

Yes, its dimenhydrinate:



by https://www.erowid.org/pharms/dimenhydrinate/



Yes, and the effects of a particular kava depend on the chemotype.

Thanks for the information on the muscaria, pitubo, I think I'm going to look into that method. It seems a great way to explore them, to find beneficial effects without experiencing the full on delirium of muscimol.

I do walk and hike quite a bit, and mushroom hunting is one of my favorite hobbies I go out several times a week to do so. And if I'm not doing that I don't have a vehicle so I walk pretty much everywhere I go. And dry weather I ride a bike but I'm not a big fan of it in the winters up here. Between the discomfort and getting soaked and the idiocy of drivers it's just something I avoid until the dry months.

I would never in my life of joining a gym to exercise in, even the word brings back horrible memories of PE class. , but by exercise I mean adding a regimen into my life at home. I'm a big fan of isometrics and have found in the past that doing a little strength training takes away a lot of pain, or at least focuses it into something more positive.

Something I'm grateful for every day is that I'm one of the most fortunate people I know who did hard drugs for as long as I did as far as physical damage goes. I know people my age on oxygen tanks, with advanced hepatitis C, HIV, and other debilitating illnesses that leave them crooked shells of human beings. Have you ever seen a crowd of methadonians? I'm actually pretty damn healthy, thanks mom and dad for the genes.

It's just a long road to hoe.